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Paragon8
Feb 19, 2007



Probably worth noting that his last girlfriend was 19 and he was 33 when they dated.

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Paragon8
Feb 19, 2007



GrandpaPants posted:

There was another name thrown around that I've forgotten. I think she was a producer or someone generally behind the camera?

I read Michelle Morrow thrown around.

I also found it a bit odd that Kumail Nanjiani and Emily Gordon have been pretty silent on the whole Hardwick thing. Well I mean I guess that's just the easiest thing to do for anyone in that sphere.

It's really incredible how many people are super into the most replaceable man in pop culture.

Paragon8
Feb 19, 2007



https://twitter.com/PageSix/status/1036245519415353344


Ghost Leviathan posted:

Ironically, progressive and even social justice oriented communities have a biiiig tendency to succumb to the Geek Social Fallacies, with many having already reached the inevitable endgame where the predators and abusers are immovable fixtures.

Thanks for that term, I hadn't read about Geek Social Fallacies before.

There's a lot of progressive voices I think - especially in entertainment - who haven't realised that they're carrying massive blindspots regarding race and gender especially and should just shut up and let better able people pick up the torch. That whole Michael Ian Black shitshow on twitter is one example. Navigating the fragility around not having a relevant opinion on an issue despite having a massive platform is going to be super important for a lot of celebrities.

Paragon8
Feb 19, 2007



DC Murderverse posted:

like a lot of instagram models will also "hang out" with rich guys on their yachts for a week in exchange for some significant money.

this certainly exists but not to the extent that instagram - an app with a billion users - could be labelled as a prostitution ring.

There's certainly escorts with IG but not every IG model is an escort.

They're far more likely just to be dating finance guys or making their own money with sponcon.

Paragon8
Feb 19, 2007



Macdeo Lurjtux posted:

Yeah, I know it happens, thereís been enough high profile arrests to support that. But if you listen to the sites that talk about it almost every IG Model and Hollywood Starlet takes part.

yeah a lot of that stuff you have to take with a grain of salt. i've seen people i know in real life on those sites enough to know that its 90% bullshit targeted at people who want to hate on IG girls.

Paragon8
Feb 19, 2007



King Vidiot posted:

I mean, Hardwick is a massive piece of poo poo and a creep but what he did to his ex isn't technically a crime, and it involved a relationship outside of work so it's not that surprising he didn't get barred from the industry over it. Hardwick operated in a similar gray area to Drake, where it's creepy and predatory but he didn't break any laws and even the court of public opinion could give him the benefit of the doubt.

yeah, unfortunately a lot of the response was to fixate on the sexual assault line of Chloe's letter which she later removed. I think she intended it more as an indicator of her emotional state rather than accusing him of the legal definition of sexual assault. The subsequent coverage of it fixated on proving if he did an actual rape or not and essentially ignored all the emotional abuse. It felt like a really honest and compelling description of being in an emotionally abuse relationship and its unfortunate that the focus on an ill advised word choice has discredited the rest of it.

Obviously not enough to accurately diagnose anything but from listening to the pod for a while it did seem pretty clear that Chris is was fixated on status and power dynamics. I can imagine those manifested pretty negatively in a relationship that was as imbalanced as the one with Chloe and its not surprising that his other girlfriends didn't notice the behaviour because as far as I can remember they were all his peer group or higher in status than he was.

I wonder what the podcast numbers are like now, I've poked my head in the subreddit - which has a pinned warning about harassing Chloe on social media - and it seems pretty much dead. That being said it felt petty dead before the accusation. There's just so many better celebrity interview podcasts now that I can't see it being as relevant as it was at the peak.

Paragon8
Feb 19, 2007



yeah i mean that's why the whole right wing bad faith reading of a childhood anecdote is so bizarre because I guess to them she's some beloved liberal leader that needs taking out when the reality is that she's put her foot in her mouth so many times she's pretty much alienated what is perceived to be her base.

