Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us money per month for bills, and since we don't believe in showing ads to our users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
 
  • Post
  • Reply
Tuxedo Catfish
Mar 17, 2007

You've got guts! Come to my village, I'll buy you lunch.


Harime Nui posted:

I feel like a fitting punishment for disgraced celebrities might be having their likenesses optioned for an eternal Video Game Purgatory where they play the sleaziest worst villains forever

That's not a punishment, villains are the best roles.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Tuxedo Catfish
Mar 17, 2007

You've got guts! Come to my village, I'll buy you lunch.


King Vidiot posted:

Well, they're white and male specifically because rich people need a uniform face to present to racist underclass white people to say "See? You and me, we're not so different and if you keep the women and minorities down then someday you too will be as rich and powerful as me!". Whiteness (which is entirely made up) and maleness (also made up) are the root cause of the problem, they're what's keeping the rich capitalists in power. Like, you can't ignore class sure, but you also can't ignore race and gender. The underclass are divided along totally made-up lines that are meaningless.

I think calling them the root cause of the problem is slightly off. There's no doubt that whiteness and maleness have become incredibly toxic but they're that way because white people and men have been in dominant positions for so long, and because our society incentivizes sociopathic and predatory behavior as a road to the top, not the other way around.

All unequal positions of social power contribute to the potential for abuse, as does a culture of zero sum competition where any gain has to come at someone else's expense. These traits are probably not innately male (and certainly not to the extent to which we actually practice them) and they absolutely aren't innately white; they are to a great extent white people's and men's responsibility to combat because we are presently the main carriers and beneficiaries of those circumstances, but that's not quite the same thing.

(The main difference being that we can't stop there, to be clear.)

Tuxedo Catfish
Mar 17, 2007

You've got guts! Come to my village, I'll buy you lunch.


enki42 posted:

I really don't get the obsession with requiring that all friends and coworkers publicly denounce sex pests. Like yes, of course if you knew something I think you have a responsibility to say something, but beyond that I don't know how we benefit from criticizing people for saying things like it's complicated. (note this is totally different from actually supporting said pests - I think Janeane Garofalo deserves some criticism.)

It's not about requiring public denouncement for its own sake, and in fact not even really about the individual morality of friends and coworkers, even -- it's that tacit acceptance and shying away from controversy is a big part of what allows them to keep doing what they do. The point is to eventually build a society where being a sexual abuser means you're shunned and ostracized, instead of one where the Weinsteins of the world decide who gets to make movies or find jobs.

Tuxedo Catfish
Mar 17, 2007

You've got guts! Come to my village, I'll buy you lunch.


CelticPredator posted:

If youíre good friends with a bad person its a hard thing to grapple with. I have a hard time being okay with my friends being mildy racist, transphobic and just more in the right. If my best friend was a sex pest I would be at a loss.

Stop asking these people things. Itís not our business to understand their POV.

My father was a Holocaust denier and a neo-nazi. I am not, largely because my peer group constantly gave me poo poo for it and demanded better of me until I had no choice but to become a better person. I am extremely lucky in that I was de-radicalized in a time before you could easily find support for any horrible opinion on the internet, and where the opinion of your real life community arguably had more force than it does now.

So no, I'm not going to stop asking people to make it hard to be evil. Not only would it be bad for society, it would be immensely hypocritical for me of all people to act otherwise. It wouldn't even be good for bad people, because without an impetus to change there's not much chance at genuine rehabilitation!

Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 22:33 on Jan 24, 2019

Tuxedo Catfish
Mar 17, 2007

You've got guts! Come to my village, I'll buy you lunch.


CelticPredator posted:

Iím saying stop asking their friends what they think about their bad friends. Itís complicated and not worth the time.

I don't think that's true at all. It's definitely complicated, but the conversation about the weird difficult space where you have social ties to a bad person and care about their well-being but don't want to condone their actions is a valuable one to have, there are good and bad ways to go about doing that, and little to gain from sweeping it under the rug. If someone doesn't want to talk about it with a microphone in their face, fine, but there's no reason for the rest of us to completely avoid the conversation.

Tuxedo Catfish
Mar 17, 2007

You've got guts! Come to my village, I'll buy you lunch.


