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Terrible Opinions
Oct 17, 2013





Like trying to drop it before for being off topic before but the specific example that keeps bothering me is Enduring Renewal a card that is mechanically unique and available for stuff on MTGO and still have no other arts than the one by the nazi. That's the only way you can get it to this day from WotC on their only digital format for playing older sets. His version of Sylvan Library is still in the game and pops up with regularity in legacy and vintage events. Like yeah good that they got rid of the KKK card and I'm sure their contracts screw over artists enough that he isn't seeing money from it, but his other poo poo is still in the game on the only platform where they can just change it with a patch.

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Sodomy Hussein
Oct 9, 2005

Everything is subject to the needs of intelligence, for geniuses like me. If we actually solve problems, people won't need me and people like me, and this is a travesty without end. You have to squeeze the poor so they know their place, and you fucking commies forget that.


The action to get rid of the white power cards from within WotC was also extremely recent (2020).

https://www.polygon.com/2020/6/10/21287154/racist-magic-the-gathering-cards-banned-removed-from-database-wizards-apology

The cards in question are extremely cringey, and compounding it is that the artist was infamous for being an open, unguarded racist at conventions and so on.

There's also at least one far-right artist they've recently done away with:

https://www.hipstersofthecoast.com/2020/06/wizards-ends-their-relationship-with-terese-nielsen/

This is a lot of stuff that would generally go overlooked prior to 2016, let alone 1994.

Shageletic posted:

i dont know about any of this card poo poo but people trying to shut down compaints about it, from an outside perspective, seem sus as hell. If people have legitimate complaints about a company's lovely behavior in the 90s, who are you to try to tell people to let it go.

Anyway a perspective from a person who only knows about this poo poo from this thread.

My point is not to say that Magic is good and fine and everyone should shut up, it's that Magic has these problems and you can imagine D&D also has them, with the added issue that there's less attention on D&D because it's not as popular or profitable.

Bust Rodd
Oct 21, 2008

In Rodd we Bust





There’s an element to it where it’s like... removing a 28 year old painting from a video game because approximately .0001% of the audience associates this image


with a bad person will only serve to dredge up the entire thing, with a huge Streisand effect.

This isn’t like the racist depictions that actually appears on cards featuring hooded men with weapons, this is an infinitesimal small subset of people who would be playing Magic Online, and in the middle of the game would stop and go “oh my goodness! Harold McNeil! That was a terrible person, a bad guy! I can’t believe this game would support someone by displaying a painting they commissioned from him 27 years ago!”

It’s different from banning the cards that actually depict or invoke racism, this is just trying to turn someone’s name into a dirty word.

And the Enduring Renewal thing is like... I dunno I’ve been playing magic very seriously for a very long time, Enduring Renewal sees... like absolutely zero play unless you are a deeply enfranchised player playing one extremely specific kind of Magic, which is essentially only available on the video game version... the only people who even know Enduring Renewal exist are the most entrenched magic players in the world.

thrawn527
Mar 27, 2004

Thrawn/Pellaeon
Studying the art of terrorists
To keep you safe

I haven't played Magic: The Gathering in over 20 years, like 5th Edition or something. So I was reading this like, racist cards? C'mon, surely that can't be a thing. Back in my day, moms were getting mad about a pentagram on someone's forehead. This is probably something overblown like that...

Sodomy Hussein posted:

The action to get rid of the white power cards from within WotC was also extremely recent (2020).

https://www.polygon.com/2020/6/10/21287154/racist-magic-the-gathering-cards-banned-removed-from-database-wizards-apology

The cards in question are extremely cringey, and compounding it is that the artist was infamous for being an open, unguarded racist at conventions and so on.

