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I ended up finishing this in one sitting, staying up late, because I couldn't stop reading it. Holy poo poo.
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Nov 15, 2017 18:26
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Stuporstar posted:I ended up finishing this in one sitting, staying up late, because I couldn't stop reading it. Holy poo poo. Welcome to the clan
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Nov 15, 2017 19:07
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Tbh when I read this book about a year ago I thought it was really good and it definitely brought about a strong emotional reaction from me however now that the book has matured in my mind im not so sure. While vann's writing definitely has technical merit, I feel the emotional response to the book, while strong, is fairly shallow and obvious. It is a well written book that struggles to crawl out from under the weight of its own gimmick imo
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Nov 15, 2017 20:43
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fridge corn posted:Tbh when I read this book about a year ago I thought it was really good and it definitely brought about a strong emotional reaction from me however now that the book has matured in my mind im not so sure. While vann's writing definitely has technical merit, I feel the emotional response to the book, while strong, is fairly shallow and obvious. It is a well written book that struggles to crawl out from under the weight of its own gimmick imo What gimmick.
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Nov 15, 2017 20:45
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Franchescanado posted:What gimmick. Uhhh the excessive child abuse porn?
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Nov 15, 2017 20:51
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fridge corn posted:Uhhh the excessive child abuse porn? I don't know if that's a "gimmick". The only thing that's a gimmick about the novel is maybe the fish pictures.
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Nov 15, 2017 20:53
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The fish pictures were cool
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Nov 15, 2017 20:54
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Your criticism is fair, fridge corn, but I don't think labeling major functions and conflict of the plot that heavily deals with the themes as a gimmick is accurate. House of Leaves has a gimmick. Aquarium has a divisive taboo conflict.
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Nov 15, 2017 20:58
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fridge corn posted:Uhhh the excessive child abuse porn? I don't think it counts as a gimmick when it is done so uniquely and well. Both the instances of abuse in the novel are so inseparable from what we know about the characters that they seem a natural result of their lives. If the novel relied on tired tropes of drunken fathers or routine beatings, I would agree. As it stands though, the roots of the cruelty are far more psychologically considered
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Nov 15, 2017 21:13
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Like, I think it's something of a cop out to consider something lesser because it's emotional response it causes in you is so visceral. Granted, the most empty of sentimental tripe and tragedy porn exists to create these same responses, but that doesn't make any novel that seeks such a response it's kin. Take, for instance, my favorite section of the novel "What it was like". It's gripping and intense and visceral, but those feelings are earned. They are not evoked by cheap tricks or tired tropes. They come from a rather sensitive portrayal of trauma and insecurity that constantly avoids vilifying the abuser. The cruelty does not come from base malevolence but instead from a person struggling to resolve their own feelings of rage and inadequacy
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Nov 15, 2017 21:22
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Mel Mudkiper posted:Like, I think it's something of a cop out to consider something lesser because it's emotional response it causes in you is so visceral. Granted, the most empty of sentimental tripe and tragedy porn exists to create these same responses, but that doesn't make any novel that seeks such a response it's kin. Yeah, that's a fair definition. A major theme is the cycle of abuse. It's not to titillate, and I don't think that it's emotionally manipulative just for being effective at evoking emotions. It works because it's very easy to put yourself in Caitlin's predicament, and because you want things to work out for this family. There are already underlying issues when we are introduced to Caitlin's mother. I think all of the portrayals are very human and handled with care. It was a hard read for me because--while I have had a decent family life growing up--I know many people who did not, who suffered at the hands of a loved one, or who was abusive because they were abused. Not only that, but Caitlin's strength and resolve throughout the novel elevates it higher than abusive/trauma porn. She's not merely a punching bag made to suffer for our enjoyment and then rescued at the end. Things only improve because she's willing to stand up for what she knows is right, or at least knows what's wrong, even if that means destroying her hero.
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Nov 15, 2017 22:02
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I'm not spoiling the entire block of text, so SPOILERS AHEAD: Another good point that Mel brought up is the intention of the mom, who isn't abusive out of hatred for her daughter or for malevolence. She genuinely thinks of it as justified therapy for herself and for her daughter's well-being. She's wrong, of course, and everything she does is completely unjustified, but the fact that she believes she is doing the right thing for herself, her daughter, and her facade of a family, is a pretty realistic portrayal, and shows the complexity at work in this. Our country's number one religion is Christianity, and many of it's denominations teach inherited sin. Cailtin must suffer because her mother suffered, and her mother's mother suffered (albeit differently). And Caitlin adopts the suffering as a surrogate to her grandfather, because she is willing to forgive her mother for anything, because she is capable of unconditional love; she believes her mother should be able to do the same thing, because it's what is considered The Right Thing To Do; this is what leads to the final conflict of the novel, and acts as the final catalyst for Caitlin to fully lose her innocence of the world and see her mother as she truly is. The irony is that the novel begins with the mom trying to find someone to love with many different terrible suitors, but isn't really able to love anyone, really, even her own daughter, because she's hardened herself to the emotional cruelty the world has already given her. Caitlin manages to teach her mother how to actually love people by losing her own innocent immature love for her idolized image of her mother. I know I'm jumping around with my ideas here, but this isn't AP Lit, so gently caress it.