I chatted about this topic with a friend and she pointed out that putting someone close to an abuser on the spot like that can both be harmful to the person in question (even if they genuinely didn't know and/or give a unobjectionable response when asked) and, moreover, that trying to directly break down the social environment that an abuser operates in can lead to retaliation against the victim.

I don't think it changes my position, but I'm sorry if I was too flippant or inconsiderate about what's at stake.

Tuxedo Catfish
Mar 17, 2007

You've got guts! Come to my village, I'll buy you lunch.


porfiria posted:

What is up with Americans confusing legal concepts for things that are...not that?

Law is basically applied ethics, and the foundational document for all of American law is also very much a statement of our national ethos, for better or worse.

Tuxedo Catfish
Mar 17, 2007

You've got guts! Come to my village, I'll buy you lunch.


Samuel Clemens posted:

Accusations like these are probably a lot more damaging to actors than behind-the-scenes people. You can't watch a Kevin Spacey film without being reminded of his crimes, but how many people even know Bohemian Rhapsody was directed by Singer?

That's plausible, but less optimistic than speculating that the man just has nuclear-grade dirt on everyone in Hollywood (and hoping he takes them with him whenever he finally goes down).

Tuxedo Catfish
Mar 17, 2007

You've got guts! Come to my village, I'll buy you lunch.


It's a good thing that people suffer public consequences for being shitheads. This is how society changes and the Overton window shifts for the better.

Tuxedo Catfish
Mar 17, 2007

You've got guts! Come to my village, I'll buy you lunch.


like literally the only downside to people accidentally revealing who they are on social media is that the truth is kind of depressing sometimes

Tuxedo Catfish
Mar 17, 2007

You've got guts! Come to my village, I'll buy you lunch.


Detective No. 27 posted:

I heard it was a combination of Temple of Doom and Gremlins.

Man, I must have watched Temple of Doom a hundred times as a kid. Thinking about it, I never did feel terrified or anything about the movie's graphic scenes. What a great trilogy.

see I always heard it was Poltergeist, which leads me to suspect this is all apocryphal

Tuxedo Catfish
Mar 17, 2007

You've got guts! Come to my village, I'll buy you lunch.


Coffee And Pie posted:

John CHEESE, not John Cleese

This threw me for a while too.

Tuxedo Catfish
Mar 17, 2007

You've got guts! Come to my village, I'll buy you lunch.


Criminal Minded posted:

I've never been to a chiropractor but it's my understanding that it's basically a coin flip as to whether you receive care from a licensed professional who understands their limits or a snake-oil salesman who wants to try and cure cancer by twisting your bones.

Chiropractors are universally frauds. They aren't medical practitioners, there is zero science behind what they do, the entire "profession" are the barely-disguised modern inheritors of a guy who thought that God put magic juice in your nervous system that could be adjusted by manipulating your spine.

At best you get someone who will harmlessly crack your spine for you and take money for it. At worse you get someone who will gently caress up your body with physically dangerous bullshit. The only reason they aren't regarded with the same entirely-justified contempt people have for homeopaths or essential oils is because they have a stronger lobby in the US.

Back in the 90s there was a court case where chiropractic associations brought an anti-trust(!) suit against the American Medical Association for trying to boycott them out of existence. The judge was a moron and basically ruled that because the AMA hadn't tried gently convincing people that chiropractic isn't medicine first, their outright boycott / ban on doctors referring patients to chiropractors was an unfair business practice. The case was appealed up to the Supreme Court but they repeatedly refused to grant cert.

Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 17:18 on Jun 21, 2019

Tuxedo Catfish
Mar 17, 2007

You've got guts! Come to my village, I'll buy you lunch.


Bust Rodd posted:

Hell, have any of you ever tried to talk to your mom & dad about their relationship? Iím certain some of what they both thought was normal could be viewed as weird or problematic today, even if they really want to be together.

My late father was 18 years older than my mother, and they started dating when she was a sophomore in college.

I'd known this for most of my life, even though as I aged myself I realized just how weird and creepy that was.

More recently she actually told me the story of how they met, and it involved him borderline sexually assaulting her at a party, her pushing him off, and then deciding the next day to get with him after all.

Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 16:03 on Aug 5, 2019

Tuxedo Catfish
Mar 17, 2007

You've got guts! Come to my village, I'll buy you lunch.


Rehabilitation should be on the table for everyone who truly demonstrates remorse and an ability to change, which Louis CK has not, at all, and likely never will because he has an environment that pats him on the back and commiserates about how unfair it all is instead of one that encourages that kind of introspection.

These things don't happen in a vacuum, and the answer to "how much punishment enough" is subtly off in the first place; it's not about extracting an eye for an eye, and no count of years or lost dollars is ever going to be the "correct" answer because it's not about that. It's about protecting society from bad actors.

Tuxedo Catfish
Mar 17, 2007

You've got guts! Come to my village, I'll buy you lunch.


LIVE AMMO COSPLAY posted:

They know which side of the class war they're on and they stick together.

I get this in general, but Woody Allen's cultural invincibility is really distinctly noticeable even by those standards.

Tuxedo Catfish
Mar 17, 2007

You've got guts! Come to my village, I'll buy you lunch.


LIVE AMMO COSPLAY posted:

gently caress settlements.

Yeah. While our justice system is a travesty in many ways, not least of which is its inadequate support of victims, a purely victim-centric justice system wouldn't be ideal either, for precisely this reason: people like Weinstein are a danger to society, not just to the people they've already hurt, and it shouldn't be possible for them to escape the consequences and potentially go on hurting people just by paying one person off. (Even if that person is completely within their rights to take what they can get and then try and put the whole thing behind them!)

e: which is neither to downplay the real reason that settlements exist (to get rich people out of trouble) or to suggest that punitive justice is the basis for my argument -- all of this would still 100% apply in a rehabilitative & defensive system

Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 07:28 on Dec 12, 2019

Tuxedo Catfish
Mar 17, 2007

You've got guts! Come to my village, I'll buy you lunch.


Sucrose posted:

The $25 million payout is just for the civil side of things. He still faces criminal charges.

That'll learn me not to research the full context. Thanks for the catch.

Tuxedo Catfish
Mar 17, 2007

You've got guts! Come to my village, I'll buy you lunch.


Terry Gilliam's movies all drip with self-loathing just barely exceeded by misanthropy, and every time he opens his mouth in public it's not hard to see why.

Tuxedo Catfish
Mar 17, 2007

You've got guts! Come to my village, I'll buy you lunch.


at first I was like "oh well at least Camus isn't on that list"

then i double-checked the date and realized it might just be because he'd been dead for 17 years

Tuxedo Catfish
Mar 17, 2007

You've got guts! Come to my village, I'll buy you lunch.


MonsieurChoc posted:

Camus was a Pied-Noir though. He wanted Algeria to stay french.

Figures. Reading The Myth of Sisyphus helped me cope with some really bad depressive episodes and was a huge influence on my thinking, but there's another essay in that very collection that basically amounts to a defense of imperialism done up in masturbatory obscurantist rhetoric.

Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 05:44 on Jan 9, 2020

Tuxedo Catfish
Mar 17, 2007

You've got guts! Come to my village, I'll buy you lunch.


Football is a bloodsport, we shouldn't even be paying innocent people to play it.

Tuxedo Catfish
Mar 17, 2007

You've got guts! Come to my village, I'll buy you lunch.


I mean apart from there being no hard distinction between a sport and a performance art to speak of, there's a huge communal and ritual function that tends to be overlooked by people with no friends (or somewhat more charitably, who hated their family or community growing up).

I just wouldn't want my local theater troupe to be giving themselves permanent brain damage for my entertainment, either. In much the same way I don't want rape and sexual harassment to just be the loving price of doing business for a medium I love.

(Especially not if film/theater/whatever were constantly presented as a means to pay for an education and escape poverty!)

Tuxedo Catfish
Mar 17, 2007

You've got guts! Come to my village, I'll buy you lunch.


I think this fits within this thread's scope, at least re: the social implications:

https://www.theverge.com/2020/2/27/21156445/onlyfans-leak-not-hacked-photos-videos

The reason I bring it up here is that this kind of sex work is basically within the realm of entertainment media, and it illustrates the way that both formal and informal protections that are extended to wealthy, famous women don't always work for everyone else, and can even be counter-productive.

