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Sydney Bottocks
Oct 15, 2004

Eh.


Astroman posted:

Do you have zero confidence that white writers and actors can show any culture but their own without being devastatingly racist?

Yeah, pretty much. Speaking as a white dude, we haven't exactly had a great track record on either side of the Atlantic when it comes to that.

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Astroman
Apr 8, 2001


Oh what a surprise, Bicyclops tells me my opinion is Objectively Wrong.

Sydney Bottocks posted:

Yeah, pretty much. Speaking as a white dude, we haven't exactly had a great track record on either side of the Atlantic when it comes to that.

Do you feel only a POC or a person from a certain nation can write for that group? Can people only write for their ancestors? Are we at a point where as long as Chibnall is showrunner the show can only do white, British history and space stuff?


MrL_JaKiri posted:

You're doing a lot of straw manning recently over people being concerned about whether a Very White BBC programme can handle issues of historical racism with class and poise.

The reasons people are concerned are pretty obvious - a poor history of (British) television (and, recently, Doctor Who in particular) with racial issues either historical or contemporary; the rise of far right views being acceptable to present in a public forum; Chibnall's personal lack of nuance when writing for the Doctor Who universe.

Furthermore, being unoptimistic is a very very different statement to "I will boycott it forever if Doctor Who does anything racist" - especially because (as intimated above) anyone who boycotted the show forever if it was racist wouldn't still be watching it after The Zygon Inversion.

Please try to approach this issue with a bit of nuance, rather than flying off the handle like an entitled child. In addition, I'll note that your sniping about this has also appeared in the main thread - would it hurt you to keep your toys in the spoiler thread pram, rather than talking obliquely about spoilers in the non-spoiler thread?

Nuance? I'm not the one getting all and worked up with Dread over a hypothetical racist episode that hasn't occurred yet. The reason I say people will BOYCOTT WHO FOREVER is I assume they are worried that if the show is deemed horribly racist they'll have to stop watching. And your smug backseat modding note has been noted and you can be sure I'll take it under advisement with all the due weight it deserves.

pgroce
Oct 24, 2002


Astroman posted:

Nuance? I'm not the one getting all and worked up with Dread over a hypothetical racist episode that hasn't occurred yet. The reason I say people will BOYCOTT WHO FOREVER is I assume they are worried that if the show is deemed horribly racist they'll have to stop watching. And your smug backseat modding note has been noted and you can be sure I'll take it under advisement with all the due weight it deserves.

I guess I need to point out to the only person here who didn't get it that the words "I am filled with dread" were filled with rhetorical hyperbole.

Filled! To the literal edge! Madness!

I'm sorry you don't understand how people talk on the internet in 2018, OP.

Gaz-L
Jan 28, 2009


Astroman posted:

Do you feel only a POC or a person from a certain nation can write for that group? Can people only write for their ancestors? Are we at a point where as long as Chibnall is showrunner the show can only do white, British history and space stuff?

Let's reverse this: What about Chibnall's track record makes you confident that he CAN handle the kind of topics that concern has been raised about, and do so without a Peter Harness-esque tin ear?

Astroman
Apr 8, 2001


Gaz-L posted:

Let's reverse this: What about Chibnall's track record makes you confident that he CAN handle the kind of topics that concern has been raised about, and do so without a Peter Harness-esque tin ear?

Broadchurch?

And my first and largest concern is that he can handle Doctor Who period. There's a lot he can gently caress up on the series besides just "insensitive depictions of non-British historical cultures."

Guy A. Person
May 23, 2003



Astroman posted:

Broadchurch?

And my first and largest concern is that he can handle Doctor Who period. There's a lot he can gently caress up on the series besides just "insensitive depictions of non-British historical cultures."

Well so you admit that there's a lot he can gently caress up and it had you concerned, but just keep in mind that in the latter situation: 1) loving up can cause harm to a historically marginalized group and 2) handling that type of story is hard for even the most talented of writers.

Basically it's worse in every way if he fucks up the Rosa Parks thing than if he does the Cybermen wrong or something stupid.

Sydney Bottocks
Oct 15, 2004

Eh.


Astroman posted:

Do you feel only a POC or a person from a certain nation can write for that group? Can people only write for their ancestors? Are we at a point where as long as Chibnall is showrunner the show can only do white, British history and space stuff?

You seem awfully defensive about this.

Senor Tron
May 25, 2006

send em back to Islamistan or some shit

Going back to the RTD era, Human Nature/Family of Blood does demonstrate the show can do a good job of addressing racial realities of real world history.

At the same time though the way they treated Nixon and Churchill gives a little concern.

I'm hoping for an episode where the Rosa Parks events occur mainly in the background. Address the fact it's happening, but if the new Doctor is being treated as a potential onboarding point for new viewers use it to also introduce the fixed point concept and why The Doctor doesn't intervene in the majority of awful poo poo that has happened in human history.

