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MassRafTer
May 26, 2001

Fundamentals as sound as the WNBA



Good to see they didn't watch it since the match apparently starts "so drat slow" with nothing happening when one of the first things to happen is Naito repeatedly bashing Evil's brains out on a table. Par for the course regarding complaints about the match.

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forkboy84
Jun 13, 2012

I thought the redtext someone dumped on you was in bad taste and a bit much so here's a corgi instead.

MassRafTer posted:

Good to see they didn't watch it since the match apparently starts "so drat slow" with nothing happening when one of the first things to happen is Naito repeatedly bashing Evil's brains out on a table. Par for the course regarding complaints about the match.

Yeah, it's a really weird take. Did the match go on too long? Sure, I'll buy that. Was there too much shenanigans? I dunno, isn't this just what Gedo does a lot of the time? Naito won the HW belt the first time with interference too. I think if you don't like Gedo's booking that's a fair position but if you do it doesn't seem like much of a deviation. Was the match over with the live crowd? That's indisputable. Was it what you expect from a Dominion main event? Nah, but then again last years main event went down like a lead balloon too. Was the start slow? As soon as Red Shoes forced Bullet Club from ring side it absolutely was not slow. It slowed down after that but not really much slower than an Okada match. I'd prefer EVIL was doing 20 minute matches to 30 minute matches but that's just where we are with New Japan, the expectation is that title matches will not be sprints. You know that going in.

Sure, writing "light booing is a really big reaction" looks silly in isolation but when fans mostly stuck to the "just clap please" message that was strongly advertised around the building for the rest of the show it's not nothing. I think the finish felt flat but most of the match had, relative to the circumstances, strong heat in the building. EVIL did indeed get lightly booed several times. Now I'm biased because the big reveal got me super excited because I absolutely never saw it coming & also sincerely love Dick Togo as a wrestler, super out of left field but in a really interesting way but even forgetting that for a bit I think the match was still good. I don't do star ratings but if I did I'd certainly be closer to ***3/4 or **** than WMOTY calibre. And no, it's not getting treated more lightly just because it's New Japan. That's just a weird comparison (& also there are absolutely people on here who have talked about it as a WMOTYC match, they are bonkers but it happened.)

I expected coming out of this that it'd be the Naito fans who were the most upset but it turns out it's really not.

Lid
Feb 18, 2005

Cabana's legal advice?
I'm bourgeoisie.
I... hit the shitty
firemans carry knee.






dude you aren't the deifier of who did or did not watch a match, especially as you know drat well a lot of people here watched the match and came away with the same view

people think the match was bad, a lot of people do, handwaving them as "well clearly they didnt watch the match par for the course" is dickish bullshit

forkboy84
Jun 13, 2012

I thought the redtext someone dumped on you was in bad taste and a bit much so here's a corgi instead.

Lid posted:

dude you aren't the deifier of who did or did not watch a match, especially as you know drat well a lot of people here watched the match and came away with the same view

people think the match was bad, a lot of people do, handwaving them as "well clearly they didnt watch the match par for the course" is dickish bullshit

Yeah, but there's a difference between an opinion like "match was bad" & a factually incorrect statement like "match started very slow"

MassRafTer
May 26, 2001

Fundamentals as sound as the WNBA


Lid posted:

dude you aren't the deifier of who did or did not watch a match, especially as you know drat well a lot of people here watched the match and came away with the same view

people think the match was bad, a lot of people do, handwaving them as "well clearly they didnt watch the match par for the course" is dickish bullshit

If they actually watched it they should be able to accurately describe what happened in it. Seems logical.

Lid
Feb 18, 2005

Cabana's legal advice?
I'm bourgeoisie.
I... hit the shitty
firemans carry knee.






MassRafTer posted:

If they actually watched it they should be able to accurately describe what happened in it. Seems logical.

They did actually watch it, as did the people also who said nothing happened, because maybe they just see EVIL hitting Naito's head on a table as "oh well that happened" and then ignoring that things didnt happen again for ten minutes and then nothing happening for anoither twenty. Like we're not even talking "oh man they opened with a big spot and then things slowed down" it's "we opened with a heel hitting a faces head into a table". Congratulations to you for saying thats a huge thing everyone should focus on and those who seriously did not care about it clearly arent watching wrestling with your perfect analytical abaility.

MassRafTer
May 26, 2001

Fundamentals as sound as the WNBA


Lid posted:

They did actually watch it, as did the people also who said nothing happened, because maybe they just see EVIL hitting Naito's head on a table as "oh well that happened" and then ignoring that things didnt happen again for ten minutes and then nothing happening for anoither twenty. Like we're not even talking "oh man they opened with a big spot and then things slowed down" it's "we opened with a heel hitting a faces head into a table". Congratulations to you for saying thats a huge thing everyone should focus on and those who seriously did not care about it clearly arent watching wrestling with your perfect analytical abaility.

I suppose it is possible they watched it and didn't pay attention. You are right that could be the reason that review was so inaccurate.

