(Thread IKs:
fart simpson)
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Sep 27, 2020 13:07
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that's a mirror
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Sep 27, 2020 13:15
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Antonymous posted:lol ratio'd, it is written like he's in on the joke, it's too on the nose it's a nice confession mike. wait why are you twitting this
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Sep 27, 2020 14:39
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https://twitter.com/asian_bogan/status/1309693688755281921?s=20
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Sep 27, 2020 16:27
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sincx has issued a correction as of 05:31 on Mar 23, 2021 |
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Sep 27, 2020 17:15
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Lmao come on
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Sep 27, 2020 19:24
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Incredible.
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Sep 27, 2020 19:27
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sincx posted:I think people who are denying the existence of the forced incarceration camps--especially when the PRC has admitted to building hundreds of "vocational" facilities--are committing a type II error (as opposed to the type I error from the CHINA BAD posters who lick up every word that comes out of Pompeo's racist imperialist mouth). The camps are not extermination facilities, but they do forcibly confine people against their will. It goes with CCP's MO of "fixing" you mentally. See the Rightists, Puyi etc. The CCP is not through with you until you admit your errors yourself. Although I think making grown-ups learning a new language is near impossible.
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Sep 27, 2020 20:38
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stephenthinkpad posted:It goes with CCP's MO of "fixing" you mentally. See the Rightists, Puyi etc. The CCP is not through with you until you admit your errors yourself. Learning a language takes longer as an adult and you might find it impossible to get rid of bad grammar habits (if you learned something wrong at first) and an accent but w/ a teacher and immersion it is possible for basically everyone. Like a lot of chinese speakers with near native english still gently caress up the gender of pronouns all the time b/c chinese doesn't gender pronouns in speech, that might be set in the brain after you're a kid The idea of a massive program to teach people Mandarin in China doesn't seem too malicious to me, unless Uighur gets forbidden. Seems like the goal is to better connect rural people in Xinjiang to the rest of the country, which is a positive way to fight separatism. the compulsory internment is the problem Antonymous has issued a correction as of 20:46 on Sep 27, 2020 |
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Sep 27, 2020 20:43
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sincx posted:I think people who are denying the existence of the forced incarceration camps--especially when the PRC has admitted to building hundreds of "vocational" facilities--are committing a type II error (as opposed to the type I error from the CHINA BAD posters who lick up every word that comes out of Pompeo's racist imperialist mouth). The camps are not extermination facilities, but they do forcibly confine people against their will. The question is accurately trying to figure out what is occurring, it isn't a secret that "vocational" detention centers exist but the exact number seems to be broadly changing as are how many are active or not. Supposedly, some new ones are being built but others have been dismantled and there is a "fog of war" what general trend exists. It doesn't help when usually what data exists is bits and pieces and often seems inaccurate. This goes for the shrine issue as well where it is broad statements are made without accessible evidence (terms like "modified" and "destroyed" seem to be used almost an interchangeable). Then there is the second and perhaps bigger issue: does the US really have any moral authority on the issue (which is a big geopolitical pivot occurring right now) in order to do what is wants by using PRC camps as a justification when it operates its own system of ICE facilities in which again people (including children) are detained under frequent human rights abuses? It again goes back to the battle of "whataboutism" where if neither side really has moral authority then there is no "skin in the change" to really support sanctions versus another population. It is why the battle really isn't over if facilities exist or not, they do in some significant number, but if the system and what is occurring gives the US the moral authority it wants over China. (It is exactly the same as the Cold War, where the US was having trouble holding a moral authority over the Soviets despite aggressive Soviet actions in Hungary...because the US was pulling much of the same plays in Latin America while keeping Jim Crow around.)
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Sep 27, 2020 20:46
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They're basically two issues that are conflated because they are always framed as 'what should america do/say about it' and for some reason that framework is inexorably the one people use to discuss it. It's a chinese problem why does america always enter the discussion? Even your post is assuming the problem is geopolitical, how are these two countries going to position themselves. America is performing involuntary hysterectomies, what should South Africa do about it? Well South Africa should stay out of it because blah blah blah. Imagine if anytime you mention america's internment camps you have to bring up Barbados and what they're doing, every loving time. edit: that's not to say america's (government, media) using this story to their own advantage, often with disregard for any truth finding, isn't a political topic. But it's a different one to what the camps are and opposing them. Antonymous has issued a correction as of 20:59 on Sep 27, 2020 |
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Sep 27, 2020 20:56
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Antonymous posted:They're basically two issues that are conflated because they are always framed as 'what should america do/say about it' and for some reason that framework is inexorably the one people use to discuss it. It's a chinese problem why does america always enter the discussion? Even your post is assuming the problem is geopolitical, how are these two countries going to position themselves. It is the issue because the US still has the power (unlike South Africa or Barbados) to directly affect the lives of almost every average Chinese people through sanctions and other geopolitical power moves. It is as simple as that. There are very clearly other stakes here beyond if the camps exist (they do) or if they are bad (they are) but if the US can leverage it over the general Chinese population.
