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Basebf555
Feb 29, 2008

The greatest sensual pleasure there is is to know the desires of another!



Fun Shoe

Hollismason posted:

Wait how is Keanu Reeves involved in all of this

Cause that is really really surprising

He's not? Where are you getting that from?

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Basebf555
Feb 29, 2008

The greatest sensual pleasure there is is to know the desires of another!



Fun Shoe

Timby posted:

So Page says she was assaulted by a director when she was sixteen, which would place it around 2003-ish.

Uh, that basically says David Slade, right?

If it's a director where she actually ended up doing the movie, yea by process of elimination it'd have to be him. And yes, that movie is Hard Candy so.....

But she probably met with a bunch of directors to talk about possible projects that didn't end up working out so probably can't just assume it's him. And is David Slade really a guy that she would hesitate to name? When she said she still didn't feel totally comfortable naming the person I figured it was because they were still a powerful figure in the industry, which hardly describes David Slade.

Basebf555
Feb 29, 2008

The greatest sensual pleasure there is is to know the desires of another!



Fun Shoe

Fart City posted:

That was my thought. And if that's the case, it turns Hard Candy, already a difficult movie to consider, into the biggest, brightest red flag imaginable.

I wonder if Page knew that just saying her age would make it easy to narrow it down, when you consider that we're talking about Hard Candy AND the two films that she did before and after were both directed by women. Pretty clever if so.

Basebf555
Feb 29, 2008

The greatest sensual pleasure there is is to know the desires of another!



Fun Shoe

I mean, he does say that he "regrets" what he did several times, isn't that pretty much the same thing as saying you're sorry?

Basebf555
Feb 29, 2008

The greatest sensual pleasure there is is to know the desires of another!



Fun Shoe

DC Murderverse posted:

I've always wondered, when big-name actors fly across the Atlantic on a 10+ hour plane ride to Europe to film a movie with Roman Polanski, if they ever give a thought to the reason they have to fly all that way. Like, it has to come up in their brain, right? "This guy raped a 14 year old and ran away from the consequences" has to show up somewhere, right? do they justify it because he's such a great artist, or do they try to play it off as not that bad, or that he's done his time? or do they just push it as far out of their mind as possible because it can help their career? Obviously "i was young and regret it now" makes sense, especially for someone whose career is still up in the air.

We've seen all the various justifications from various people. Some go with "it was a long time ago and he should be forgiven", others it's "I'm an artist first and foremost and he's a great iconic director so I want to work with him", and then yea there's the ones who kinda openly admit they feel lovely about it but just did it for the career boost.

Basebf555
Feb 29, 2008

The greatest sensual pleasure there is is to know the desires of another!



Fun Shoe

DC Murderverse posted:

i haven't ever gone looking but i'd be curious to hear from people like Kate Winslet or Jodie Foster (who seems to really take to assholes, given her casting Gibson in The Beaver in 2010).

I really don't even want to think about all the poo poo Jodie Foster must have had to eat to get where she is. Being a child actor, and a sexualized one at that, and then having to live a closeted lifestyle for so long, all the while dealing with the garbage heap that was Hollywood. Whatever she decided was the best move for her at that moment I'm fine with it.

Basebf555
Feb 29, 2008

The greatest sensual pleasure there is is to know the desires of another!



Fun Shoe

Everything in Bay's films are used as toys to be played with(which of course is what made him so perfect for Transformers), but it makes it pretty tough to get into his head or gain any insight into who he is as a person. He goes so far out of his way to never ever have genuine pathos of any kind in his movies, and that includes sexuality. So I guess that does tell you something about the man but I'm not quite sure what.

Basebf555
Feb 29, 2008

The greatest sensual pleasure there is is to know the desires of another!



Fun Shoe

He's not really saying anything that wrong, I mean it's basically "we need to examine each of these men on a case by case basis and observe them over a long period of time and then as a society we can decide whether we want to accept them again."

But yea, wrong time for that message and he probably would have been better served by just keeping his mouth shut.

Basebf555
Feb 29, 2008

The greatest sensual pleasure there is is to know the desires of another!



Fun Shoe

And lets remember that there's no Hollywood Board of Directors or whatever that will come to some decision on whether a Weinstein or Louis C.K. is officially "forgiven". They have to do the work necessary so that enough of society feels comfortable enjoying the entertainment they produce again, and then when that happens people in the industry will probably consider working with them again. So Cranston is really just describing in a factual way what will happen, that we as a society will be watching these fuckers and if they don't get their poo poo together in a really dramatic way then they will not be able to easily find work for the rest of their lives(not that they need to in most cases).