...holy poo poo, those cards are loving nuts. Yup, those are some racist as hell cards. Looks like these are even from around the time I was playing, or a little before it. I was just a lovely kid that didn't make the connection. I may have had some of these. Yikes.

thrawn527 fucked around with this message at 20:00 on Apr 27, 2021

Sodomy Hussein
Oct 9, 2005

Everything is subject to the needs of intelligence, for geniuses like me. If we actually solve problems, people won't need me and people like me, and this is a travesty without end. You have to squeeze the poor so they know their place, and you fucking commies forget that.


thrawn527 posted:

I haven't played Magic: The Gathering in over 20 years, like 5th Edition or something. So I was reading this like, racist cards? C'mon, surely that can't be a thing. Back in my day, moms were getting mad about a pentagram on someone's forehead. This is probably something overblown like that...


...holy poo poo, those cards are loving nuts. Yup, those are some racist as hell cards. Looks like these are even from around the time I was playing, or a little before it. I was just a lovely kid that didn't make the connection. I may have had some of these. Yikes.

It feels like an Always Sunny character designed them

Lovely Joe Stalin
Jun 12, 2007

Our Lovely Wang


Shageletic posted:

i dont know about any of this card poo poo but people trying to shut down compaints about it, from an outside perspective, seem sus as hell. If people have legitimate complaints about a company's lovely behavior in the 90s, who are you to try to tell people to let it go.

Anyway a perspective from a person who only knows about this poo poo from this thread.

How's this for a perspective, take your snide smearing of other posters and sod off.

Saying that people in the thread are 'sus' just because you disagree with them is an incredibly loving crass and petty way of throwing around insinuations that demeans the actual topics of the thread and shouldn't have a place here.

Lovely Joe Stalin fucked around with this message at 22:07 on Apr 27, 2021

Vintersorg
Mar 3, 2004

PRESIDENT OF THE OFFICIAL BRENDAN FRASER FAN CLUB





Bust Rodd posted:

There’s an element to it where it’s like... removing a 28 year old painting from a video game because approximately .0001% of the audience associates this image


with a bad person will only serve to dredge up the entire thing, with a huge Streisand effect.

This isn’t like the racist depictions that actually appears on cards featuring hooded men with weapons, this is an infinitesimal small subset of people who would be playing Magic Online, and in the middle of the game would stop and go “oh my goodness! Harold McNeil! That was a terrible person, a bad guy! I can’t believe this game would support someone by displaying a painting they commissioned from him 27 years ago!”

It’s different from banning the cards that actually depict or invoke racism, this is just trying to turn someone’s name into a dirty word.

And the Enduring Renewal thing is like... I dunno I’ve been playing magic very seriously for a very long time, Enduring Renewal sees... like absolutely zero play unless you are a deeply enfranchised player playing one extremely specific kind of Magic, which is essentially only available on the video game version... the only people who even know Enduring Renewal exist are the most entrenched magic players in the world.

Nah, this is some bullshit. gently caress Harold McNeil. Erase his stupid legacy.

Macdeo Lurjtux
Jul 5, 2011

BRRREADSTOOORRM!


Through either complete coincidence or really loving sinister planning the card that featured clansmen cleansing an entire color from play was the 1,488th magic card.

AlternateAccount
Apr 25, 2005
FYGM

Wait, ok, I’ll ask. How is Stone Throwing Devils racist? The art appears to depict fictional devils. Throwing stones? Is it somehow due to the artist?

And Mass Calcify is still fine? Virtue’s Ruin is still fine?

inferis
Dec 30, 2003




Macdeo Lurjtux posted:

Through either complete coincidence or really loving sinister planning the card that featured clansmen cleansing an entire color from play was the 1,488th magic card.

are you really proposing that’s a coincidence?

Darth Walrus
Feb 13, 2012




AlternateAccount posted:

Wait, ok, I’ll ask. How is Stone Throwing Devils racist? The art appears to depict fictional devils. Throwing stones? Is it somehow due to the artist?

And Mass Calcify is still fine? Virtue’s Ruin is still fine?

In the context of his other designs (which used White and Black in the exact ways you'd expect a Nazi to use them), a Black card depicting rock-throwing savages is... kind of charged.

Zogo
Jul 29, 2003



thrawn527 posted:

...holy poo poo, those cards are loving nuts. Yup, those are some racist as hell cards. Looks like these are even from around the time I was playing, or a little before it. I was just a lovely kid that didn't make the connection. I may have had some of these. Yikes.