The_Doctor
Mar 29, 2007

"The entire history of this incarnation is one of temporal orbits, retcons, paradoxes, parallel time lines, reiterations, and divergences. How anyone can make head or tail of all this chaos, I don't know."


Guy A. Person posted:

Basically it's worse in every way if he fucks up the Rosa Parks thing than if he does the Cybermen wrong or something stupid.

Well he’s already done that one in the worst possible way, so honestly anything from that is up.

Astroman
Apr 8, 2001


Sydney Bottocks posted:

You seem awfully defensive about this.

I just think it's crazy that for some (I qualify this before Bicyclops and MrL_JaKiri indignantly post that THEY never said this) there is becoming an unwritten rule that people can only write for people of the same gender, sexuality, race or historical nationality as themselves without being dogpiled on as problematic. And I'm not the only one:

https://screenrant.com/black-panthe...g-people-color/

Having people write from their own experience is great. It shouldn't mean they can only write for that without being suspect.

Bicyclops
Aug 27, 2004

You don't know how lucky you are you're snakes.


Astrodude, your weird obsession with this issue has no bearing on the current complaint, which is that writing space aliens, in particular, white British ones, into the Civil Rights era is a bad idea. Whatever the Doctor does to save the day will appear either embarrassingly silly or condescending (in a way which erases the accomplishments of important historical figures) against the backdrop. The reason you anticipate that people will say "I didn't actually say that" is because you never actually engage with what people are saying when this kind of thing comes up.

I searched a couple of people's posts, and you are, I am fairly certain, the first person to use the word "racist" to describe the episode (I use the word to describe the supporters of segregation, and facetiously to apply it to the Zygons instead of the real human people; I'm the only one). You are so horribly incapable of having an original thought on this topic that you continuously put words in people's mouths so that you can have the same circular argument. You don't like listening, so you argue against a shrill, abstract phantom of your own creation.

If you would like to discuss why you think it could be brilliant to insert a time traveling space wizard and a set of bad guy aliens who are a variation on the pod people trope into one of America's flashbulb memories with regard to its original sin, feel free to discuss that, instead of embarking on your usual crusade against the grand artistic censorship of people of privilege writing for the oppressed.

2house2fly
Nov 14, 2012

You did a super job wrapping things up! And I'm not just saying that because I have to!

Well, for one it could be educational

Guy A. Person
May 23, 2003



Holy smokes, there's also a difference between "writ(ing) for people of the same gender, sexuality, race or historical nationality" and handling a historically sensitive incident in a show where almost every episode deals with evil aliens being inserted into things.

Bicyclops
Aug 27, 2004

You don't know how lucky you are you're snakes.


Guy A. Person posted:

Holy smokes, there's also a difference between "writ(ing) for people of the same gender, sexuality, race or historical nationality" and handling a historically sensitive incident in a show where almost every episode deals with evil aliens being inserted into things.

Like the former thing is also a discussion, but I refused to be dragged there again by loving Astroman, who for some reason decides that's what we're arguing about every time anyone discusses flaws that the show has with regards to representation.

2house2fly posted:

Well, for one it could be educational

I mean, we're not exactly in the Hartnell era anymore, here. I know we have a new showrunner, but I still doubt "Learn about history from Doctor Who" is coming back after approximately a 50 year hiatus.

The_Doctor
Mar 29, 2007

"The entire history of this incarnation is one of temporal orbits, retcons, paradoxes, parallel time lines, reiterations, and divergences. How anyone can make head or tail of all this chaos, I don't know."


Bicyclops posted:

I mean, we're not exactly in the Hartnell era anymore, here. I know we have a new showrunner, but I still doubt "Learn about history from Doctor Who" is coming back after approximately a 50 year hiatus.

Welp. Chris Chibnall is “keen to bring the show back to its 1960s roots when Sydney Newman intended it to be an educational series for children”.

Bicyclops
Aug 27, 2004

You don't know how lucky you are you're snakes.



Huh, that could be interesting, because it will mean that the Doctor's involvement in events is to be dragged into them and try to extract herself and her companions and get back to the TARDIS. It would involve not shoehorning in the Zygons or other alien threats if they want to pull it off, though, particularly given that they don't have the time that the old serialized format provided for padding. Like, if they want to go that route, they should be purely historicals, I think.

thexerox123
Aug 17, 2007



Bicyclops posted:

Like, if they want to go that route, they should be purely historicals, I think.

You can teach things other than just history.

Bicyclops
Aug 27, 2004

You don't know how lucky you are you're snakes.


thexerox123 posted:

You can teach things other than just history.