Lid
Feb 18, 2005

Cabana's legal advice?
I'm bourgeoisie.
I... hit the shitty
firemans carry knee.






luckily throught the magic of "having a GDT" in real time from people watching we get to see... well zero posts about the apparently huge impact of EVIL hitting Naito's head into a table had, but a lot on how the biggest things in the match were in the first 30 minutes were Milano and Red Shoes while nothing else was happening. I guess they weren't watching either.

Aye Doc
Jul 19, 2007

my name is john carter



Lid posted:

luckily throught the magic of "having a GDT" in real time from people watching we get to see... well zero posts about the apparently huge impact of EVIL hitting Naito's head into a table had, but a lot on how the biggest things in the match were in the first 30 minutes were Milano and Red Shoes while nothing else was happening. I guess they weren't watching either.

not watching is a time-honored PSP posting tradition

Lid
Feb 18, 2005

Cabana's legal advice?
I'm bourgeoisie.
I... hit the shitty
firemans carry knee.






Aye Doc posted:

not watching is a time-honored PSP posting tradition

fair!

MassRafTer
May 26, 2001

Fundamentals as sound as the WNBA


Lid posted:

luckily throught the magic of "having a GDT" in real time from people watching we get to see... well zero posts about the apparently huge impact of EVIL hitting Naito's head into a table had, but a lot on how the biggest things in the match were in the first 30 minutes were Milano and Red Shoes while nothing else was happening. I guess they weren't watching either.

I have no comment on whether or not the people in the GDT were watching, my comment was about the Bryan and Vinny show. I could be right and they didn't watch, you could be right and they didn't pay attention. The important thing is they said something profoundly stupid.

OctoberCountry
Oct 9, 2012


MassRafTer posted:

I suppose it is possible they watched it and didn't pay attention.

I mean we are talking about Bryan, right?

MassRafTer
May 26, 2001

Fundamentals as sound as the WNBA


OctoberCountry posted:

I mean we are talking about Bryan, right?

He is only the person who described the main event of a Wrestlemania wrong for a decade.

jesus WEP
Oct 17, 2004

OM NOM NOM NOM NOM



Fun Shoe

MassRafTer posted:

He is only the person who described the main event of a Wrestlemania wrong for a decade.
What's the story behind this, it sounds good

MassRafTer
May 26, 2001

Fundamentals as sound as the WNBA


jesus WEP posted:

What's the story behind this, it sounds good

For years Bryan ranted about how boring the HHH/Orton match was and how stupid this big grudge match started with a lock up and WRESTLING. No one cares about the match so it took years for someone to remember that the match actually started with HHH pounding on Orton and Orton hitting an RKO really early. It was a really common Bryan rant too, one he'd use when a grudge match started with wrestling and not brawling.

Gaz-L
Jan 28, 2009


Oh yeah, doesn't HHH hit the Pedigree right away too? Like the idea of hitting the finishers right away and both guys having blown their best ammunition is kinda interesting, but it should be the start to a match that goes less than 10 mins.

Like, I remember the original IWGP US title tournament did something similar with Jay Lethal knowing he basically had to hit the Lethal Injection on Kenny Omega right away or he was hosed... the match went 10 minutes and ended with the OWA because Jay was right, he was hosed.

The Cameo
Jan 20, 2005

Higher, baby
Get higher, baby
Get higher, baby
And don't ever come down



Yeah thatís the match where they do their finishers in the first minute or two and then slowly drag out the next twenty-something minutes. I also think thatís the one where the blood feud had a ďtitle changes hand on a DQĒ instead of doing no DQ to blow off a feud that involved home invasion and Orton knocking Stephanie out and all sorts of nonsense.

It also went on almost right after Taker/Michaels. There might have been a womenís match in between.

edit: speaking of ďtitle changes hand on DQĒ matches, the only good one I can even think of that engages the gimmick as anything more than a vague threat is Orton/Christian, where Christian pissed Orton off enough that he just kicked him in the nuts right in front of the referee and lost the match.

Low Desert Punk
Jul 4, 2012

i have absolutely no fucking money


"if the AEW audience is a bunch of people that have watched WWE all their lives and are now watching AEW because they're sick of Raw and Smackdown, then yes, Jungle Boy probably needs a big win" - Bryan

I wasn't aware there was another type of AEW fan

JOHN CENA
Oct 20, 2006

You don't seem to get it, do you? I'll NEVER give up, not with the power of [MY TIME IS NOW] beside me!


Low Desert Punk posted:

"if the AEW audience is a bunch of people that have watched WWE all their lives and are now watching AEW because they're sick of Raw and Smackdown, then yes, Jungle Boy probably needs a big win" - Bryan

I wasn't aware there was another type of AEW fan

Some of lapsed WCW fans (not too many though because AEWs +50 numbers aren't great), also lots of younger people who got into it because they initially followed BTE because of its place on YT's platform. I think WWE/AEW crossover is a strangely small number, like between 15 and 20%.

HulkaMatt
Feb 14, 2006

CHEERS, LOVE.
THE CAVALYAAAY'S HERE!