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Sep 27, 2020 21:06
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That can just as easily be applied to China's unwillingness to deal with anything in their region. Their total lack of interest or involvement in the rohingya genocide or the current protests against the Thai monarchy, something a communist state should absolutely be in favor of ending, speaks volumes.
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Sep 27, 2020 21:12
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Grapplejack posted:That can just as easily be applied to China's unwillingness to deal with anything in their region. Their total lack of interest or involvement in the rohingya genocide or the current protests against the Thai monarchy, something a communist state should absolutely be in favor of ending, speaks volumes. Volumes about? I mean again how many regions has benefitted from the US "dealing" with them? That is the thing there are plenty of critiques about China you can make, but this is a two-sided battle with one player still much more powerful than the other one. Ardennes has issued a correction as of 21:24 on Sep 27, 2020 |
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Sep 27, 2020 21:17
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Ardennes posted:It is the issue because the US still has the power (unlike South Africa or Barbados) to directly affect the lives of almost every average Chinese people through sanctions and other geopolitical power moves. It is as simple as that. No I disagree with this entirely. The trade war has had some small effect on Chinese internal economic policy, so maybe you're right that the US is capable, but I'm not entirely convinced the US has the power to stop the camps short of war. Or maybe as you suggest strong enough sanctions. Either way you're fighting collective punishment with a worse collective punishment. So I really strongly disagree with this view, even if it's technically possible. It's simply not how we should frame the issue, and I think it's insane that after the US attempts to change Iranian or North Korean or Iraqi policy through extreme collective punishment and total failure to achieve their goals you think this is naturally how we should talk about China, as a problem for America to solve. Let's free the Chinese by denying them medical supplies! I think it is entirely apt to compare the impetus of American Action Against China to south african action against America, the American ideology that all global problems are America's alone to act as judge jury and executioner is exactly why I think this issue is so hosed to talk about. Disillusion yourself bro. Finally I think China could condemn the US for its internment camps, and certainly could through some economic threats behind it (though may not be in a safe position to do so). But just as conceivably as your call for US sanctions to change China policy, China conciveably could force US to change. But you never call for it, why is that?
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Sep 27, 2020 21:24
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Antonymous posted:No I disagree with this entirely. The trade war has had some small effect on Chinese internal economic policy, so maybe you're right that the US is capable, but I'm not entirely convinced the US has the power to stop the camps short of war. Or maybe as you suggest strong enough sanctions. Either way you're fighting collective punishment with a worse collective punishment. So I really strongly disagree with this view, even if it's technically possible. It's simply not how we should frame the issue, and I think it's insane that after the US attempts to change Iranian or North Korean or Iraqi policy through extreme collective punishment and total failure to achieve their goals you think this is naturally how we should talk about China, as a problem for America to solve. Let's free the Chinese by denying them medical supplies! I clearly said the issue is geopolitical maneuvering, not that the US should issue sanctions. The problem if anything the US is still trying to "manage" the world despite conducting itself the way it has been. It doesn't mean other countries pull crap, but that the US getting directly involved very rarely works out especially in the long-run. If anything, personally, I think the better situation is that neither side is able to dominate the other and can call each other on their poo poo. There is plenty of China to be called on, but at the same time, we need to have to have a frame of reference. We know plenty of about ICE camps in the US...even though no one gives a poo poo about them.
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Sep 27, 2020 21:31
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Yah you're still seeing the camps primarily as an issue of US vs Chinese dominance, and using US as the measuring stick of justice (bad idea). Or is that not what you meant about having to have a frame of reference? Anyway it's not like you alone need to change your opinion. Obviously the US has 'struck gold' in that this story has stuck and gotten so many westerners to think of Xinjiang's detention centers when they hear anything about China, it seems like it stuck stronger than Hong Kong protests or 'China Virus'. Even this thread is shut down with this discussion weekly. It drives me insane that some people detained in central asia is somehow ultimately about American policy on both left and right. Hell Americans don't even know why they are still at war 2 meters away from Xinjiang in neighboring Afghanistan after 19 years, yet they know a lot about this situation. And that's ultimately what I'm saying about there being two political issues inexorably conflated here.
