|
So we all know that Houston did a very successful impersonation of "Atlantis" in preparation for Halloween this year. And being the Oil-rich town that it is, we are seeing an _ocean_ of interesting cars come up on copart. Now, I don't know much about flood-damaged cars. Other than the standard "its bad" and "stay away". But those are rules for other people. I wan't to talk about what might actually be opportunities and what the steps would be to salvage some of these fabulous toys. Having no knowledge in this area, I am interested in hearing other people's experiences. Some facts we know: 1) Almost all of these were damaged by FRESH water, not saltwater, so we have that going for us 2) Very few of these cars were driven in the water because most people that have Ferraris are not dumb enough to drive them in the driving rain. So, we should expect most of the mechanicals to be undamaged. This guy looks pretty good. Unfortunately, we don't see the mark where the water line was. https://www.copart.com/lot/39037127  But, since they clearly sprayed the engine, it means they _needed_ to spray the engine, which means it isn't ideal. Maybe all it needs are the sensors below the water line replaced?  However, at least we know the computer still works, so this could be interesting.  Yikes, this guy was fully submerged. Ignoring all the cosmetic and interior cleaning, it means it will need all the CPUs replaced, All the brake sensors replaced, interior ICE, etc. Seems like this is destined to be a parts car? Anyone think otherwise? https://www.copart.com/lot/39497137  Okay, so what about ones that might actually be worth considering buying? Now we are talking. These older Porsches don't really have much in the way of electronics anyway, so fluids and interior work might be all that is needed. https://www.copart.com/lot/43400817  Not a bad water line. Barely covered the brakes.  Sure the interior might need a lot of work, but nothing a dehumidifier some bleach and vinegar couldn't solve.  Hmmmm are those turbo fender flares on there? What is this car hiding under that new decklid? https://www.copart.com/lot/41297307  Now I am not niave. I know that some of these Ferrari's are going to sell for huge money just for the parts. I would just like to hear experiences with fixing flood cars and what people think the opportunities might be here.
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2017 19:20
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 24, 2024 17:22 |
|
|
The opportunity is to track down green crusties for years. 
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2017 19:23
|
|
|
You dont fix flood cars. The electricals are simply toast and any interior will rot let alone the rust traps internally. Now if you are loving stupid and still want a flood car... 1. Car has to be stripped back to the shell 2. All electricals replaced 3. All interior removables replaced or at the least properly cleaned and dried 4. Interior properly cleaned and dried 5. Mechanicals stripped down and inspected 6. Maybe then your car wont have a lifetime of odd smells and electrial faults... let alone rust in ridiculously nasty places Flood cars do make good race car basis. You need to do most of that poo poo anyway. But as a road car???? LOL good luck
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2017 19:35
|
|
|
Those 911s might not be too awful, actually. Water level on the second looks like it was below the lion's share of the electrical and stuck mostly to the exposed side of the engine. Very few sensors on that side and nothing for a few inches above it. Front trunk might not even have flooded, and for sure the fuse box was spared. Computers-wise the only thing touched would have been the cruise control computer under the passenger seat. I'd get it for a few grand, I bet that engine runs fine. Wait... Biohazard???
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2017 19:35
|
|
|
Dave Inc. posted:Wait... Biohazard??? Sewer water!
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2017 19:40
|
|
|
Annnnd theres the resaon why freshwater floods arent clean.