Check out the 1995 Crusade:


These cards may get your MTG collection confiscated by concerned parents:




AlternateAccount posted:

Wait, ok, I’ll ask. How is Stone Throwing Devils racist? The art appears to depict fictional devils. Throwing stones? Is it somehow due to the artist?

Googling makes references to Muslims or Hajj or references to Palestinians in particular.

thrawn527
Mar 27, 2004

Thrawn/Pellaeon
Studying the art of terrorists
To keep you safe

Zogo posted:

These cards may get your MTG collection confiscated by concerned parents:


Yup, that’s the very card I was referring to in my earlier post. I remember that one causing quite the controversy, back in the ‘90’s.

Midjack
Dec 24, 2007





thrawn527 posted:

Yup, that’s the very card I was referring to in my earlier post. I remember that one causing quite the controversy, back in the ‘90’s.

And now "tutoring" is the shorthand in any card game for "pull a chosen card out of your deck and into your hand." How times have changed.

Terrible Opinions
Oct 17, 2013





Darth Walrus posted:

In the context of his other designs (which used White and Black in the exact ways you'd expect a Nazi to use them), a Black card depicting rock-throwing savages is... kind of charged.
Different guy. Only one of the cards removed by WotC was by the nazi, the KKK card. So far as i know Ken Meyer the guy who made stone throwing devils is not a nazi, just a guy who drew art for a poorly named card.

Groovelord Neato
Dec 6, 2014




When I first saw Invoke Prejudice - not knowing about the artist - I assumed it was mocking racists.

Shageletic
Jul 25, 2007






Lovely Joe Stalin posted:

How's this for a perspective, take your snide smearing of other posters and sod off.

Saying that people in the thread are 'sus' just because you disagree with them is an incredibly loving crass and petty way of throwing around insinuations that demeans the actual topics of the thread and shouldn't have a place here.

Lol ok. I dont know whats going on with you but being super defensive about this insanely specific hobby is pretty weird and potentially problematic.

Sodomy Hussein posted:

The action to get rid of the white power cards from within WotC was also extremely recent (2020).

https://www.polygon.com/2020/6/10/21287154/racist-magic-the-gathering-cards-banned-removed-from-database-wizards-apology

The cards in question are extremely cringey, and compounding it is that the artist was infamous for being an open, unguarded racist at conventions and so on.

There's also at least one far-right artist they've recently done away with:

https://www.hipstersofthecoast.com/2020/06/wizards-ends-their-relationship-with-terese-nielsen/

This is a lot of stuff that would generally go overlooked prior to 2016, let alone 1994.


My point is not to say that Magic is good and fine and everyone should shut up, it's that Magic has these problems and you can imagine D&D also has them, with the added issue that there's less attention on D&D because it's not as popular or profitable.

At least this poster gave me some context. Thanks.

Shageletic
Jul 25, 2007






quote:

One card in particular, Invoke Prejudice, was singled out. It shows a hooded executioner with a black axe. “If opponent casts a Summon spell that does not match the color of one of the creatures under your control, that spell is countered,” says the card. It effectively kills off creatures that don’t look like the creatures already on the table.


Haha....wow!

LionArcher
Mar 29, 2010




Shageletic posted:

Haha....wow!

Most folks who played white decks always have a White supremacist vibe. Blue black red have major goth bi chaos nerd energy vibes. Green decks are for stoners.

Lovely Joe Stalin
Jun 12, 2007

Our Lovely Wang


Shageletic posted:

Lol ok. I dont know whats going on with you but being super defensive about this insanely specific hobby is pretty weird and potentially problematic.

Coming into a thread about racism, rapists, and other sorts of abusive monsters it's incredibly loving gross to blithely start calling people "sus" in that context just because you disagree with something innocuous they posted that didn't align with your opinion. Really loving distasteful. I'm not sure why that needs to be explained to you.

MonsieurChoc
Oct 12, 2013

Every species can smell its own extinction.