MassRafTer posted:

For years Bryan ranted about how boring the HHH/Orton match was and how stupid this big grudge match started with a lock up and WRESTLING. No one cares about the match so it took years for someone to remember that the match actually started with HHH pounding on Orton and Orton hitting an RKO really early. It was a really common Bryan rant too, one he'd use when a grudge match started with wrestling and not brawling.

Oh yeah. "After all of these segments....THEY STARTED WITH A LOCK UP!!!". Said it for years.

Gaz-L
Jan 28, 2009


JOHN CENA posted:

Some of lapsed WCW fans (not too many though because AEWs +50 numbers aren't great), also lots of younger people who got into it because they initially followed BTE because of its place on YT's platform. I think WWE/AEW crossover is a strangely small number, like between 15 and 20%.

That's probably slightly artificially low because it doesn't have a way to reflect people who got sick of WWE completely and thus don't watch the product anymore, but still got into wrestling via WWE.

hunnert car pileup
Oct 28, 2007

the first world was a mistake



Lid posted:

Bryan and Vinny H A T E D Naito v EVIL

Comparisons to Death of WCW and Edge/Orton at Mania. Easily worst NJPW main event in memory.

Naito/Evil wasn't good, but the Muta/Onita deathmatch from August '99 is easily the worst NJPW main event I've ever seen.

njsykora
Jan 23, 2012

Robots confuse squirrels.

Fun and rare instance of Bryan actively challenging Dave on WOR when Dave says Vince never opposed people wearing masks at the tapings which is hilarious levels of bullshit.

Lamuella
Jun 26, 2003

It's like goldy or bronzy, but made of iron.




Low Desert Punk posted:

"if the AEW audience is a bunch of people that have watched WWE all their lives and are now watching AEW because they're sick of Raw and Smackdown, then yes, Jungle Boy probably needs a big win" - Bryan

I wasn't aware there was another type of AEW fan

*waves* hello! I haven't regularly watched WWE products since about 2005, but retained a love of wrestling that I tended to satisfy with indies and New Japan until being absolutely entranced by Double Or Nothing.

Aye Doc
Jul 19, 2007

my name is john carter



JOHN CENA posted:

Some of lapsed WCW fans (not too many though because AEWs +50 numbers aren't great)

people mostly assume that the average lapsed WCW fan is an old fella but I bet there are a lot of kids, pre-teens, and teens who bailed because wrestling completely stopped being cool after WCW died and finally found reason to come back

JOHN CENA
Oct 20, 2006

You don't seem to get it, do you? I'll NEVER give up, not with the power of [MY TIME IS NOW] beside me!


Aye Doc posted:

people mostly assume that the average lapsed WCW fan is an old fella but I bet there are a lot of kids, pre-teens, and teens who bailed because wrestling completely stopped being cool after WCW died and finally found reason to come back

I was a preteen during WCW's height and i'm in my mid thirties now, it's pretty strictly an old demographic.

sleepwalkers
Dec 7, 2008




JOHN CENA posted:

I was a preteen during WCW's height and i'm in my mid thirties now, it's pretty strictly an old demographic.

thatís smack dab in the middle of the 18-49 that networks care about, and 20+ years younger than the average nxt/wwe viewer, pretty sure youíre exactly what op was talking about.

Aye Doc
Jul 19, 2007

my name is john carter



mid 30s is a much different type of old than 50+ especially in tv ratings terms

I believe AEW's fanbase is made up very heavily of 32-40 year olds who loved WCW and wished it was back, and woke up one day overwhelmingly happy to find that a bunch of anime dorks, the young bucks, and the son of a billionaire made it happen

81sidewinder
Sep 8, 2014

Buying stocks on the day of the crash

Dave on Twitter saying he's a teacher at Standford when he's a guest lecturer is pretty sad.

Incessant Excess
Aug 15, 2005

Cause of glitch:
Pretentiousness


81sidewinder posted:

Dave on Twitter saying he's a teacher at Standford when he's a guest lecturer is pretty sad.

I think the difference in wording he used is subtle but important, someone who taught rather than a teacher:

https://twitter.com/davemeltzerWON/...883511091785728

ICHIBAHN
Feb 21, 2007


Dave is completely right obviously. How else would you describe what he was doing?

JUNGLE BOY
Sep 22, 2019





I canít believe Dave believes heís the director of the sports entertainment department at Stanford

Super No Vacancy
Jul 26, 2012

yahallo


standford*

PaybackJack
May 21, 2003

...as much revenge as any man could possibly take.


That's a great example of how dumb, and bad, people think schools are when they think guest lecturers don't teach anything.

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forkboy84
Jun 13, 2012

I thought the redtext someone dumped on you was in bad taste and a bit much so here's a corgi instead.

njsykora posted:

Fun and rare instance of Bryan actively challenging Dave on WOR when Dave says Vince never opposed people wearing masks at the tapings which is hilarious levels of bullshit.

Dave on that segment was so bad. Saying it's not like Kevin Owens took a stand to Vince and then oh well, he did threaten to go home if people weren't wearing their masks.

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