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KitConstantine
Jan 11, 2013

Ask me about women's ~Science~


GrandpaPants posted:

I can't say whether it's on topic, but I'd like to know more or at least pointed to a thread where it's being discussed.

Also being discussed here

https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3871543&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=159

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KitConstantine
Jan 11, 2013

Ask me about women's ~Science~


Story just came out about Ansel Elgort so Baby Driver's icky for two reasons now!

WARNING: The story is kinda graphic so read at your own risk. I've put it in spoiler tags in case

https://twitter.com/ltsgabby/status/1273974928853827584?s=20

KitConstantine
Jan 11, 2013

Ask me about women's ~Science~


Vagabundo posted:

Since the account holder has made her tweets private (going to guess "torrents of abuse from angry Ansel stans"), it's an allegation that he raped a 17 year-old girl (I think it's the person who made the claim on Twitter) back in 2014.

Correct, the person I linked to was the victim herself coming forward. Though I've seen a few other allegations popping up today of him dm'ing other 16/17 year olds as well.

Seems like he's a habitual predator from reports.

KitConstantine
Jan 11, 2013

Ask me about women's ~Science~


Sodomy Hussein posted:

The entire wrestling industry is a #metoo bomb waiting to go off, as the baseline behavior of even top of the industry wrestlers is amazingly scummy. One of the most famous women wrestlers ran a prostitution ring using recruits that helped lead women's wrestling to mostly be a joke with no punchline for decades.

As well, it's come out that many WWE-tier wrestlers have #metoo problems and there have already been firings.

https://bleedingcool.com/tv/speakingout-wwe-airs-matt-riddle-debut-releases-jack-gallagher/

Notably the main difference between Gallagher and Riddle is that WWE wants to push Riddle, and Gallagher is a smaller wrestler generally used as a comedy act/jobber.

It isn't waiting to go off - it's been blowing up the last few days. SA has a thread- link below. Ranges across the spectrum of sexual assault and abuse, all levels of the sport, mostly in the UK/EU and US for now, but people are waiting to see if Japanese wresting has its own reckoning.

https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3928394&pagenumber=32&perpage=40

KitConstantine
Jan 11, 2013

Ask me about women's ~Science~


thrawn527 posted:

Haha, that's awesome, gently caress that guy, anyone with that reaction deserves whatever comes their way.

On that note, response from the comedian who made Chris semi-famous by putting him on her sitcom (at least that's where I first saw him).

https://twitter.com/WhitneyCummings/status/1274407841571299328

I find it somewhat hard to believe she didn't know, based on what I've read about how apparently everyone knew, but whatever.

I hate that last sentence. It comes up over and over when these accusations come out and any of these dudes happen to have a woman in their professional or personal circle.

It may surprise you, but women aren't psychic. These men are canny if not always smart. They know how to hide their predatory behavior from women that aren't their flavor of victim. Many do it on purpose so that they have a shield - "Oh well that women likes him, maybe those rumors aren't true after all. I mean, she would know if they were right?" It's a hunting strategy.

And this may also surprise you but people are often hesitant to tell other people their friends are predatory. Especially if they think they already know or if they don't have any proof. Plus his targets were teenage girls and the people who seemed to be aware of this open secret were either also gross dudebros or not neccessarily on the same professional level as Cummings and may have thought telling her would blow up their career as she was apparently friends with that guy.

It's just another way of deflecting responsibility and blame from men's behavior to women.

KitConstantine
Jan 11, 2013

Ask me about women's ~Science~


Boywhiz88 posted:

Yes and no. Like you I learned about Chris from the show “Whitney.” Here’s the thing though: I’ve found comedians to be extremely close-knit. If you look at like, Chelsea Peretti, Joe Mande, Aziz Ansari, and John Mulaney’s careers, you’ll see there’s a ton of intermingling and being put on by one another.

Same with the 90s alt-scene and people like Patton Oswalt, Brian Posehn, and a bunch of folks that were on Mr. Show.

So, I’m saying that Chris gets “Whitney” because he’s tight w Whitney. HOWEVER, this is like... 2011 and he wasn’t really anywhere. Basically, if it started up post-“Whitney”, I can see her not knowing, but if he has been doing it his whole career, I think it’s hard to deny ANY knowledge of it.