Actually Red is the color of the glorious revolution. Green-Red is eco-socialism.

Skwirl
May 13, 2007

The 'blood babe with the silicone chest, 200-dollar haircut, and a closet full of the latest fashions.




The only time I had real success in the tournament scene was with a blue-white control deck like 23 years ago, which is honestly pretty autocratic of a deck and explains why I've sucked at the game since reading Marx.

Shageletic
Jul 25, 2007






Lovely Joe Stalin posted:

Coming into a thread about racism, rapists, and other sorts of abusive monsters it's incredibly loving gross to blithely start calling people "sus" in that context just because you disagree with something innocuous they posted that didn't align with your opinion. Really loving distasteful. I'm not sure why that needs to be explained to you.

Hey buddy I've been here since the jump. Also a defensive posture that tamps down stories of corporate racism helps spread and maintain this poo poo.

To recap: this is the original post and reply

Crackbone posted:

WotC is still a messed up company, but that invoke predjudice poo poo happened 25 years ago. Their current art is super progressive in terms of representation. They cut ties with artists who’ve been overtly CHUD-like. So maybe let that complaint go?

Me posted:

i dont know about any of this card poo poo but people trying to shut down compaints about it, from an outside perspective, seem sus as hell. If people have legitimate complaints about a company's lovely behavior in the 90s, who are you to try to tell people to let it go.

Anyway a perspective from a person who only knows about this poo poo from this thread.

Tamping down allegations because they happened 20 years ago is not a good thing to do! I think that's pretty obvious, or should be.

I think you need to figure out why this is giving you such a huge reaction.

Bust Rodd
Oct 21, 2008

In Rodd we Bust





So just say what you mean. Don’t go “pretty Sus! A yikes from me pal!” just say the poster is covering up for racism or whatever instead of trying to throw accusations around in a thread that the mods at least try to keep a safe space.

Bust Rodd fucked around with this message at 13:45 on Apr 29, 2021

Shageletic
Jul 25, 2007






The difference between saying you're covering up for racism versus saying you're suspicious for covering up for racism seems like a fine line to me.

People think that racism is a yes/no thing when its really a fluctuating thing based on structural pressures and influences. I think turning away from racist things from the past (that always inevitably seems to continue in the present) helps encourage racism in the present.

I am not calling that poster a racist. But turning away from racist history does support racism and helps strengthen it.

And what especially got my goat was the urging for OTHER posters to not talk about it. That's just wrong.

POWELL CURES KIDS
Aug 26, 2016


Bust Rodd posted:

The way [Kevin Spacey] casually implicated/threatenes the ROYAL FAMILY in one of them was truly one of the most insane things I e ever seen in my life. It’s enough to make anyone a conspiracy nut

This is from a while ago, but--hasn't there been a bunch of poo poo in the past about people who've accused him of various things dying suddenly? Kevin Spacey, master assassin

Chris James 2
Aug 9, 2012



POWELL CURES KIDS posted:

This is from a while ago, but--hasn't there been a bunch of poo poo in the past about people who've accused him of various things dying suddenly? Kevin Spacey, master assassin

Three of his accusers died in 2019 alone. One of suicide on Xmas, one hit by a car, and one had cancer

Inspector Gesicht
Oct 26, 2012

500 Zeus a body.




https://twitter.com/guardian/status/1387842048364056585?s=20

Skwirl
May 13, 2007

The 'blood babe with the silicone chest, 200-dollar haircut, and a closet full of the latest fashions.





quote:

Through his lawyers, Clarke categorically denied every allegation that the Guardian put to him, bar one, accepting he once made inappropriate comments about one woman, for which he later apologised, but denying the rest of her complaints. In a 29-page letter, his lawyers said he categorically denies all of the other allegations, from all 20 women, in some cases questioning their credibility. They deny their client is a serial sexual predator.

So there's definitely videotape of the "inappropriate comments" and they aren't sure there's any proof beyond what these women said of the other accusations.

It took what like 40 women before people started believing the complaints against Cosby?

