|
Bicyclops posted:I'm honestly onboard for it, his role in the new Matrix movie is extremely Doctor Who villain I hated it, tbh. He only ever seems to play varying degrees of the same character in everything I’ve seen him in. He also just seems like a gigantic prick overall.
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2022 22:03
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 19, 2024 16:31 |
|
|
Big Mean Jerk posted:I hated it, tbh. He only ever seems to play varying degrees of the same character in everything I’ve seen him in. He certainly played an absolute rear end in a top hat and monster on How I Met Your Mother, but I like him personally a lot. I agree that he tends to play "smarmy" most of the time, but he plays it well, so it makes sense people keep casting him for it.
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2022 22:20
|
|
|
if doctor who can make an episode where the bastard who played bustifer jones after years of terrorizing american late nights seem charming and sympathetic, I think they can get even big mean jerk to enjoy just this one NPH performance
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2022 22:25
|
|
|
The_Doctor posted:I’m assuming the Toymaker? I'm thinking so too, if only because his outfit is very Geppetto from Disney's Pinocchio, which'd be a fine replacement for the Michael Gough costume.
|
|
#
?
Jun 14, 2022 07:16
|
|
|
You cannot bring back the Toymaker. "Celestial" was literally used as a synonym for "oriental". The character is right up there with all the other racist dog poo poo like Weng Chiang and that mute black strongman from the bad old days.
|
|
#
?
Jun 14, 2022 07:24
|
|
|
DoctorWhat posted:You cannot bring back the Toymaker. "Celestial" was literally used as a synonym for "oriental". The character is right up there with all the other racist dog poo poo like Weng Chiang and that mute black strongman from the bad old days. You *shouldn't* bring back the Toymaker. That doesn't mean they won't.
|
|
#
?
Jun 14, 2022 11:17
|
|
|
What exactly is wrong with him if you just change his clothes and I guess stop saying the word nobody would recognise as a racial term?
|
|
#
?
Jun 14, 2022 11:23
|
|
|
Dabir posted:What exactly is wrong with him if you just change his clothes and I guess stop saying the word nobody would recognise as a racial term? Nothing, and BF have had some success with doing this in the past. They also stupidly recreated the costume on the cover of another release, complete with white dude photoshopped into it. Whoops.
|
|
#
?
Jun 14, 2022 12:16
|
|
|
I think you can uncouple the concept of an all-powerful person obsessed with games and toys from the problematic "celestial" term and imagery.
|
|
#
?
Jun 14, 2022 14:00
|
|
|
DoctorWhat posted:You cannot bring back the Toymaker. "Celestial" was literally used as a synonym for "oriental". The character is right up there with all the other racist dog poo poo like Weng Chiang and that mute black strongman from the bad old days. Being completely unfamiliar with the character, and only knowing the term "Celestial" from its Marvel Comics context, what makes the character problematic, and how was the term used as a synonym for that?
|
|
#
?
Jun 14, 2022 14:10
|
|
|
Bicyclops posted:I think you can uncouple the concept of an all-powerful person obsessed with games and toys from the problematic "celestial" term and imagery. I think if you just take the costume away the word isn't even a problem. He's a godlike being in space, he's of the heavens. Celestial, if you like.
|
|
#
?
Jun 14, 2022 14:15
|
|
|
thrawn527 posted:Being completely unfamiliar with the character, and only knowing the term "Celestial" from its Marvel Comics context, what makes the character problematic, and how was the term used as a synonym for that? I don't understand the question, really. "How was the term used as a synonym for Chinese"? By using it as a synonym for "Chinese" ("The Celestial Empire" being an archaic term for China). What makes the character problematic? He's a white guy in yellowface.
|
|
#
?
Jun 14, 2022 14:24
|
|
|
MrL_JaKiri posted:I don't understand the question, really. "How was the term used as a synonym for Chinese"? By using it as a synonym for "Chinese" ("The Celestial Empire" being an archaic term for China). What makes the character problematic? He's a white guy in yellowface. I didn't know "The Celestial Empire" is an archaic term for China, so that's an answer right there. Like I said, I've only ever heard it in the context of Marvel Comics, and it does sound rather cosmic, so I always associated it with "of the stars" due to that. And, having never seen an episode with the character, as I said, i didn't know he was a white guy in yellowface. edit: Googling for 5 seconds, I see now that yeah, it's bad. Yikes. My mistake. That term had completely gotten passed me, somehow. thrawn527 fucked around with this message at 14:39 on Jun 14, 2022 |
|
#
?