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Nov 15, 2017 22:16
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Same: MORE SPOILERS As someone who's been in a similar hosed up situation, I'd say the psychology in this novel is spot on. It's hard to instantly stop loving someone when they suddenly turn into a monster, because you're totally in shock. It often takes that extra step over the line before you get fed up enough to say gently caress this poo poo. It's even harder when you're young and it's a parent because you can't just up and leave the loving bastard. And you can end up so angry for years, you have to watch you never take your anger at your abuser out on someone else when they accidentally stumble into your past—which made me not completely hate the mother, even though her past doesn't excuse her at all from taking it out on her daughter. Also the fish and the lesbian sideplot were a bright light in the abyss and I was thankful for both of them. If the novel had been totally dire from beginning to end, I would have angrily cast it aside as abuse porn. Instead, both the fish and sideplot fleshed out Caitlin as a person instead of just a stand in for a little girl with an abusive mom. E. I should probably mention I'm not trying to use "Mah experience!" to shut down discussion or anything. It's just what I took from it. I found this book cathartic. Stuporstar fucked around with this message at 01:01 on Nov 16, 2017 |
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Nov 15, 2017 22:41
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I agree with what most people are saying wrt this book, it's quite a good book and it handles its subject matter exceedingly well but ultimately I feel it's impact amounts to a slap in the face. It's painful but then again of course it is - what did you expect?
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Nov 16, 2017 08:27
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Stuporstar posted:Same: MORE SPOILERS Not at all, I appreciate the perspective
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Nov 16, 2017 15:45
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I've never actually participated in one of these BOTM before so not sure what the spoiler rules are, but anyway, this post will contain spoilers. Then again, I suppose if you've made it this far in the thread, you've either already read it or don't care to have things spoiled for you. This book was real god drat good. I haven't felt physically uncomfortable from reading a novel in a long time but the sheer rawness behind the, "this is what it was like," section definitely did it. One thing I'll add to the posters earlier who were saying the lesbian subplot felt tacked on - I think the reason it can feel that way is because we don't see the same relationship buildup between Caitlin and Shalini like we do for other characters. We see her relationship with her grandfather develop from its inception, we see her relationship with her mother evolve even over the early sections of the book, and even her relationship with Steve gets an arc. Perhaps I need to go back and re-read it, but I did not feel like there was that development with Shalini. When she was first introduced, she felt like a tertiary character akin to Mr. Gustofsan or that inspector who questions her when she's sitting in the trailer at the docks. So when they were then having a sleepover and kissing for the first time, it felt abrupt. I do remember there being a scene in there where Shalini hugged Caitlin while Caitlin was crying into a bathroom mirror but I remember feeling that that scene seemed random and didn't make much sense. This is not to say I thought the lesbian subplot felt tacked on - ultimately I feel it was incredibly vital to the story and there would have been a lot lost without it. Rather I'm positing why I think it could come across as tacked on to some people. Stuporstar posted:Same: MORE SPOILERS Personally I welcome the "Mah experience!" perspective for the simple reason that I honestly can't relate. There were several instances while I was reading where I questioned a character's actions or reactions to the abuse they were facing and had to keep reminding myself to more or less check my privileged, for lack of a better term. Hearing from people like you that the book accurately depicts the physical and emotional trauma of an abusive parent-child relationship (or any abusive relationship, really) is incredibly educational for someone like me who hasn't been through that kind of situation. Cpt. Mahatma Gandhi fucked around with this message at 21:55 on Nov 17, 2017 |
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Nov 17, 2017 21:29
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Cpt. Mahatma Gandhi posted:Personally I welcome the "Mah experience!" perspective for the simple reason that I honestly can't relate. There were several instances while I was reading where I questioned a character's actions or reactions to the abuse they were facing and had to keep reminding myself to more or less check my privileged, for lack of a better term. Hearing from people like you that the book accurately depicts the physical and emotional trauma of an abusive parent-child relationship (or any abusive relationship, really) is incredibly educational for someone like me who hasn't been through that kind of situation. I should probably add that this kind of experience is a specific kind of abuse that doesn't follow the "standard script," that is people whose abuse is a slow burn for years they can't escape. The Jeckle and Hyde type, where Jeckle seems totally loving and stable for years until some deeply-buried monster is revealed, is a royal mindfuck. In my case it was an ex whose assholism was barely foreshadowed before I moved to a small town with him and his hidden alcoholism suddenly manifested and changed him into a total piece of poo poo. It happened almost as fast as it did to Caitlin and resolved itself almost as quickly—I got the hell out of there as soon as I could and recovered ok. Caitlin's story ends up being hopeful in a similar way, because both she and her mom have people who love and support them (and probably won't let them alone in a room with each other again). Stuporstar fucked around with this message at 23:33 on Nov 17, 2017 |