Mechafunkzilla posted:

Forgiveness is one thing, and is something people can decide on an individual basis. But these abusers should absolutely not be working in movies again.

See my post above. There's no all powerful ruler of Hollywood that will just declare that Weinstein and the rest can't work in movies again. It's up to society to decide that, if the industry senses that we're ok with it, they will work again, straight up.

Basebf555 fucked around with this message at 20:29 on Nov 14, 2017

Basebf555
Feb 29, 2008

The greatest sensual pleasure there is is to know the desires of another!



Fun Shoe

Mechafunkzilla posted:

"Society" making a decision that would invalidate and re-traumatize their victims would still be wrong. Society had previously made a collective decision that sexual assault is not a big deal and if you accuse a powerful man of it your career is over, and that was wrong too -- not going along with societal consensus requires leadership and integrity, which we generally see as virtues.

But again, Cranston said that each of these men would be dealt with on a case by case basis, and I agree. Some of these guys are rapists, some have committed lesser forms of sexual assault, and some are guilty only of sexual misconduct in the workplace. So you really need to look at each situation and decide for yourself whether forgiveness is an option or not, and society as a whole will be doing that as time goes on.

"Forgiveness" doesn't mean that the person gets to simply re-claim their previous position with no lasting repercussions. Forgiveness will also be case by case, as in, maybe Weinstein will one day be able to walk the streets without fear of getting his rear end beat, and maybe one day that level of forgiveness will be justified based on what he does to deserve it. If in 5 years Louis CK has done a ton of work on himself and has made some concrete efforts to help others and undo as much of the damage he caused as he can, well then I'm not going to say it's automatically wrong to work with him again.

So yea, case by case is important.

Basebf555
Feb 29, 2008

The greatest sensual pleasure there is is to know the desires of another!



Fun Shoe

I don't see how it could be Jason Alexander because he never had a second long running t.v. show. It seems to be referring to Cranston hitting on girls on the set of Malcom in the Middle.

Basebf555
Feb 29, 2008

The greatest sensual pleasure there is is to know the desires of another!



Fun Shoe

Mechafunkzilla posted:

Their road to "real growth" doesn't mean poo poo to someone who goes to see a movie and the guy who once cornered them in a room while jerking off is up there on the big screen. Or who has to drop out of a production because the now-forgiven person will be working on it.

Well I definitely would say that if I were someone out there considering hiring someone like a Louis CK, in addition to the years of work I'd want to see him out there doing first(outreach to victims, speaking to raise awareness, etc.), I would also want to see that he was forgiven by the women he hurt directly. Which is up to them, that's something for them to decide personally whether they choose to forgive.

But I agree, I don't think it would be right to put a past victimizer into a production unless first and foremost the victim has decided to forgive. But that does happen, we've seen it happen many times. People are resilient and forgiveness is a choice that a lot of victims find to be cathartic.

Basebf555
Feb 29, 2008

The greatest sensual pleasure there is is to know the desires of another!



Fun Shoe

It's definitely wrong to try to get into a victim's head and interpret why they chose to come forward at a particular time. So many factors go into that and each person's situation is unique(both victim and perpetrator), so it's pointless at best.

Basebf555
Feb 29, 2008

The greatest sensual pleasure there is is to know the desires of another!



Fun Shoe

peer posted:

Sure, totally, I agree, and of course it's great that she's taking a stand against Ratner. I've just seen a lot of both women and men portraying her as a champion of modern feminism recently, which in light of her past statements is pretty gross.

Some of that is related to the Wonder Woman character though, she kinda comes with the feminist icon mantle so playing her automatically causes people to want to cast you in that light.

Basebf555
Feb 29, 2008

The greatest sensual pleasure there is is to know the desires of another!



Fun Shoe

Does Glover ever offer anything as proof other than the fact that Spielberg has child characters in most of his movies and was friends with Michael Jackson? Have there been any whispers of anyone accusing him of anything in the past? Are there any now? I 100% believe Feldman when he says a really powerful person in the industry molested him but there are plenty of those, not sure what would lead someone to assume Spielberg.

I don't want Spielberg to be a child molester, I admit, it would really make me see a lot of my childhood memories in a different light.

Basebf555
Feb 29, 2008

The greatest sensual pleasure there is is to know the desires of another!