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Sep 27, 2020 21:42
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in conclusion America is a land of contrasts
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Sep 27, 2020 21:52
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Antonymous posted:Yah you're still seeing the camps primarily as an issue of US vs Chinese dominance, and using US as the measuring stick of justice (bad idea). Or is that not what you meant about having to have a frame of reference? It isn't just from an American perspective that the US is using this to its advantage (while sweeping its own abuses) under the rug. Also, I am rejecting the US as an arbiter (at least a sole one of justice), but the US (regardless of the administration in power) will ceaselessly act like it is. They are being conflated here because it is part of a struggle of dominance than honestly is bigger than even the Xinjiang itself. The US specifically has a bit of a rough year economically and some of its authority is slipping which is only heightening the conflict and the rhetoric.
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Sep 27, 2020 21:59
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sincx has issued a correction as of 05:31 on Mar 23, 2021 |
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Sep 28, 2020 03:59
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slow news day, eh
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Sep 28, 2020 04:16
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stephenthinkpad posted:Although I think making grown-ups learning a new language is near impossible. as someone who hit a loving brick wall with my own language learning years ago im inclined to agree its a really easy skill to bullshit as long as youre being nonconfrontational and ive seen enough people who speak korean worse than me but pass for experts on the basis of white privilege to know that drat near any korean news story needs to be double checked in the original korean even the people who are really good at it are usually only really good at the part they regularly practice youd be surprised how little overlap there is between skills like translating and cute tiktok videos and shitposting
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Sep 28, 2020 08:45
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Ardennes posted:It isn't just from an American perspective that the US is using this to its advantage (while sweeping its own abuses) under the rug. Also, I am rejecting the US as an arbiter (at least a sole one of justice), but the US (regardless of the administration in power) will ceaselessly act like it is.
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Sep 28, 2020 08:49
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Antonymous posted:slow news day, eh 99% of Taiwanese news is just showing traffic cams or or showing somebody standing in foot deep water 1% are those funny animated videos
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Sep 28, 2020 09:08
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rudatron posted:American domestic abuses pale in comparison to Chinese abuses, but you're right in that the abuses are treated instrumentally. Ideally, the US would have sanctioned China immediately as soon as the Uyghur concentration camps were established. But it was weakened by pro-China voices inside the US, like yourself, who have infinite apologia and patience for human rights abuses -- so long as it's not done by America lmao do you really believe the US state is moved by the opinions of its citizens? they didnt do poo poo because silicone valley needs the cheap electronics to flow not because a leftie denied the existence/purpose of the camps.
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Sep 28, 2020 09:26
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I'm mostly just poking at ardennes, but you're right. I just find it absurd that you cannot just talk about China, without some apologist popping up with a 'tu quoque Yankee' literally every time something bad comes up. It's obvious distraction tactics.
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Sep 28, 2020 09:34
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Distraction from what? Putting things in context and challenging the narrative of China being some unique and dastardly evil for the sake of evil Rogue state is not apologising for or trying to ignore them.
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Sep 28, 2020 10:13
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rudatron posted:Ideally, the US would have sanctioned China immediately as soon as the Uyghur concentration camps were established. But it was weakened by pro-China voices inside the US, like yourself, who have infinite apologia and patience for human rights abuses -- so long as it's not done by America You're badly underestimating the deterring effect of having spent 40 years making China an essential part of the world economy. It's just a tiny bit harder to sell that yet another round of sanctions against North Korea, Cuba or Iran.
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Sep 28, 2020 10:42
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rudatron posted:Ideally, China would have sanctioned the US immediately as soon as the immigrant concentration camps were established. can anyone explain why this narrative is going to be treated as 'deranged' besides US chauvinism
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Sep 28, 2020 10:53
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china calling out someone for humans rights abuses would be good and a signal that they are committed to being a marxist-leninist state. I am sure this is going to happen soon instead of only calling out countries for hurt chinese feelings
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Sep 28, 2020 10:58
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It seems impossible to have a good faith discussion about China with people who trust American reporting on its official enemies -- as if this information should be treated as any less suspect than the most lurid anticommunist/fascist propaganda from the 20th century for some reason (racism, most likely). The US wants to gin up conflict with China and will do it by any means necessary, including coopting ostensibly lefty concerns about minority rights
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Sep 28, 2020 11:34
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https://i.imgur.com/MJiZHVT.mp4
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Sep 28, 2020 11:35
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The camps are visible from satellite.