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2017 19:45
|
|
|
Don't buy a flood car unless you are gonna strip the interior out and track it
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2017 19:45
|
|
|
Yeah, "fresh" water means "not salty". Urban freshwater flood is gonna feature more than a few turds. Also, I can't say I'd trust a line someone's paint-penned onto the side as in any way a reliable indicator of how submerged they actually got. I'm with Cat
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2017 19:45
|
|
|
CAT INTERCEPTOR posted:The electricals are simply toast CAT INTERCEPTOR posted:...let alone the rust traps internally. --- See, I don't get this. I have been working on cars my whole life. Not once have I seen rust "get worse" after the car is dried. What is your basis for this statement? For rust to continue, iron-oxide needs to be in the continuous presence of moisture. If that is all it takes, we would see every car in Seattle rusted to poo poo, but they generally are not*. CAT INTERCEPTOR posted:and any interior will rot let alone the rust traps internally. CAT INTERCEPTOR posted:1. Car has to be stripped back to the shell 2. I think this depends on the type and quantity of electronics. My Miata's motherboard had the standard water issues and ran for quite a while. Slapped a new one on and I was good to go. Again, I am mostly interested in cars with far fewer electronics than you will see in modern cars. 3. Of course not, if that was the case, spilling water on your console would ruin it. As far as the seats go, yes those would need to be cleaned and dried. But again, bagging them with a dehumidifier is not hard to do. Yes, carpets would need to go, new door cards, maybe motors for seats and jammed switches probably. I am not thinking these cars are going to be some kind of 4 hour cleaning job. 4. Of course. 5. I think that depends, cars are designed to handle quite a bit of water splashing up on them, so there is no reason to believe exposure would be a serious mechanical issue. Of course, yes, dropping the oil pan to check and replacing the fluids is a given. Maybe even checking /drying the intake system A lot of what you are saying are the canned responses I see, but don't really seem to come from a place of experience. Tai-Pan fucked around with this message at 19:59 on Nov 8, 2017 |
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2017 19:48
|
|
|
InitialDave posted:Also, I can't say I'd trust a line someone's paint-penned onto the side as in any way a reliable indicator of how submerged they actually got. Seat Safety Switch posted:Sewer water! Yes, probably. But bacteria die. Especially after exposure to hydrogen peroxide and other cleaning agents. That said, I read up on the "biohazard" designation. That is put on to any car with human fluids (blood/gunshot wounds), visible mold, etc. As any parent can tell you, there is poop in most cars.
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2017 19:55
|
|
|
quote:--- Sure, I get that on modern cars. And the Ferraris were really just a joke. I am not talking about buying something like a 2017 M4 that has more computers than a college campus. The same goes for older cars and even MORE so. Tai-Pan posted:
I *HAVE* dealt with flood cars so don't give me that canned response bullshit. Why do you think the rule of thumb with dealing with flood cars has come about? A good hint will be because my experiences are in fact completely typical. What I have described is the reality of flood cars. Interiors WILL rot. Electricals WILL fail. Rust WILL appear in unexpected places. Floodwaters are NOT clean to say the least - silts, chemicals, literal poo poo is absolutly everywhere, why do you think people poo poo their guts out if they drink flood waters? It's not clean and all that crap is now embedded in the upholstery and in every nook and cranny, creating moisture traps to begin with (That's how unexpected rust starts). You either part them out or turn em into race cars.
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2017 20:20
|
|
|
I realize I now need that '80 911 to be my race car so I stop ruining my '82 for track use.
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2017 20:25
|
|
|
There's that guy who bought a flood Tesla model S and a fire one and combined them and claimed it only cost him 5,800 dollars (If he thinks his time is worthless and probably discounting all the minor bits that weren't salvageable from either). I think the amount of effort to combine 2 cars, especially 2 high end ones if you happen to find correctly matching different damage could still be worth it. Not going in with a clear plan and supply of parts is the sure way to spend MSRP or more on a used rebuilt car though. Insurance isn't in the business of giving up cars. Cars get salvaged because it looks like it should cost more to repair than the cost of buying a replacement. Insurance companies aren't perfect and if you like working on stuff and want to do it for free it can cover a large part of the cost, but in general you're betting against pros whose entire business is making sure they come out ahead. craig588 fucked around with this message at 20:31 on Nov 8, 2017 |
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2017 20:25
|
|
|
Canned response lol. Yeah I've revived a couple flood cars. You will *never* fix the electrical system that's in the vehicle now. Clean slate. Go find a total and swap the stuff from it. floods get into all the cavities of the unitbody and deposit trash that will not be easy to fun or remove. Mold/poo poo/sewer/biocontaminates? Replace interior. barring that you will need to strip/soak/scrub every single component of the interior. seats, door cards, dashboards will have to be broken down into its base components and scrubbed and or replaced one by one. automatic clutches will be destroyed if they are water contaminated. babbitt bearings do not like water ingress either. want more proof? VW harness coolant migration. You will not turn a profit if you count your own labor. You might turn a profit if you part these out. some user here had some shitbox lambo that fried a pcm from a carwash. Read: I used to own/run a britshit shop and have cobbled a few back onto the roads that were up to the windscreen in water. both fresh and sea. Even with a shop rate of 125/hr it wasn't really worth it.
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2017 20:41
|
|
|
Can you please contribute instead of yelling at clouds for once?!?! GEEZ MAN! How!?! HOW?!?! I'm not doubting the veracity of your claims, but you've done nothing to contribute other than spout the "canned response." Examples include: Wiring harness failure due to complications of conducting moisture through the insulating sheath? (I'm imagining something similar to the VW coolant brake lights scenario or worse?) Alternator because "LOL, electricity and water," not to mention associated "sealed" bearings throughout many of those rotating assemblies? It's a legitimately interesting topic that I haven't seen a ton of actual discussion on. I'm not doing anything about it because I don't have time, or money. But you say you've done it, and someone's asking. Please educate me! cursedshitbox posted:Canned response lol. I love you CSB. You actually called out some things I was thinking about.