Fun Shoe

It's unfortunate but there's simply no way to continue the show without Tambor. This is part of the issue when it comes to show business, the star of the show is crucial to the ongoing employment of a ton of other people, and that of course ends up being a huge factor when it comes to victims' decision to come forward or not.

Basebf555
Feb 29, 2008

The greatest sensual pleasure there is is to know the desires of another!



Fun Shoe

Cash Monet posted:

Don't turn out to be a monster, Scorsese. :ohdear:

Wouldn't really effect me, I've always had a hard time separating the man from this bit part he played(and wrote) in Taxi Driver:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_szlzh9Dgrw

Totally unfair on my part to judge him for that alone, but I'm just describing the connection that was made in my brain between the character and the real person that I've had a hard time shaking over the years, it's not something I really can control. I know for myself that in a million years I could never come up with dialogue that disgusting, it's just not in me.

Every time I've seen him interviewed about film in the past 30 years though he comes across as extremely nice and engaging.

Basebf555
Feb 29, 2008

The greatest sensual pleasure there is is to know the desires of another!



Fun Shoe

Uncle Boogeyman posted:

I do really wish we could shy away from extrapolating which artists we think are predators based on the art they made (Larry Clark notwithstanding)

You're right, that really wasn't the intention of my post but obviously this isn't the right thread to be just throwing random thoughts out there. My bad.

Al Borland Corp. posted:

What if Tambor's character got gender confirmation plastic surgery and altered her face? Then they could have an actual transwoman play the part.

I don't watch the show, maybe she already got confirmation surgery.

Tambor's performance is what drives everything though, so if you get rid of him you may as well just do a completely new show about a different transwoman.

Basebf555
Feb 29, 2008

The greatest sensual pleasure there is is to know the desires of another!



Fun Shoe

It really was just a stream of consciousness post that I didn't put a ton of thought into and maybe I should edit it out? When I hear Scorsese brought up I immediately think of that scene I can't really help it.

Basebf555
Feb 29, 2008

The greatest sensual pleasure there is is to know the desires of another!



Fun Shoe

Uncle Boogeyman posted:

This part I was unsure about since I know Scorsese has a tendency to rewrite dialogue on the fly on his movies

Yea I had that wrong, I thought he'd written the scene.

Basebf555
Feb 29, 2008

The greatest sensual pleasure there is is to know the desires of another!



Fun Shoe

True, there have been a long list of reasons to hate Gene Simmons for years before now.

Basebf555
Feb 29, 2008

The greatest sensual pleasure there is is to know the desires of another!



Fun Shoe

Al Borland Corp. posted:

I think the idea that actors are so good they're "irreplaceable" is part of the reason they get away with poo poo. It's worth a shot.

I suppose I agree that's worth a shot, but I wouldn't be optimistic that it would work out. Unfortunately the idea that an actor's performance could be so good that it's irreplaceable is a reality, sometimes performances are just that good that entire productions revolve around them. Like, if Mads Mikelssen had decided to decline to continue with Hannibal, I'd have said hey it's a shame that it has to end but there's no way you can replace him.

Basebf555 fucked around with this message at 17:30 on Nov 17, 2017

Basebf555
Feb 29, 2008

The greatest sensual pleasure there is is to know the desires of another!



Fun Shoe

Oh I definitely think Tambor needs to go, regardless of what the consequences might be for the production itself.

But I actually like your idea there about just switching over to a brand new character that examines the issue of transitioning from a new perspective. But obviously the casting would have to be a home run for it to work.

Basebf555
Feb 29, 2008

The greatest sensual pleasure there is is to know the desires of another!



Fun Shoe

Davros1 posted:

I've never watched the show, so can't really comment on the characters, but would it be possible to have one of the other characters comes to term with who they are, and inspired by Tambor's character's decision, decide to transition themselves?

Nobody else currently on the show could just carry it on their shoulders like Tambor can(at least in my opinion). I think you'd have to go outside and nab a legit lead actor to get people to buy in.

Basebf555
Feb 29, 2008

The greatest sensual pleasure there is is to know the desires of another!



Fun Shoe

Grouchio posted:

Flip him off and carry on?

Flipping someone off is an unprofessional response that could potentially get a person fired, which goes to show the power dynamic that's going on in a situation like that. Simmons feels totally free to just make crude sexual remarks towards random women in a work situation, and it's not cool because they may not all feel comfortable enough to just, as you say, flip him off and carry on.