Paragon8
Feb 19, 2007



LividLiquid posted:

See, I thought the same thing. Loved the first two seasons and thought it was a brilliant send-up of herself, but then I watched Tiny Furniture and realized, oh no, she's really like that, and thinks it's cool and good.

She's a trash human being who was born rich and the Fox News crowd hates her because she's a woman who doesn't defer to men in all things and them saying she raped her sister is just projection, like everything else they say. These things can be true at the same time.

There was a pretty good profile of her that came out last year that didn't necessarily make me like her but made me understand her a bit. A lot of the hate directed to her is apocryphal or through second hand sources that it was interesting to read a primary source. Yet she's still capable of enormously stupidity and not being able to recognise her own privilege while framing herself as extremely marginalised. Which makes her uniquely frustrating because like you say she's targeted in specific ways for lovely reasons but then she also tweetstorms when odell beckman doesn't make eye contact with her or lies to defend her friend from sexual harassment allegations.

Paragon8
Feb 19, 2007



and literally dunham has self owned herself dozens of times in the past few years in spectacular fashion that focusing on her autobiography as some kind of gotcha is misplaced when there are far more relevant things to "cancel" her for.

Paragon8
Feb 19, 2007



Bust Rodd posted:

Itís also a good example of how likability and credibility factor into it.

We have photographs of Asia Argento in bed with a child she may have been grooming for years and people are still going to bat for her more ferociously than Dunham. Dunham just sucks and is very unlikeable and itís easier to drag her for a weird thing than it is to drag someone like MJ or Bowie for an obvious, terrible crime.

it also speaks to how much slack society gives to rich/famous people because there is the idea that certain people would never engage in sexual assault because they don't *have* to which is wildly gross.

Paragon8
Feb 19, 2007



i mean there was literally a chart that went viral on twitter a few weeks ago showing that Di Caprio hasn't had a girlfriend over 25 since he was 24. He's def has a type.

Paragon8
Feb 19, 2007



Leo is absolutely a world class actor and philanthropist and that's great - but I think its fair to be grossed out by him still living the pussy patrol lifestyle at 44. Obviously its all fine if everyone is a consenting adult and I didn't imply he was a predator. Just that it undercuts what The Wolf of Wall Street critiqued and contributes to the glamorisation of it because DiCaprio's life parallels Belfort's superficially.

Paragon8
Feb 19, 2007



Bust Rodd posted:

Well it’s kinda interesting because more than half the threads content is less cut-and-dry sexual assault and based on power dynamic.

Can you reasonably expect a balance of power in a relationship with Leo, for example? What women wouldn’t be completely dwarfed by his money, fame and influence?

Many in this thread might argue it’s literally impossible for someone that famous to have a normal relationship, because even if Leo loved and cared for you, you’re only one big fight away from getting replaced by literally millions of women who would die to take your place.

Does Leo even have a female contemporary? I know she’s nearly 30-40 years his senior but he’d need Meryl Streep or Angelina Jolie or Britney Spears, someone with so much of their own power and influence that it’s normalized, or at least balanced.

I mean that’s all we really talk about when it comes down to Louis CK, right, at least with the women who consented initially, we say they felt like they had to because of power imbalance, because he’s a gatekeeper. What happens if you become that famous? I’d argue at that point there’s no chance of a real relationship and you might as well just gently caress hotties until you die.

The power dynamic conversation is definitely important to have I think especially how it relates to cases exploiting fame to get laid. There's the argument that people sleeping with famous men are getting "something" in return but I think that can get pretty hazy in terms of power dynamics. I think it can get abused pretty quickly. More in terms of people directly sleeping with fans - which can be pretty tricky to parse because there's a lot of competing dynamics there. The Aziz Ansari thing kind of falls into that spectrum. I am sure it is unintentional for a lot of celebrities but I can easily imagine some celebrities exploiting that.

I feel like there are probably more famous people that do manage to get into healthy relationships than are forced to recycle blonde models in their early 20s. Leo is an exception rather than the norm in that case. We just have a cultural expectation that's what movie stars do - probably in no large part due to Leo himself.