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Sep 28, 2020 11:36
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rudatron posted:American domestic abuses pale in comparison to Chinese abuses, but you're right in that the abuses are treated instrumentally. Ideally, the US would have sanctioned China immediately as soon as the Uyghur concentration camps were established. But it was weakened by pro-China voices inside the US, like yourself, who have infinite apologia and patience for human rights abuses -- so long as it's not done by America Maybe China and the US should have sanctioned each other considering 400,000 people a year flow through the ICE system and the US government clearly knows what is occurring in it? We could have easily pushed them on the issue during the trade talks, but we really didn't care that much to be honest. Also, I don't think individual citizens are "holding back" the US from doing squat even from evil guys like me. Personally, I wouldn't actually have a problem with the UN or a neutral third party having observers on the ground in Xinjiang and for rigorous analysis to occur of facilities. Granted, the same should be done for ICE facilities and hopefully, both could get shutdown under international pressure. Ardennes has issued a correction as of 11:49 on Sep 28, 2020 |
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Sep 28, 2020 11:43
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believe fascist China hawks who would throw US Muslims in camps at first opportunity, that China Truly Is Bad
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Sep 28, 2020 11:44
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thats really not a fair comparison republicans would never claim to want they want to teach muslims vocational skills that would violate their moral principles
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Sep 28, 2020 11:45
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I don't know if you realize this, but Chinese immigration policy is must stricter than the US. And even when migrants have work permits, they are almost never granted citizenship, and treated as second class citizens. Recently, a community of black people in China, where thrown out of their rented homes, during the COVID crisis. But sure, China and the US should sanction each other. Less trade with China is in the best interests of the US right now.
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Sep 28, 2020 11:47
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rudatron posted:I don't know if you realize this, but Chinese immigration policy is must stricter than the US. And even when migrants have work permits, they are almost never granted citizenship, and treated as second class citizens. Recently, a community of black people in China, where thrown out of their rented homes, during the COVID crisis. lmao dude the US throws even its own people out on the streets during a pandemic it failed to contain at all (China contained it btw, cope). millions are going to be laid off, lose their health insurance, and be evicted. also SCOTUS is gearing up to strip healthcare from even more millions covered by the ACA. if Americans vote vote by mail the party in power is going to try to disenfranchise them among other minority voters, which is literally their official policy. "second class citizenship" is a stark reality here as with any other fascist state. Maybe with all these problems here China isn't exactly any Amercan's lane, especially when your concern is predicated on sources of information with an ax to grind, to put it mildly.
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Sep 28, 2020 12:03
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Bathtub Cheese posted:lmao dude the US throws even its own people out on the streets during a pandemic it failed to contain at all (China contained it btw, cope). millions are going to be laid off, lose their health insurance, and be evicted. also SCOTUS is gearing up to strip healthcare from even more millions covered by the ACA. if Americans vote vote by mail the party in power is going to try to disenfranchise them among other minority voters, which is literally their official policy. "second class citizenship" is a stark reality here as with any other fascist state. Maybe with all these problems here China isn't exactly any Amercan's lane, especially when it's predicated on sources with an ax to grind, to put it mildly. Dude don't engage with this mouth-breather, just look at the rap-sheet. lmao
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Sep 28, 2020 12:04
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| # ? Apr 27, 2024 22:32 |
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rudatron posted:I don't know if you realize this, but Chinese immigration policy is must stricter than the US. And even when migrants have work permits, they are almost never granted citizenship, and treated as second class citizens. Recently, a community of black people in China, where thrown out of their rented homes, during the COVID crisis. So if the US and China are so similar and there really isn't "moral superiority" on either side, there has to be another solution. You call me "pro-China" but I actually don't really want a world dominated by either country. China has been economic progress and recent years, but it doesn't mean there is also geopolitical cynicism and brutality to what they are doing both inside and outside China. If anything, the better situation is that them and the other regimes out there (Russia, India etc) wear each other down and there should be something better in our future. China has been inroads into Africa (for example) due to the fact that they are the only game in town and/or the deals those countries got from Western institutions were so poor to begin with, but it doesn't mean they deserve to be dominate without competition. Granted, I am usually against sanctions targeting populations (like against Venezuela/Iran) since it amounts to collective punishment.
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Sep 28, 2020 12:04
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