Does she know? I don’t know and that’s hers and maybe Chris’ to know, but I also don’t think it’s wrong to ask her “wait, really?”

You can ask, but it's not like Chris and other male comedians wouldn't be aware that women would be likely to disapprove of his behavior/call him out and were more careful about discussing it around her/other women. This comes up again and again in multiple fields - gross men have a few token women in their circle as a shield and are careful not to drop mask around them. Something gross comes out and those women are asked "Well why didn't you know he was gross??" Um, because these men are fully capable of not behaving in a gross way when they want to? They aren't assaulting/sexually harassing the men they work with/are friends with either because they aren't their preferred victims/they have something to gain from them

There's also the additional pressure in the comedy circuit for women to just put up with gross stuff since it's such a male dominated industry. Can we say Louis C. K.?

I'm not saying women in abuser's circles are always unaware. Some may be unwilling to rock the boat if all they have are rumors. But I do think it's really gross how people assume the women in these situations "must know" and by implication must have stood by and done nothing. I don't like how people are so willing to shift some of the blame from the man doing the actions to women, even by implication.

Here's the thing - even if they did know HE is still the abuser. It shouldn't be the responsibility of the women in the room to call out abusers for being abusive at their own personal and professional risk. For a long time the consequence for women speaking up to people in the same industry (even more so the media) about a broken stair was professional suicide.

KitConstantine fucked around with this message at 14:50 on Jun 22, 2020

KitConstantine
Jan 11, 2013

Ask me about women's ~Science~


Schwarzwald posted:

Conflating people with narcissistic personality disorder and predators is gross.

Hard agree. Being an abuser doesn't mean you have a mental illness and vice versa.

Abuse is not an illness. It's not something these people are forced to do (no matter what they may claim). It's a choice these people make over and over to put their wants ahead of other people's well-being. Don't absolve them of a single ounce of responsibility for the harm they do.

KitConstantine
Jan 11, 2013

Ask me about women's ~Science~


Martman posted:

whereas 300's costumes are proof of male gays

You're joking, but their physique is absolutely defined by male gaze. The over-the-top muscular cut body is a male power fantasy not a woman's sexual fantasy. It appears homoerotic because men are the target audience for the power fantasy the spartans embody (literally).

KitConstantine
Jan 11, 2013

Ask me about women's ~Science~


sexpig by night posted:

like said it's not just about 'does this picture get me hard', 300 is not a film shot for titillation of women, it's a power fantasy for men, and the bodies involved are part of that. I mean if your point is just 'male gaze is likely the wrong specific word for this' then yea I probably agree but the bodies in 300 are part of the same kind of psychosexual stuff that 'make the super hero lady's outfit sexy so the cute boyman can be flustered by how hot she is' does.

Exactly this. Women find fit men attractive, but it's not that simple. The entire framing of 300 is about how powerful the men are, their prowess at fighting and their domination of the opponent. It's not framed as jerk off material for women but as something aspirational/an unattainable ideal for men.

I would argue that 'male gaze' is the correct term because the whole movie is about the masculine ideal of the Spartans vs the degenerate variations of Persians. And I'd point you to the scene with the sybils near the end of the first third as the pinaccle of the male gaze as applied to women.

Edit: and if we want to stay vaguely topical the only woman framed as remotely powerful in the entire movie is a) the protagonist's wife and b)is raped by the traitorous spartan antagonist. She gets her revenge but her violation isnt about her as a person, she's a vessel to hurt the protagonist in absentia.

KitConstantine fucked around with this message at 03:24 on Jul 10, 2020

KitConstantine
Jan 11, 2013

Ask me about women's ~Science~


Schwarzwald posted:

Just to be clear, what you've written here is that the Spartans are shot as passive sex objects for the Persians and the audience to desire.

I do not think that's what you meant.

No it isn't what I wrote, you don't understand what the "male gaze" as a term encompasses.