Paragon8
Feb 19, 2007



kaworu posted:

I know this is not exactly "news", but I have gotten into the most frightening, and yet eye-opening argument on youtube. Normally I never, ever engage in such shenanigans (and if I do I'm too embarrassed to admit it) but this was... shocking.

I bet at least some of you have seen (or heard about) the new Amazon series The Boys, which is based on an "edgy" comic book with copious violence, sexual or otherwise, but the series is actually fairly decent. However, there is an extremely creepy scene in the Episode 1 where the "good and innocent" female superhero Starlight, who has just become an elite member of the super-group of superheroes known as "The Seven", encounters Aquaman rip-off "The Deep" alone in the meeting room of of the tower. He coerces her into giving him oral sex after she shyly reveals that she had a crush on him when she was younger - superheroes are celebrities in this universe. She is grossed out, and he says "It's just a question of how badly you want to be a part of The Seven, I guess..." which seriously pisses her off, causing her to inadvertently use her powers to make some monitors and light bulbs explode. The Deep then implies he will say she tried to assault him and effectively ruin her life if she doesn't go through with it. We then cut to her vomiting in the bathroom, mercifully.

So, that is the scene, right? Now, to me, that is rape, right? You would ALL agree that making such threats amounts to abusing power and coercion and is, unequivocally, rape, yes? That is how I read the scene, anyway. But apparently this is not how a lot of male viewers read the scene, judging by the shitstorm I caused simply by making the previous statement on a freaking youtube comment section.

You see, apparently I am confused, and really stupid, and in that scene Starlight is actually being a total whore - she just wants to be on The Seven so bad, she doesn't care whose cock she has to suck, you see. All the fans I was discussing the scene with, they seemed to agree that they would OBVIOUSLY have just walked away in Starlight's position, it wasn't like he was physically forcing her. And apparently, what The Deep was doing was only "sexual harassment" and "blackmail" - it definitely wasn't rape!

I have to say, that I was beyond flabbergasted that so many people seemed to believe this. Sure, it was youtube comments, but loving still! I couldn't... not say something, it was such a deeply hosed up perspective, and I thought it was just a few crazy misogynists but.... drat. There were a couple people who agreed with me but it seemed too hosed up for them to bother making more than a sadly ironic comment. The thing of it was that I could not understand why all these guys cared about this... loving semantic distinction! It was like they all agreed that it was a creepy thing to do and "probably sexual harassment and maybe blackmail" but they were getting REALLY offended and worked up over me insisting again and again that NO, it was actually the very definition of RAPE since he forced a woman to unwillingly suck his dick, but this... was apparently not obvious or clear to them, or they would not admit it?

Then I came to a really... horrible, really chilling realization. All these guys were refusing to call it rape because they had done similar things to women (or men) in terms of using power or threats to receive sexual favors from people who were almost certainly unwilling - or maybe they just WANT to do those things. And they DO NOT think of themselves as rapists, not by any means - I cannot think of ANY other reason why someone would care so much about the definition of rape and how it applies in that context. It's the only reason why I'm at all motivated to angrily argue the OTHER SIDE, which is a point they made several times by referring to events they assume happened in my past that were "not-rape" in their opinions...


I'm sorry to bring this all up here as it was a silly internet argument, but... well, to be honest that really freaks me out. Like I said, why else would that point of view exist? It's deeply unsettling to me.

there's a worrying amount of people who have an extremely limited idea of what rape is.

i read someone in relation to this show say that Homelander, the superman analogue, couldn't commit rape because why would any woman deny him? Despite drawing these terrible takes the show is a pretty interesting watch and much better than the comics.

Paragon8
Feb 19, 2007



King Vidiot posted:

Me, I'm just sad that Terry Richardson didn't get swept up in #METOO because I hate that creep and he really should've been raked over the coals harder for the poo poo he pulled and probably still pulls.

fwiw he has been pretty solidly blacklisted although it did take a big metoo push to actually get brands and magazines on the record and i think he has actually faced a criminal complaint. his most recent professional work is 2017.

the spotlight team at the boston globe did a pretty solid story naming a bunch of other photographers too who unfortunately seem to have skated by for the most part. a big fashion meme/call out account on instagram called diet_prada took down a guy who did a lot of content for kim kardashian and a nyc fashion guy who had worked with a bunch of VS angels.