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2017 21:15
|
|
|
craig588 posted:Insurance isn't in the business of giving up cars. Cars get salvaged because it looks like it should cost more to repair than the cost of buying a replacement. Actually, I talked to a close friend who was a former adjuster and dealt with this when there was flooding in Corpus Christi a while back. Again, getting off the topic of modern, computer-laden, cars (which were just posted as a joke), the reason flood cars, even ones the run and drive are totaled isn't because they cannot be fixed, its because of future liabilities. They don't want every car owner to claim their wheel bearing failed 100,000 miles later or that their child-stained carpet, or lung cancer, was a result of the flooding, to haunt them forever. This is one of the reasons I posted this thread. There is actually a poo poo-ton of misinformation.
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2017 21:31
|
|
|
cursedshitbox posted:You will *never* fix the electrical system that's in the vehicle now. Clean slate. Go find a total and swap the stuff from it. cursedshitbox posted:Mold/poo poo/sewer/biocontaminates? Replace interior. barring that you will need to strip/soak/scrub every single component of the interior. seats, door cards, dashboards will have to be cursedshitbox posted:You will not turn a profit if you count your own labor. You might turn a profit if you part these out. I would assume, even if you got it 100% perfect, that you would lose 50% of the expected value due to the salvage title. Hell, I would probably rip the seats out and throw some knockoff recaros and whatever chinese junk interior components I could find. Tai-Pan fucked around with this message at 21:48 on Nov 8, 2017 |
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2017 21:45
|
|
|
Beverly Cleavage posted:Can you please contribute instead of yelling at clouds for once?!?! GEEZ MAN! Because that canned response is exactly what happens? WTF 1. Electrical connectors are great water traps. Once you fill a connector with water, it is not only hard to get rid of it but will set up shorts and electrical wire rot. Water will also get deep in the insulating sheath and begin rot deep in the wires, promoting short circuits with high likelihood components losing energy or being zapped by arcs... or even set up electrical fires. ECU's never recover from being dunked - again circuit rot is set up, water gets trapped in unexpected areas etc etc. Thence an electrical harness and it's ECU's MUST be replaced. Also unless the battery was disconnected, shorts will almost certain to have occured 2. Interiors are great water traps. Also flood water contaminants will be in said traps and go deep into the interior trim, making it very hard to clean properly. Bacteria and mould will start to grow, with the contaminants just feeding that growth. A deep clean is likely to NOT be able to remove all the bacteria and mould, nor remove it's feed source. Underlays are especially great water traps and will promote rust because they will never fully dry out - underlays and sound deadeners must be removed and replaced as they are next to impossible to fully recover. Flood water are also great at permanent cosmetic damage, given the contaminants it will have in it. 3. Silt and other crap get into places that are not properly rust protected and are again, water and mould traps. A car that has been left in flood waters will have water through it's ventilation system which again will have traps for silt everywhere. Contaminated water and silt will be in all sorts of unexpected places that is very very hard to clean out in the bodyshell. Other components like diffs and gearboxes also get contaminated with water and silt - again, complete teardown and clean is required, what you presume is a sealed system isn't and things like bearing will need replacement as grit will be in there and will dramatically shorten service life Thence, you MUST replace the electricals, the interior is also likewise will require all plastics to be properly cleaned and anything else thrown out, the bodyshell will need to be extensivly cleaned... and the mechanicals at the least torn down for a complete clean CAT INTERCEPTOR fucked around with this message at 21:52 on Nov 8, 2017 |
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2017 21:48
|
|
|
CAT INTERCEPTOR posted:1. Electrical connectors are great water traps. Once you fill a connector with water, it is not only hard to get rid of it but will set up shorts and electrical wire rot. Water will also get deep in the insulating sheath and begin rot deep in the wires, promoting short circuits with high likelihood components losing energy or being zapped by arcs... or even set up electrical fires. ECU's never recover from being dunked - again circuit rot is set up, water gets trapped in unexpected areas etc etc. Thence an electrical harness and it's ECU's MUST be replaced. Also unless the battery was disconnected, shorts will almost certain to have occured So now we are actually getting into my area of expertise. I have spent years working on industrial computers that sit in some of the nastiest places on earth (offshore drilling rigs, high humidity factories, KFC kitchens...) What you are saying isn't necessarily true. "Water will also get deep in the insulating sheath and begin rot deep in the wires" --- No. At least not for any copper wiring from the last 50 years made with petroleum sheathing. Example: motor connectors/contacts and wiring for sub-surface (water) pumps