Following him out to the parking lot was actually more reasonable response than he deserved, because the exchange didn't take place in front of everyone else.

Basebf555
Feb 29, 2008

The greatest sensual pleasure there is is to know the desires of another!



Fun Shoe

Yea when it comes to public embarrassment a lot of celebrities understand that they have to just eat it and accept that the public will never look at them the same way again.

But when it comes to actual financial ruin or legal jeopardy, as in the people you hurt could potentially come in and take huge amounts of the money you made that was supposed to support an extremely comfortable lifestyle for the rest of your life, many of them will literally do whatever it takes to protect themselves. Victim blaming, frivolous counter-lawsuits, stalking and intimidation, it's all fair game once they realize their cush lifestyle might be in danger of permanently going away.

Basebf555
Feb 29, 2008

The greatest sensual pleasure there is is to know the desires of another!



Fun Shoe

precision posted:

Yeah... I don't know about this. It sounds like it could have been a legitimate misunderstanding. Franken would have to be just... incredibly stupid to do that, at a public event, while in office? And instead of saying something, with her husband right there, she just smiles? Eh... my brain hurts.

The fact that he's a Senator doing it in the middle of a public event makes it even less likely for her to say something, or at least it could depending on the person. Most people aren't looking to make a huge awkward scene when they show up to take a picture with a Senator and she probably just tried her best to pretend it didn't happen.

This is the same poo poo people have said about Moore. "How dumb would an assistant D.A. have to be to seduce a 14 year old girl right there in the court house! How dumb would Moore have to be to sign the yearbook of someone that he assaulted? Why haven't these women come forward in 30+ years?"

These guys think they are invincible and rubbing it in the faces of women as they do it is part of the power play that they're getting off on. Much like Trump said, "they just let you do it". The fact that women are often too stunned and embarrassed to say anything is part of the fun for them, it's a demonstration of their power.

Basebf555
Feb 29, 2008

The greatest sensual pleasure there is is to know the desires of another!



Fun Shoe


It really doesn't complicate things at all. Those women have the right to speak out in defense of Franken if they choose to but this isn't some mathematical formula where if X amount of women say that Franken never harassed/assaulted them then that means the accusations aren't true. Nobody is arguing that he compulsively went around grabbing the rear end of every woman he ever encountered.

Basebf555
Feb 29, 2008

The greatest sensual pleasure there is is to know the desires of another!



Fun Shoe

A thinking person sees a list like that(not unlike the women who have come out to defend Roy Moore) and understands that just because Franken had good relationships with them it doesn't mean these accusers are lying. I really don't see it having much effect, just as the Roy Moore defenders haven't. People are going to now see Franken as a slimy sexual harasser(at best), and Moore as a child predator, these lists don't change that. If some right wing wackos go to the polls and vote for Moore anyway it's not because of some random list of women/pastors who say what a great guy he is. They'll vote for him because they'd rather die than let a Democrat win, and no other reason.

Basebf555
Feb 29, 2008

The greatest sensual pleasure there is is to know the desires of another!



Fun Shoe

Vegetable posted:

I'm not being facetious, but you're starting off on the wrong premise there. This entire issue isn't remotely about what a thinking person understands.

I know it's easy to be pessimistic in 2017, and believe me I am a lot of the time. But I really do believe that the average person is intelligent enough to understand the (non)importance of lists like that. Whether they'll come out and say that when they're arguing with someone on the other side is a different matter. So in that sense I guess I can see how it complicates the issue, people spend so much time arguing past each other these days without ever actually getting to the real meat of the issue(usually because they don't want to).

Basebf555
Feb 29, 2008

The greatest sensual pleasure there is is to know the desires of another!



Fun Shoe

That's one thing that older people need to really absorb and understand about how the culture has changed. Older man being "handsy" and touching legs or other even more inappropriate places during photos or hugs was considered normal operating procedure for a long time but finally we're saying you need to cut that poo poo out. I'm sure Lasseter didn't think of himself as guilty of sexual assault but guess what buddy, you were. Younger guys I hope already understand this.

Basebf555
Feb 29, 2008

The greatest sensual pleasure there is is to know the desires of another!



Fun Shoe

ImpAtom posted:

I am pretty sure he knew exactly what he was doing. This isn't poo poo that was unknown 30 years ago.