Jun 14, 2022 14:28
|
|
|
It's pretty hard to tell given that he's only ever appeared in black and white. Did they even put actual makeup on him?
|
|
#
?
Jun 14, 2022 14:32
|
|
|
Dabir posted:It's pretty hard to tell given that he's only ever appeared in black and white. Did they even put actual makeup on him? I've not found anything about the make-up from that period, and it doesn't seem like the kind of thing records were kept of. There's been back and forth about it for a while -- and also whether Kafka, from Tomb of the Cybermen has been made up to look more Middle Eastern or if she's just very sweaty and dirty -- but I think it's pretty obvious what the intention is from the clothing. https://tardis.fandom.com/wiki/Celestial_Toymaker TARDIS wiki, predictably, is undecided on what the topic should be named. lol. What a poo poo site.
|
|
#
?
Jun 14, 2022 15:14
|
|
|
thrawn527 posted:I didn't know "The Celestial Empire" is an archaic term for China, so that's an answer right there. Like I said, I've only ever heard it in the context of Marvel Comics, and it does sound rather cosmic, so I always associated it with "of the stars" due to that. And, having never seen an episode with the character, as I said, i didn't know he was a white guy in yellowface. Don't feel bad, I only knew about the term from Deadwood.
|
|
#
?
Jun 14, 2022 16:50
|
|
|
Dabir posted:I think if you just take the costume away the word isn't even a problem. He's a godlike being in space, he's of the heavens. Celestial, if you like. Eh. Might as well just toss the term, given all the baggage. I think it sounds more menacing if he's just "the Toymaker" anyway.
|
|
#
?
Jun 14, 2022 17:21
|
|
|
Bicyclops posted:Eh. Might as well just toss the term, given all the baggage. I think it sounds more menacing if he's just "the Toymaker" anyway. There's a certain Batman villain who might object to that 
|
|
#
?
Jun 14, 2022 18:26
|
|
|
Sydney Bottocks posted:There's a certain Batman villain who might object to that lol, I forgot about him. I read every Batman comic from like 1987 to 2004 and he was in... maybe two arcs? I think one of them with the boy general character.
|
|
#
?
Jun 14, 2022 18:42
|
|
|
Toss the character. The episode he's from is about playing Towers of Hanoi badly and reciting racist nursery rhymes
|
|
#
?
Jun 14, 2022 18:52
|
|
|
I wonder how old or out of date a usage has to get before it's no longer considered offensive.
|
|
#
?
Jun 14, 2022 19:26
|
|
|
Darth Brooks posted:I wonder how old or out of date a usage has to get before it's no longer considered offensive. I mean, nobody cares if you want to use the term "celestial" to refer to a heavenly beast in Dungeons and Dragons or whatever, the context for this was MrL_JaKiri posted:I don't understand the question, really. "How was the term used as a synonym for Chinese"? By using it as a synonym for "Chinese" ("The Celestial Empire" being an archaic term for China). What makes the character problematic? He's a white guy in yellowface.
|
|
#
?
Jun 14, 2022 19:29
|
|
|
To clear up a disconnect I think people are having If today, in 2022, any media property in the world other than Doctor Who wanted to introduce a brand new character called the Celestial Toymaker, they could without anyone giving a poo poo. Wouldn't matter. Non issue. If Doctor Who wanted to, they could introduce the Celestial Emperor, king of space or something, and people would be inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt. The Celestial Toymaker IN Doctor Who just means that they're bringing back an old racist thing they did and reminding everyone that they did a racist thing once. It's tied hand in hand with racism. You could have any number of combinations of meaning to the term Celestial Toymaker- you could have it be an actual Chinese toy maker from the Celestial Empire era, you could have it be a cosmic toymaker, you could do ANY number of things and it wouldn't be racist. The name Celestial Toymaker is not racist, Celestial is not racist. It is not a slur. But specifically and uniquely in Doctor Who it is, because they tied it to a white guy dressed up as a chinese caricature who spouted racist bullshit. It's like trying to make a book about HP Lovecraft's cat. It doesn't super matter *what* you do with that premise, sure in any other context you could make it not racist, but this specific thing IS tied to racism. EDIT: But I also want to add Not everyone is or should be inclined to be against this. You don't have to care that they're making a racist thing not racist anymore and trying to modernize it so that it's not racist. But this is why people DO care. If you can put aside that it is a racist thing that's trying to scrub clean that history and be something fresh, that's your call. Others will not. That's where the ultimate argument comes down to and it's pretty subjective. Burkion fucked around with this message at 19:45 on Jun 14, 2022 |
|
#
?