on off shore rigs are rarely even bothered to be covered, let alone sealed. They don't have water penetration problems. "high likelihood components losing energy" --- False. Corrosion along the outside of a wire does not increase the resistance of the wire. Only at its connection points, which likely won't have contact with the water. Thos contacts points should be cleaned though, but water evaporates and whatever sediment is left isn't likely to increase resistance significantly. "or even set up electrical fires. " --- True, this is possible, shorts could cause fires. And this is a risk you would run, but you would have to be pretty loving stupid not to disconnect everything and dry it out as much as possible. " electrical harness and it's ECU's " --- Sure, thats a given. "Also flood water contaminants will be in said traps and go deep into the interior trim, making it very hard to clean properly." -- Meh. These will never be show cars. "Bacteria and mould will start to grow, with the contaminants just feeding that growth." -- Again, meh. In high school, my friend couldn't afford to replace the top on his '69 firebird. So he just let it get rained on for years. It wasn't a big deal as far as I could tell. "underlays and sound deadeners must be removed and replaced as they are next to impossible to fully recover." -- Sure, of course. "Flood water are also great at permanent cosmetic damage" --- Again, possible, but not a given and who cares, its a beater. Or plastidip. "given the contaminants it will have in it."" --- I think you guys are really overstating the biohazard risk here. If someone shits in your car floor, and you never clean it, its not going to kill you. Even the infamous "black mold" has very little science around the risks. All of the mytoxicns (the ones that are actually dangerious) require fruit, basically. Tai-Pan fucked around with this message at 22:22 on Nov 8, 2017 |
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2017 22:06
|
|
|
Tai-Pan posted:So now we are actually getting into my area of expertise. I have spent years working on industrial computers that sit in some of the nastiest places on earth (offshore drilling rigs, high humidity factories, KFC kitchens...) There's plenty of places for water to ingress at every connector where the insulation sheath is ineffective ... and thence the fact is that water DOES ingress into electrical cables on a submerged car. The longer the car is submerged, the longer water has to permeate from the point the insulation stops at the plug / connector. Almost no interior connector is designed to withstand liquid contamination and thence industrial design requirements are not relevant in this.
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2017 22:27
|
|
|
OP I think instead of a flood car you should go buy a Black Mazda Miata, shown here high and dry and not up to it's mirrors in shitwater:
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2017 22:59
|
|
|
OP by any chance are you an engineering student or recently out of engineering school?
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2017 23:20
|
|
|
Also you are correct in all of your thinking and you should definitely buy a flood car and post a thread post haste.
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2017 23:23
|
|
|
At the prices the flood cars go for, they are awfully tempting for projects, especially engine swaps. You know the history from the start, plan on a full tear down, plan on nothing soft or electric-y working right and anything from there is a pleasant surprise. If I had space, I'd be looking really hard at something recently trying to swim.
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2017 23:26
|
|
EVERYWHERE 
|
CAT INTERCEPTOR posted:There's plenty of places for water to ingress at every connector where the insulation sheath is ineffective ... and thence the fact is that water DOES ingress into electrical cables on a submerged car. The longer the car is submerged, the longer water has to permeate from the point the insulation stops at the plug / connector. Almost no interior connector is designed to withstand liquid contamination and thence industrial design requirements are not relevant in this. What are you talking about? There is no negative consequence to having water get into a cable itself. Also, did you piss off a mod? Why do you keep misusing "thence"?
|
|
#
?
Nov 9, 2017 00:30
|
|
|
Seminal Flu posted:At the prices the flood cars go for, they are awfully tempting for projects, especially engine swaps. You know the history from the start, plan on a full tear down, plan on nothing soft or electric-y working right and anything from there is a pleasant surprise. This is more of my thinking.
|
|
#
?
Nov 9, 2017 00:31
|
|
|
Tai-Pan posted:What are you talking about? There is no negative consequence to having water get into a cable itself. Your right, there is no consequence of water hitting automotive wire. Its the poo poo thats in the water that causes problems after it mixes with oxygen. And I am really sorry you believe automotive harness connectors are waterproof and that a “freshwater” flood is really like clean deionized water. I can tell you one thing, beware of the title. That first Ferrari has a certificate of destruction. That means its not ever supposed to be used on the road again, IE non rebuildable. You can wash a certificate of destruction through certain states (KY) but thats kinda illegal. The Porsches with a plain salvage title you should be able to register again after an inspection.
|
|
#
?