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Nov 17, 2017 23:15
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What I also like about the ending is that it explicitly denies resolution. It says, there can be no resolution to this because no resolution to this exists. The grandfather will never be able to make up for his neglect. The mother will never be able to make up for her abuse. None of the characters will ever be able to atone for what they did. The turning point in their lives is realising that just because you cannot atone for the past, it doesnt mean you cannot do what is best now. The climax of the story is the grandfather realising that even though he did something unforgivable and irreparable, his attempts to atone by being so passive is only causing a new cycle of hurt. He realizes he can never fix the damage he caused to his daughter, but that doesn't mean he must stand by and allow his granddaughter to be abused because he feels guilty.
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Nov 18, 2017 00:29
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Need suggestions for next month
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Nov 21, 2017 03:09
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Chill dog you got ten days still how bout you read this book.and talk about it a little
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Nov 21, 2017 03:37
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Mel Mudkiper posted:Chill dog you got ten days still how bout you read this book.and talk about it a little Takes five days to gather noms, then five days to do the poll, then it's time for the new one. also I am still slowly working through The Peregrine and will get to this one in order I skipped ahead for Blackwater because it had river monsters
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Nov 21, 2017 03:51
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Need suggestions for next month Literary Taste: How to Form It by Arnold Bennett
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Nov 21, 2017 19:19
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pepperoni and keys posted:Literary Taste: How to Form It by Arnold Bennett This.
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Nov 21, 2017 22:32
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pepperoni and keys posted:Literary Taste: How to Form It by Arnold Bennett typical western bias
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Nov 21, 2017 22:41
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some more poetry would be nice and good
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Nov 22, 2017 10:50
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ulvir posted:some more poetry would be nice and good I would actually be down for this. I just picked up poetry thanks to the book lord challenge and really enjoyed what I've read so far, but would like some direction/some folks to read with.
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Nov 23, 2017 00:45
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Song of Myself
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Nov 23, 2017 01:56
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CestMoi posted:Song of Myself Sounds good, that's on my TBR list.
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Nov 23, 2017 04:50
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ulvir posted:some more poetry would be nice and good Rupi Kaur
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Nov 23, 2017 15:57
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ulvir posted:some more poetry would be nice and good i agree did i convince everybody to read omeros yet i'd be down for whitman as well or a season in hell hell, i'd even be down for howl or meditations in an emergency or something basic, if it will get people to read some more poems Tree Goat fucked around with this message at 17:02 on Nov 23, 2017 |
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Nov 23, 2017 16:56
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Omeros is insanely good but there I'm not sure the tbb book club thread for people that don't know what a poem is would get a lot out of it
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Nov 24, 2017 01:24
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sir gawain and the green knight the tain
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Nov 24, 2017 01:41
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The tain would be dope for march
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Nov 24, 2017 01:46
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Gawain is the best English language narrative poem so yeah that one
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Nov 24, 2017 01:51
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Tree Goat posted:sir gawain and the green knight The Tain is insanely badass
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Nov 24, 2017 03:45
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CestMoi posted:Gawain is the best English language narrative poem so yeah that one I was going to put up a poll but after consideration unless there's a storm of protest I think this is the route I'm going to go for next month's BOTM. I have a few different editions (Tolkien's ME critical edition, children's illustrated edition, etc.) so it'll give me an excuse to do some effortposting, and it's christmas themed so seasonally appropriate, and it will satisfy the poem-thirsty.
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Nov 28, 2017 04:02
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Mel Mudkiper posted:What I also like about the ending is that it explicitly denies resolution. I can’t say I really liked this book at all, but I do think this was a strong point in its favor. This book could have leaned into a half hearted redemption attempt but it didn’t, which would I think have ruined it for people who did like the rest. And for me it managed to nail this part in a way I didn’t think it did for much else. Anyway, even though it’s December I wanted to say something nice about I book I didn’t like.
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Dec 7, 2017 13:42
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