The Spartans are hetero men framed through the male gaze as in the (male) audience are supposed to narcissisticly see themselves in these hypermasculine supermen, in contrast to the frequently feminized and/or physically degraded masculinity of the Persians. The definition of male gaze is "the perspective of a notionally typical heterosexual man considered as embodied in the audience or intended audience for films and other visual media , characterized by a tendency to objectify or sexualize women".The "male gaze" does not have only one characteristic.

The male gaze also frames how the world and other men are depicted. The Persians as shown on screen are almost exclusively men, So no the male gaze doesn't automatically mean they are being sexualized/the aggressor sexualizing the Spartans, though do you recall how Xerxes is depicted? Physically bigger and stronger than the Spartans, talks to/tries to the intimidate the protagonist in what is framed as a sexually aggressive way? The whole "kneel" scene is pretty pivotal. It could be argued Xerxes sexualized and dehumanized Leonidas in a way typically reserved for female characters. The director admitted he was using the threat of predatory homosexuality to make Xerxes more frightening to the hetero male audience - quote from a contemporary entertainment weekly article:

"The director says that the film’s (homo)sexual undertones were intended to make young straight males in the audience uncomfortable, because “What’s more scary to a 20-year-old boy than a giant god-king who wants to have his way with you?”

Even the basic wikipedia summary for the theory says it doesn't exclusively relate to how women are depicted.

Edit: the whole "well women think hot dudes are hot so it can't be the male gaze" thing? Put simply, the intended audience for male superhero toys, abs and all, isn't girls and women. Women's interest in superhero films/moreso tv until super recently seen as either neutral or negative - it meant the piece of media wasn't tightly focused enough on the "proper" demo of men 18-35.

Also lol if you think hollywood wouldn't be casting hot dudes either way. They're loving movies, usually leads in movies, even action movies, are hot. Was Stallone cast in Rambo because they wanted women to come gaze at his pouty lips and 80s hair?

KitConstantine fucked around with this message at 17:28 on Jul 10, 2020

KitConstantine
Jan 11, 2013

Ask me about women's ~Science~


WeedlordGoku69 posted:

the only point i was trying to make there is that 300 is, at the bare minimum, an example of how male-gaze power fantasy can intersect with female-gaze sexual fantasy weirdly, if not an outright deliberate invocation of that intersection

it's ostensibly trying to make the Spartans into a male power fantasy, but it ends up sexually objectifying the living hell out of them in the process, in a way that basically everybody who's remotely into dudes noticed, and even most straight guys noted as the movie being "gay as hell"

Straight women just might have a different ideal of what's attractive than what male executives think it is. Did the whole Dad Bod thing pass you by? The male leads in rom coms (often made by women!) look different to the leads in action movies. The reason is the target audience. More men go to action movies - the male leads look that way because men want them to. There's a reason 300 is referred to as "gay as hell" - it's a man's vision of peak male attractiveness

I'm a straight woman. I can tell you that while Chris Evans as Captain America had female fans, Chris Evans in Knives Out had whole instagram accounts dedicated to the sweater looks alone. (Yes Rian Johnson is a dude but the costume designer was a woman and the clothing aesthetic is very Nancy Meyers)

KitConstantine fucked around with this message at 03:06 on Jul 11, 2020

KitConstantine
Jan 11, 2013

Ask me about women's ~Science~


thrawn527 posted:

Yikes, that was a rough read. Good for her for outing him as complete sleaze. That can't have been easy to go back through.

The photographer who sexually assaulted responded to the article and called her accusations 'childish' (which tells you what he thinks is okay to do to children) and essentially said she had asked for it by doing the Blurred Lines video, just in case you thought he wasn't literally a cartoon villain.

KitConstantine
Jan 11, 2013

Ask me about women's ~Science~


thrawn527 posted:

That's actually covered in the article. That was his response when the fact checker she worked with reached out to him for comment before publishing the article.

I think I missed that part when I read the article, thanks for pointing it out. It was a tough read for me emotionally so I think I stopped reading as closely by the end.

KitConstantine
Jan 11, 2013

Ask me about women's ~Science~


WeedlordGoku69 posted:

it's kind of "yes" and that's a lot of the problem

e: like it's an AIDS metaphor, yeah, but it's very specifically a metaphor for being a gay dude with AIDS, and it's the literal only gay representation of any kind in the books other than Dumbledore, who only arguably counts.