Nov 9, 2017 00:45
|
|
|
Tai-Pan posted:What are you talking about? There is no negative consequence to having water get into a cable itself. LOLWUT you cant be serious, no consequences for flood water getting into cables? Adiabatic posted:Also you are correct in all of your thinking and you should definitely buy a flood car and post a thread post haste.
|
|
#
?
Nov 9, 2017 00:58
|
|
|
I want that second 911 as a track car, I'm sure it would be the death of me.
|
|
#
?
Nov 9, 2017 00:59
|
|
|
Tai-Pan posted:So now we are actually getting into my area of expertise. I have spent years working on industrial computers that sit in some of the nastiest places on earth (offshore drilling rigs, high humidity factories, KFC kitchens...) I can only loving wish automotive manufacturers used marine grade wiring in cars instead of the cheapest shittiest trash that will last 10 years at the very best, or in some cases, degrade into dust around the day the warranty expires.
|
|
#
?
Nov 9, 2017 01:00
|
|
|
Tai-Pan posted:What are you talking about? There is no negative consequence to having water get into a cable itself. lmfaooo your mind is clearly already made up here so just go and buy a flood car since you know so goddamned much about them. Please post a thread when you do though.
|
|
#
?
Nov 9, 2017 01:01
|
|
|
Tai-Pan posted:What are you talking about? There is no negative consequence to having water get into a cable itself. Yes OP, you should totally buy a flood car, it'll go exactly as you're planning it to.
|
|
#
?
Nov 9, 2017 01:02
|
|
|
Adiabatic posted:Also you are correct in all of your thinking and you should definitely buy a flood car and post a thread post haste. Honestly I'm curious to see how this one turns out.
|
|
#
?
Nov 9, 2017 01:33
|
|
|
Adiabatic posted:Also you are correct in all of your thinking and you should definitely buy a flood car and post a thread post haste. I remember the last flood car project thread went super duper well. 
|
|
#
?
Nov 9, 2017 01:33
|
|
|
I'd probably go for those 911s, personally, so long as the water line was below the exhaust ports. But they're so simple (electrically) that you can replace the entire harness in a week. It'll be harder to track down interior replacement parts than anything else. They would make great track rats too.craig588 posted:There's that guy who bought a flood Tesla model S and a fire one and combined them and claimed it only cost him 5,800 dollars Don't forget, that's his NET cost. Gross was much, much higher, but he recouped most of the cost by selling off parts he didn't use/couldn't use. Tai-Pan posted:"Water will also get deep in the insulating sheath and begin rot deep in the wires" Tell that to VW.
|
|
#
?
Nov 9, 2017 02:10
|
|
|
Everyone who keeps saying the 911s are okay needs to stop because you're going to invite more competition to my bidding. Shut up already! (No not really, I have too many cars already someone buy my 944)
|
|
#
?
Nov 9, 2017 02:19
|
|
|
I thought about getting a flooded Wrangler off Copart just a few weeks ago, was looking through all the Houston Jeeps and some here in Florida. It's a gamble. Is there a chance you could get one that doesn't need much work and didn't get all that effected by water? Sure I guess. But the odds of getting one that has the typical issues are way higher. I was looking fully expecting I'd have a lot work to do, then after some pondering figured I'd rather spend my time doing something else and just buy a non flooded Wrangler to begin with saving me the inevitable headaches.
|
|
#
?
Nov 9, 2017 02:24
|
|
|
I am sure there are thousands of used cars that were flood cars especially older ones that were not insured and never got car faxed. I just stay away from ones that were titled in flooded areas and all of a sudden the guy that owned it for 20 years sells it 4 months after a major flood event.
|
|
#
?
Nov 9, 2017 02:24
|
|
|
CAT INTERCEPTOR posted:LOLWUT you cant be serious, no consequences for flood water getting into cables? Okay, lets assume I am as stupid as you think I am. Lets also assume I have not been working with subcomponents and wiring for the last 2 decades. Can you explain to me where you think the issue would arise if you submerge a piece of standard 15gau wire in freshwater for 2 days would be?
|
|
#
?
Nov 9, 2017 02:46
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 24, 2024 17:22 |
|
|
cursedshitbox posted:I can only loving wish automotive manufacturers used marine grade wiring in cars instead of the cheapest shittiest trash that will last 10 years at the very best, or in some cases, degrade into dust around the day the warranty expires. I won't buy a wiring-era Mercedes regardless of flood damage. Now THAT is stupid idea.
|
|
#
?
Nov 9, 2017 02:51
|
|