Paragon8
Feb 19, 2007



I mean its a little funny because he starred in a movie 20 years ago that roasts him for being engaged to a 26 year old that makes jokes about how she's young enough to be his daughter.

It does kind of speak to the culture of hollywood that values young women and discards them while men go on to have long careers. It's getting a little better but 20-30 year age gaps are fairly common for love interests and just create a vacuum of roles for not only middle aged women but younger men.

Paragon8
Feb 19, 2007



Parakeet vs. Phone posted:

It's thankfully still just a fringe bit of awfulness, but the slow turn to try and line up Sandusky's abuse as a bunch of lies and recovered memories is stunning given how clear the case was. One of the times where reality just doesn't seem to matter to some people.

the thing that really cracked the Larry Nassar case was detectives finding hard drives filled with child porn.

the sad thing with a lot of these cases is they rely on witness testimony and culturally until maybe very recently we're in a place where the first instinct is to dismiss victims especially when its a famous man. Even today if you say anything negative about Michael Jackson you'll get dogpiled by ardent fans with big copypastas about how he's the real victim. Same with Woody Allen.

Not sure if anyone has watched the netflix show Unbelievable which is based on a true story but its a really great depiction of the decision making process of a victim as well as a lot of process work in what it takes for the police to actually pursue a rapist.

Paragon8
Feb 19, 2007



Judakel posted:

She's a bored rich woman who used to work at the new york post. This is bored rich woman poo poo.

i don't think this is true? the new york post stuff at least. maybe you're thinking of the toast? that i believe was the website she ran.

Paragon8 fucked around with this message at 14:36 on Dec 25, 2019

Paragon8
Feb 19, 2007



Juliette Lewis was 17 when she dated a then 27 year old Brad Pitt. Paul Walker also was notorious for dating teens. I think Henry Cavill has had some borderline relationships.

I don't think its some sinister hollywood conspiracy but just how power and gender dynamics unfortunately play out.

Teenagers don't see themselves as children and usually lack the experience to recognise that a 25+ person interested in them isn't a signal they're uncommonly mature, just that they're a creep. Add in fame and the situation is just heightened further.

Paragon8
Feb 19, 2007



graventy posted:

I thought Bombshell was very good but half of the movie is harassment, which is hard to watch. Not a movie you can really recommend to people.

yeah, I was actually pleasantly surprised by Bombshell being as good as it was despite being primed to hate it by film twitter hot takes.

It really captures the institutional rot that breeds a culture like fox news and it wouldn't be a stretch to imagine it happening anywhere else.

The BAFTAs nominating Margot Robbie twice is laughable but I'd rate her higher in Bombshell than Once Upon a Time in Hollywood.

Paragon8
Feb 19, 2007



Bust Rodd posted:

drat that sucks. I like Ellisí comics a lot, but I outgrew Gaiman after college. Honesty surprised to hear Gaiman acted that way, heís basically a model ally these days for women and trans folk and LGBT folks and seems very happily married so Iíll hope thatís all behind him.


ummm well about that marriage.

Paragon8
Feb 19, 2007



Darth Walrus posted:

lol, Mark Lawrence. I know the idea that rapists tell on themselves is mostly dumb pop psychology, but seeing this about the guy who debuted with the Broken Empire series is intensely unsurprising.

fwiw Lawrence is only accused of online harassment.

Paragon8
Feb 19, 2007



Thandie Newton did an incredibly good and deep interview with Vulture thats well worth checking out.