Especially gross when you consider the only other named werewolf in the books is evil and specifically sets out to turn children, and in fact turned the good guy werewolf when he was a young boy

KitConstantine
Jan 11, 2013

Ask me about women's ~Science~


Baudolino posted:

Aziz was in that situation perhaps similar to fratdude who organizes a party on a boat with a bunch of his friends and some local women. One of the women migth feel like they better suck them off even if she finds them unappealing because of the implications inherit to the situation. What the guys were really thinking no one can ever know, probably the idea that she felt threatened never entered their minds. So the sin lies with longstanding cultural norms that allows circumstances like that to occur and not so much with the fratdude himself.
A love the sinner hate the sin situation.
Aziz did`nt do a bad thing himself but he was representative of bad things. There is a world of difference between him and wanker Lois.
His netflix show wasn`t that great tough, very self-indulgent. His fall was no great tragedy for the arts.

Aziz did do a bad thing. He made a woman super uncomfortable and ignored her signals hoping he could change her mind about sex. Just because he didn't rape her doesn't make what he did okay. You are doing the exact thing that Precambrian discussed in their post - excusing him on the grounds of 'how could he know' when with a single second of empathy and self-reflection on his part and he would have known.

That's the whole point of this. Doing a bad thing doesn't make him a bad person forever, but not being a 'bad person' doesn't make the thing not bad.

KitConstantine
Jan 11, 2013

Ask me about women's ~Science~


pentyne posted:


What the article failed tremendously at, and what a good journalist would've focused on, is how Aziz's behavior is not atypical from men who see women as simply a means for their own pleasure but aren't actually sex offenders, and how women are socially conditioned to put up with and go along that kind of lovely treatment for the sake of decorum.

Her options at that point were bad and trying to non verbally signal to someone you aren't interested in the slightest is one of the only things women can do to not be called a crazy bitch who must've been on their period.

I think that's the hard thing for men to acknowledge - a lot of men who don't see themselves as bad guys have done the thing Aziz did. Therefore it must not be bad because if it is then they are just as guilty, and that can't possibly be true.

KitConstantine
Jan 11, 2013

Ask me about women's ~Science~


coronavirus posted:

Why would he have to piss clean? Is he on probation?

Part of the custody agreement in his ongoing divorce I believe.

KitConstantine
Jan 11, 2013

Ask me about women's ~Science~


Interview with the documentarians behind Allen v. Farrow - the most interesting part is that a lot of the videos and documents they accessed were genuinely never before shared. They weren't inaccessible, just no one went looking.

https://www.vulture.com/2021/03/how-allen-v-farrow-obtained-the-dylan-farrow-home-videotape.html

KitConstantine
Jan 11, 2013

Ask me about women's ~Science~


Vintersorg posted:

Jesus loving christ....

Like, I guess thank god he's not really the focal point of Call Me By Your Name but it just sullies it... what a fucker.

There have been statements from a number of women that he was into hosed up poo poo and not above manipulating and pressuring them to get it, along with fantasies about *super* hosed up poo poo.

But that appears to be a family trait. Vanity Fair has a good article going into the history. https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2021/03/the-fall-of-armie-hammer-a-family-saga-of-sex-money-drugs-and-betrayal

KitConstantine
Jan 11, 2013

Ask me about women's ~Science~


CelticPredator posted:

I just found it interesting and funny.

He was also just accused of rape so not all that funny really

KitConstantine
Jan 11, 2013

Ask me about women's ~Science~


Boywhiz88 posted:

I was gonna make the point about Oswalt, as it's been mentioned that he's like a go-to for a ton of blockbusters.

Also, some days I really do think he killed his wife. Out of maybe wanting to be out of the relationship, and maybe of out jealousy of Michelle's inevitable climb to true-crime fame after she inevitably solved it.

What the gently caress dude! They had a daughter together why the gently caress would you think that? That's a pretty huge accusation to make even in a dead forum.

KitConstantine
Jan 11, 2013

Ask me about women's ~Science~


Boywhiz88 posted:

I mostly said it as an off-handed joke and referral to an old thread of mine: https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3837017&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=1


Can you see how that joke might not seem all that funny in a thread about real abusers and rapists?