Jun 14, 2022 19:43
|
|
|
Yeah, I think at the end of the day, I like the idea of a character in Doctor Who that's obsessed with toys and games, has cosmic powers, forces people to play his games and cheats at them. It's a premise that could have been mined for a lot of material for a recurring villain. But creating a totally new character called the Gamemaster or whatever is fine. I think people who are aware of the old character will still recognize the trappings, but DoctorWhat is right that his original story really embraces the slur.
|
|
#
?
Jun 14, 2022 19:58
|
|
|
I have bad news for you. https://twitter.com/mountford_14/status/1536767686725799937
|
|
#
?
Jun 14, 2022 21:06
|
|
|
learning new stuff is cool except when the new stuff is some old-rear end racism that I wouldn't even accidentally perpetuate but now dead racists get one more kb of brain storage
|
|
#
?
Jun 14, 2022 21:14
|
|
|
Burkion posted:To clear up a disconnect I think people are having This is a great way of putting it. Thanks.
|
|
#
?
Jun 14, 2022 21:54
|
|
|
I would add, "celestial" can absolutely still be a slur. If someone was calling Chinese people "celestials" in 2022, it might be a weirdly archaic slur, but it would be unambiguously still be a hateful thing to say, even if it would mostly be met by confusion. But yeah, calling something that isn't a Chinese person celestial isn't going to be an issue these days, and if Doctor Who hadn't used it in a racist way it probably would have been fine. Just calling the character The Toymaker and moving on seems like it should be fine for Doctor Who.
|
|
#
?
Jun 14, 2022 22:14
|
|
|
I'm Chinese and if someone called me a celestial online I think it would make me blush.
|
|
#
?
Jun 14, 2022 23:04
|
|
|
The_Doctor posted:I have bad news for you. Please please please give me Sly strolling out of an exploding circus tent again
|
|
#
?
Jun 15, 2022 00:21
|
|
|
AndyElusive posted:I'm Chinese and if someone called me a celestial online I think it would make me blush. You celestial online, you. I'll see myself out.
|
|
#
?
Jun 15, 2022 00:52
|
|
|
https://twitter.com/TomWrenPhoto/status/1537012256382361600?s=20&t=oh4IwvSIuvTnniOIuMSFeA
|
|
#
?
Jun 15, 2022 15:12
|
|
|
https://twitter.com/bbcrb/status/1537453791326441475?s=20&t=_3g4uE3ioxwk5Ob08SQkWA Listen to that dialogue 
|
|
#
?
Jun 16, 2022 21:00
|
|
|
Confusedslight posted:https://twitter.com/bbcrb/status/1537453791326441475?s=20&t=_3g4uE3ioxwk5Ob08SQkWA Can't understand it. Any help?
|
|
#
?
Jun 16, 2022 21:21
|
|
|
Donna: What about Mel? Doctor: she's brilliant isn't she? Was just so nice to hear their voices as there characters again 
|
|
#
?
Jun 17, 2022 00:00
|
|
|
Maybe something. Maybe nothing. https://twitter.com/memoriesdw/status/1538146875819405314?s=20&t=Q9U639Gqdt3JFBJ5crZvZA
|
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2022 19:28
|
|
|
His hair always looks like that though. It did in Morbius.
|
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2022 19:34
|
|
|
So probably an MCU crossover starting early?
|
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2022 19:45
|
|
|
The_Doctor posted:His hair always looks like that though. It did in Morbius. DOCTOR michael morbius
|
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2022 19:47
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 19, 2024 16:31 |
|
|
Yeah, that’s reaching. Whether or not he shows up, this hair has nothing to do with it.
|
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2022 20:17
|
|