Rhyno
Mar 22, 2003

how few people do you
need before you can
change the world?


I read that entire article. Dude can get hosed.

Skwirl
May 13, 2007

The 'blood babe with the silicone chest, 200-dollar haircut, and a closet full of the latest fashions.




Rhyno posted:

I read that entire article. Dude can get hosed.

Yeah, I've never been happier to not recognize an apparently acclaimed actor's face.

Lovely Joe Stalin
Jun 12, 2007

Our Lovely Wang


He always seemed like an arrogant twat, but wow. That's a lot of reasonably well corroborated accusations.

thrawn527
Mar 27, 2004

Thrawn/Pellaeon
Studying the art of terrorists
To keep you safe


I only knew him from Doctor Who. Reading up on him, I had no idea how prolific he had become in British film and television.

Alan Smithee
Jan 3, 2005



quote:

In a shoot on 1 December 2015, a female extra was straddling a male actor on set. “The camera was right behind her,” Atherton recalls. “She was completely naked. And I know for a fact we could never have used that shot, because you could see up her bum hole.” The Guardian has spoken to other crew members on Brotherhood who have a similar recollection of the straddling scene. Atherton recalls another actor was asked to play with her naked breasts on camera. “I remember thinking at the time: surely they wouldn’t be able to use half the stuff they were filming.”


it's like the SNL intimacy coordinator sketch fr

Alan Smithee fucked around with this message at 08:50 on Apr 30, 2021

Darth Walrus
Feb 13, 2012




The legal standards for a paper to go this hard on sexual assault allegations without risk of being sued in the UK are extremely high. Clarke is hosed.

thrawn527
Mar 27, 2004

Thrawn/Pellaeon
Studying the art of terrorists
To keep you safe

https://twitter.com/darkhorizons/status/1388128283422715906

quote:

BAFTA says in a statement: “In light of the Guardian’s piece, which for BAFTA provided for the first time detailed accounts outlining serious allegations regarding Noel Clarke’s conduct, we have immediately suspended the award and Noel Clarke’s membership of BAFTA until further notice.”

Lovely Joe Stalin
Jun 12, 2007

Our Lovely Wang


BAFTA were in a somewhat invidious position it seems. A lot of people have been jumping on them, but as far as I can tell they had no one coming forward to say "I'm X and I am a victim" just anonymous mail and third parties offering no proof. As I understand it they directed those people to the appropriate authorities and offered to connect them to counselling. I'm not sure what else they could do given they aren't a statutory body. Start black listing high profile people (and a prominent member of a minority to boot) based on complaints no one puts their name to?
That said, the award was not for a particular production, it was an achievement category so they absolutely could have said "maybe we'll wait", but then that also has ramifications because he had already been announced as getting it and you'd provoke questions.
They might also have just been hoping the story would just gently caress off in the typical Hollywood way, but I can see that it's not as clear cut what they should have done as some critics have made out. Either way it's good to see that as soon as there was something concrete they didn't equivocate or hesitate.

Anyway, yeah the dude is hosed. ITV, one of the main channels just cancelled the fifth episode of a five episode story that was going out in prime time. Sky have stopped production of the fourth season of his drama with them while they retool it to eliminate him. And like Darth Walrus said, for the piece in the Guardian to be that strong and that carefully worded, he almost certainly has no reasonable recourse to a defamation suit.

I wouldn't be surprised if a criminal investigation is opened.

Lovely Joe Stalin fucked around with this message at 23:09 on Apr 30, 2021

thrawn527
Mar 27, 2004

Thrawn/Pellaeon
Studying the art of terrorists
To keep you safe

I will give BAFTA credit for saying, "gently caress off" once it became clear he was an rear end in a top hat. Not everyone does that.

Alan Smithee
Jan 3, 2005



https://twitter.com/Independent/status/1388238053593001989?s=20

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Alan Smithee
Jan 3, 2005



apparently John Barrowman is getting looked at closer because of this
https://twitter.com/Independent/status/1388121812035321856?s=20
https://twitter.com/_farmersmums/status/1388047419351445511?s=20

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