Paragon8
Feb 19, 2007



WeedlordGoku69 posted:

...eh? :crossarms:

you realize women are, generally speaking, hella into ripped dudes too, right

e: like you realize Jason Momoa is pretty much considered the hottest dude in hollywood right now, right? looking like that Rob Liefeld drawing of Captain America, but with a beard and long hair, is more or less The In Look for dudes right now

i don't think its thats simple. there's also a pretty compelling argument that its Timothťe Chalamet if we're talking about who women consider hot.

DeimosRising posted:

The concept of gaze and male gaze is a lot more complicated than “horny images”

yeah, actually going back to Mulvey's writing on this makes a lot of the conversation around the male gaze frustrating with how superficially its applied as criticism.

Paragon8
Feb 19, 2007



John Wick of Dogs posted:

Well Jesus fuckin Christ, guess I was wrong, glad I didn't fuckin watch that Twitter clip!

Why the gently caress are critics not mentioning that poo poo?

bc the screen grab is from the user generated IMDB parents guide which is being gamed.

https://www.commonsensemedia.org/movie-reviews/cuties

if you want a more accurate overview.

Paragon8
Feb 19, 2007



I've actually seen the movie and the dance scene is provocative and decontexualised isn't great but the thing about movies is they provide context. Its basically framed as a horror show.

It's certainly worth a debate if this kind of thing is effective in a movie but we're way beyond being able to have that debate in good faith because of how many weirdos have latched onto this to produce culture war content.

It feels beyond asinine to frame the director and the production of this movie as some intentional choice to create pedophilia. It is incredibly critical of the sexualisation of girls as long as you're not consuming it in supercuts of the "worst" moments produced by bad faith outrage merchants. If anything those cuts are basically going to be far more disseminated by creeps than having to scrub the movie as whole for those parts.

You could probably make a cut of similar if not worse from Disney channel shows but they're never critical of what they're depicting.

https://www.indiewire.com/2020/01/cuties-review-netflix-sundance-maimouna-doucure-1202202924/ this is a fairly critical review written before all the outrage controversy thats prob worth a read if you want to get more into it.

Like it's an edgy French arthouse movie. Its not for everyone and I think Netflix hosed up with how they presented and announced it. I think there's a lot more long term cultural sexualisation of teens on tiktok with millions of them lipsyncing and dancing to incredibly graphic music.

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Paragon8
Feb 19, 2007



Professorjuggalo posted:

I feel like it falls into the same problem of 12 years a slave where by showing everything in graphic detail it almost turns into exploitation. half the people seriously looking for a nuanced take on these subjects will be turned off from using the same imagery as the stuff itís trying to satire if it makes sense?

Depiction isn't endorsement I think is the argument a lot of people make and I do think its a pretty valid one in most instances. Unfortunately its one that people just run head first into like a brick wall which kind of cuts off any further discussion in most places.

Slavery movies are a good example of something where I see a good argument that there isn't much of a benefit of seeing Black people being whipped or tortured yet again. The imagery can be very exploitative and at this point what is the "educational benefit" when we routinely see videos of Black people actually dying on social media. Do we need another movie about slavery being Bad in the 1800s?

Sexual violence I think is another example that could be used. Like the rape scene in Irreversible is just put on like tube sites without context. At that point it can't be for anything other than titillation. Depraved poo poo but is that the movie's fault? I think its arguable but to me it says more about the audience consuming those clipped out scenes than Noe.

Coralie Fargeat's Revenge featured a rape but kept it off camera and you only saw the reactions of a character in another room. I thought that was a pretty good way of getting actually depicting it on camera. Maybe it would have been better for Mignonnes to have tried something similar and focussed on the audience reactions to the final dance scene. But then also the sex scenes in The Tale I found incredibly confrontational and powerful (although they explicitly said they used a body double at the start of the film) and I don't think the movie would have had as much as a punch if it happened off camera.

Its a tough line to draw and I think there's certainly a conversation to be had about it. I just don't think it should be dictated by conspiracy theorists who think Tom Hanks is huffing a chemical made out of children's fear or 14 year old Steven Universe fans who don't have the developed brains to understand the alphabet soup of social justice terms they've consumed on tumblr.

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