A lot of the discourse surrounding this leak (which, at least at the moment, appears to be the result of people collecting and sharing images/video, not an outright security breach) revolves around what legal or technological means the people affected have to protect themselves, including copyright law, making it harder to download or share content in a web browser, and so on.

Unfortunately, I think there's... a lot of naivete, among people (rightly) upset about how this went down, about how well either intellectual property law or technological safeguards would be against preventing leaks like this, while at the same time there are a shitload of people using disdain for copyright law in bad faith and showing their whole rear end re: misogyny and feeling entitled to violate people's privacy.

I think we need much more comprehensive formal protections for personal privacy that don't rely on the mechanisms of intellectual property, both because intellectual property rights are wildly overextended in this country as it is, and also because redressing the harm of sex workers being named/publicized shouldn't have to rely on the logic of "incentivizing creativity" in the first place.

But that's also kind of putting the cart before the horse, because the other problem is that the legal system just isn't financially practical for most people in this situation to begin with.

Tuxedo Catfish
Mar 17, 2007

You've got guts! Come to my village, I'll buy you lunch.


people who are both incredibly attractive, wealthy, and famous and know that they are might be less pliable and less impressed by your own possession of those characteristics, which gives predatory shitheads who are also celebrities plenty of incentive to cheat

Tuxedo Catfish
Mar 17, 2007

You've got guts! Come to my village, I'll buy you lunch.


nic cage is probably the only celebrity left who would genuinely emotionally wound me if he turned out to be a monster

Tuxedo Catfish
Mar 17, 2007

You've got guts! Come to my village, I'll buy you lunch.


thrawn527 posted:

I don't know what FNM is, but this sounds...horrifying.

Friday Night Magic. Officially sanctioned local tournaments for MTG, basically.

Tuxedo Catfish
Mar 17, 2007

You've got guts! Come to my village, I'll buy you lunch.


I played competitive magic as a teenager and while I have some nostalgia for it, it's mostly horror stories; lots of adults coming into the store to try to scalp kids in the card trading economy, sketchy bracket seeding / favoritism, and so on. And that's before you even get to the sexism.

Wizards of the Coast is also an astonishingly lovely company from top to bottom and you shouldn't support them if you can help it.

Tuxedo Catfish
Mar 17, 2007

You've got guts! Come to my village, I'll buy you lunch.


Joss Whedon might be wealthy and influential but he's still just a creative, and that seems like an increasingly redundant and fungible position given the way the kind of movies he used to make, are made.

Tuxedo Catfish
Mar 17, 2007

You've got guts! Come to my village, I'll buy you lunch.


trailer park residents don't deserve to get lumped in with rapists

Tuxedo Catfish
Mar 17, 2007

You've got guts! Come to my village, I'll buy you lunch.


being human garbage doesn't automatically mean you make bad movies, Woody Allen is just a double threat

Tuxedo Catfish
Mar 17, 2007

You've got guts! Come to my village, I'll buy you lunch.


some of this is people talking past each other but also honestly some of it is just that people don't want to hear about how invulnerable you feel, in the sexual assault thread

Tuxedo Catfish
Mar 17, 2007

You've got guts! Come to my village, I'll buy you lunch.


Ghost Leviathan posted:

I have no idea how these people loving function when being autistic it seems so difficult just to meet the bare minimum of social acceptance when trying incredibly hard.

what does autism have to do with any of this? did you get two threads mixed up or something?

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Tuxedo Catfish
Mar 17, 2007

You've got guts! Come to my village, I'll buy you lunch.


Bust Rodd posted:

I took it to mean ďas a person with autism, I find it difficult to just manage normal social situations, I canít imagine how people handle or navigate these much weirder situationsĒ

oh, okay, that makes more sense, i was reading "when being autistic" as modifying "these people" instead of being a new clause

a bunch of shitheads in game development or competitive gaming have tried to play off sexual harassment (or racism, or various other things) as just being awkward because of their autism in recent memory, and it's the vilest thing -- both for how nonsensical it is as an excuse and for contributing to the idea that autistic people are more likely to be perpetrators when in reality the exact opposite is true

  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • Post
  • Reply