He knew what he was doing but I doubt it ever crossed his mind that it would ever be a problem, because up to now our culture as more or less accepted it. Trump was 100% right, if you have enough money and power you could grope anyone you wanted to and there would never be any consequences. Now there are consequences, and if knowing that prevents some creeps from acting out their gross fantasies then so be it. Would be better if they chose self-awareness, positive change, and personal growth, but that's probably asking too much from old rich white men.

Basebf555
Feb 29, 2008

The greatest sensual pleasure there is is to know the desires of another!



Fun Shoe

ImpAtom posted:

Oh, I misunderstood you, I thought you were saying "He didn't realize he was doing anything wrong." We're on the same page.

Sexual assault and rape are very strong words, and I think older generations were parsing all of these creepy behaviors a lot more than we do as a way to be able to ignore the handsyness of some men. So someone like Lasseter I'm sure knew deep down that what he was doing was wrong, but at the same time I doubt he thinks of himself as a "sexual predator" or one of those more intense labels that he 100% deserves.

I'm also seeing people even today make comments about how "well if it's wrong now for a boss to try to date an employee then we've really gone off the deep end!"

No fuckhead, actually we really need men to stop trying to pursue romantic relationships with their own employees. It's bad.

Basebf555
Feb 29, 2008

The greatest sensual pleasure there is is to know the desires of another!



Fun Shoe

When women in positions of power sexually harassing men in the workplace is a major widespread problem then we can focus on that. Right now I'm ok with saying that men are the primary issue here.

Basebf555
Feb 29, 2008

The greatest sensual pleasure there is is to know the desires of another!



Fun Shoe

Nobody should be sexually assaulted under any circumstances, do I really have to state that?

But this thread is about discussion of the widespread harassment and abuse in Hollywood and also the workplace in general. So I don't think that the assault of prison inmates is really relevant, and yes I do believe that there are many, many more men abusing their position in the workplace to hit on women than the reverse. Part of it is simply that there are still a bunch of industries that are totally dominated by men.

Basebf555
Feb 29, 2008

The greatest sensual pleasure there is is to know the desires of another!



Fun Shoe

Polygraphs aren't really useful unless they're one piece of an all encompassing investigation(like how law enforcement uses them). If you just want to be able to ask someone a question and be able to trust that they're answering honestly without having to look into the matter any further, no polygraphs aren't really worth much.

If the cops are looking at someone for a crime and they fail a polygraph they don't automatically go "Ok that's enough, charge this rear end in a top hat", it's just a tool to help narrow the focus of the investigation. It's similar to psychological profiling, it's no magic bullet but if it's used in combination with good old fashioned police work it can be useful.

Basebf555
Feb 29, 2008

The greatest sensual pleasure there is is to know the desires of another!



Fun Shoe

This whole thing is stupid. Recently a whole lot of prominent men in show business have been accused of these kind of offenses. So, in a post about that issue, I said "men need to..." instead of also including women in the sentence. Another poster took issue with that and said I should have included both genders in my post.

The stories coming out have all been about men, and so I said "men". That's really all this is about but go ahead and run wild with it I guess.

Basebf555
Feb 29, 2008

The greatest sensual pleasure there is is to know the desires of another!



Fun Shoe

esperterra posted:

To be fair, this was your response to my initial post and this is what I ran with.

And now we're off into debating what women would do if they were in men's position. It's dumb because that's a fantasy scenario where we're pretending that the last X number of decades/centuries didn't happen where men have dominated everything and for the most part had power over women(and as we're finding out, still do).

So you can argue about all that all you want, and of course any time sexual assault happens its a heinous crime, but right now we're in a thread that was created to talk about a problem almost exclusively created by men.

Basebf555
Feb 29, 2008

The greatest sensual pleasure there is is to know the desires of another!



Fun Shoe

precision posted:

Nobody is discounting that there are more men in power in certain fields, especially Hollywood.

To me that's justification enough to make a post where I specify that "men" should do something without having to get into a semantic argument about it.

Really though, it'd be great to turn the entire thing around and make it so women were equally paid for their work and had many more powerful positions in all of these industries, but I thought maybe at least for now we could settle for just not sexually harassing and assaulting them.

Basebf555 fucked around with this message at 22:59 on Nov 22, 2017

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Basebf555
Feb 29, 2008

The greatest sensual pleasure there is is to know the desires of another!



Fun Shoe

With Robin Wright still on board they could just continue on with her and it would still mostly feel like House of Cards. Without her though it's a complete waste of time(and might be anyway considering the recent quality of the show). I wonder what her current contract situation is. If she's in any position of leverage she could probably ask for a ton of money.

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