Not to mention you follow saying "it's a joke bro" with "but there's a small possibility in my mind". You're not joking, you're just being a weird rear end in a top hat about a famous guy you don't know.

KitConstantine
Jan 11, 2013

Ask me about women's ~Science~


Bust Rodd posted:

Wizards of the Coast is the globe’s foremost consumer of fantasy art, it is essentially the fantasy artwork olympics, if you’re a talented fantasy artist it’s probably the cushiest job you could ask for. If a company employs literally thousands of fantasy artists, you can’t hold it against them if some of them aren’t upstanding moral citizens.

Counterpoint (if this isn't sarcasm): yes, yes you loving can.

KitConstantine
Jan 11, 2013

Ask me about women's ~Science~


pentyne posted:

When the thing is sexual harassment?

This is the key.

In a vacuum thinking dicks are funny and weird is ok. Contextually in an intentionally comedic situation in a film or TV show they can continue to be funny.

However when your response to imagining dealing with a person in a real-life work situation having their dick out is to be like "yeah I know it wouldn't be cool to do it because it would hurt other people, but *I* still think it would be hilarious because dicks are always hilarious" is weird and hosed up. In the context of an event that happened in an actual workplace someone having their dick out isn't funny.

KitConstantine
Jan 11, 2013

Ask me about women's ~Science~


Lovely Joe Stalin posted:

Look, I'm more ideologically pure than you because I read that thing you said in slightly the wrong way, so now I have to fight you because that's far more productive than having a discourse that advances our shared goals.

What does this have to do with ideological purity? I'm allowed to think someone is gross if they find the idea of nonconsensual dick flashing at work funny.

Because it is gross. The privilege of finding that kind of situation funny rather than threatening is limited to people who will never be in a situation where getting flashed is an implicit or explicit threat. Not even necessarily sexual threat, but it's a display of power at the minimum. Or should Lewis C K have been able to get away with his "as a joke" defense?

Please note I am discussing reality only here. Fictional depictions of dick flashing are not the topic of this thread

Edit to add: dick flashing consensually among friends is also not the topic of this thread, nor was it the situation being discussed, namely: walking into a work meeting on site cock out

KitConstantine fucked around with this message at 01:14 on May 5, 2021

KitConstantine
Jan 11, 2013

Ask me about women's ~Science~


sethsez posted:

Nobody said this was an acceptable defense. It is, in fact, the exact opposite of what's being said.

Are you even reading what you're replying to?

KitConstantine posted:

I'm allowed to think someone is gross if they find the idea of nonconsensual dick flashing at work funny.

Because it is gross. The privilege of finding that kind of situation funny rather than threatening is limited to people who will never be in a situation where getting flashed is an implicit or explicit threat. Not even necessarily sexual threat, but it's a display of power at the minimum. [Snip]

Please note I am discussing reality only here. Fictional depictions of dick flashing are not the topic of this thread

Edit to add: dick flashing consensually among friends is also not the topic of this thread, nor was it the situation being discussed, namely: walking into a work meeting on site cock out

Better? What's your response to my actual argument here

KitConstantine
Jan 11, 2013

Ask me about women's ~Science~


NotJustANumber99 posted:

I think there might also be an aspect to consider of hollywood acting types often being incredible extroverts, doing extreme and unconventional things and being celebrated for it and that shaping their decision making processes . Not excusing anything, just thinking out loud, maybe its bollocks.

Okay so you can see again how this comes off as making excuses for sexual harassment right? Like come on, being extroverted and successful doesn't suddenly make you think flapping your dick around at work is okay!

Maybe you should think about why your posts keep coming across as making excuses for this kind of behavior. I don't think anyone requires a devil's advocate for sexual harassment

KitConstantine fucked around with this message at 00:12 on May 6, 2021

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KitConstantine
Jan 11, 2013

Ask me about women's ~Science~


Skwirl posted:

It's the same actress.

Pretty sure he's referring to the other actress from 16 Candles that Ringwald contacted - the one who played the drunk college GF that got 'traded' for underwear

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