Sure, but what are you going to teach by inserting Zygons into a historical setting, exactly? You don't need the alien threats in historicals, and it's why the Hartnell (and early Troughton) era didn't use them. That's not to say that you can never have aliens attack when you have a story involving backward time travel, just that in a "let's learn about this historical period" story, it's a detriment rather than a feature.

The_Doctor
Mar 29, 2007

"The entire history of this incarnation is one of temporal orbits, retcons, paradoxes, parallel time lines, reiterations, and divergences. How anyone can make head or tail of all this chaos, I don't know."


You could do both, in theory. Have the historical event go off as planned completely unaware and unfettered from alien influence, but the Doctor and co having worked around in the background defeating the baddies, completely unbeknownst.

AndyElusive
Jan 7, 2007



I hope Rosa Parks ends up being a Zygon.

MrL_JaKiri
Sep 23, 2003

Ask me about my calm and reasonable opinions on cycling!

I am in no way a zealot about cycling!

Cycling helmets are ABSOLUTE HARAM!


Astroman posted:

Oh what a surprise, Bicyclops tells me my opinion is Objectively Wrong.

Do you feel only a POC or a person from a certain nation can write for that group? Can people only write for their ancestors? Are we at a point where as long as Chibnall is showrunner the show can only do white, British history and space stuff?

Nuance? I'm not the one getting all and worked up with Dread over a hypothetical racist episode that hasn't occurred yet. The reason I say people will BOYCOTT WHO FOREVER is I assume they are worried that if the show is deemed horribly racist they'll have to stop watching. And your smug backseat modding note has been noted and you can be sure I'll take it under advisement with all the due weight it deserves.

Get over yourself, dude

Ms Boods
Mar 19, 2009



I've seen the original documents for the show that Newman and others put together (having spent time in the BBC Written Archive doing research for a couple of publications). One of the things Newman stressed -- which quickly went out the window -- was that the historicals be instances where the Doctor and his companions are observers only, and do not interfer with the course of events in any way. (According to one doc, Newman was horrified by a BBC bod's thoughts that it would be fun for the Doctor to turn out to be Santa or the Tooth Fairy, or that he was instrumental in particular historical events happening, either on Earth or other planets that they visited. The only element of science fiction in this type of story was simply how the Doctor and his companions arrive.).

It's interesting stuff -- stories were meant to fall into three categories: historicals/past, future, and 'sideways'. Only rarely really do the shows go 'sideways' -- be nice to see more of that. (What was meant, I think, were things such as alternate universes or more experimental things.) It was stressed that of the three categories, historicals would be the hardest to write, and the writers were expected to do their homework.

Ms Boods fucked around with this message at Mar 19, 2018 around 17:47

Sydney Bottocks
Oct 15, 2004

Eh.


Astroman posted:

I just think it's crazy that for some (I qualify this before Bicyclops and MrL_JaKiri indignantly post that THEY never said this) there is becoming an unwritten rule that people can only write for people of the same gender, sexuality, race or historical nationality as themselves without being dogpiled on as problematic. And I'm not the only one:

https://screenrant.com/black-panthe...g-people-color/

Having people write from their own experience is great. It shouldn't mean they can only write for that without being suspect.

I don't necessarily disagree with you; but again, I'm pointing out that both the US and UK have a less than stellar record when it comes to TV shows created and run by white people that try to depict non-white cultural backgrounds.

It's certainly possible for someone to write a show or whatever about someone who grew up in a (real-world, not a fictional) culture completely different from their own. But that takes sensitivity, nuance, and (above all) extensive research into what that particular culture is and how it came to be. And you'll have to pardon those of us who are a wee bit skeptical that a 45-minute episode of Doctor Who, written by a white British guy, will have all these things integrated into an episode where Zygons apparently have something to do with what is arguably one of the biggest cultural touchstones in black American history. It's certainly not impossible, sure; but I'm not gonna hold my breath waiting to be surprised, either.

Bicyclops
Aug 27, 2004

You don't know how lucky you are you're snakes.


Ms Boods posted:


It's interesting stuff -- stories were meant to fall into three categories: historicals/past, future, and 'sideways'. Only rarely really do the shows go 'sideways' -- be nice to see more of that. (What was meant, I think, were things such as alternate universes or more experimental things.) It was stressed that of the three categories, historicals would be the hardest to write, and the writers were expected to do their homework.

I guess the early examples of sideways would be Planet of Giants and The Celestial Toymaker, but I can't really think of anything else that applies in the Hartnell era. I guess arguably The Edge of Destruction or the second half of The Ark? They didn't do too many of the sideways ones.

I do think that philosophy is good for historicals. I don't mind the occasional alien threat in the past, but sometimes you just want to Shakespeare without the alien witch magic and with the Doctor accidentally giving the names of all of his plays.

Astroman
Apr 8, 2001


Bicyclops posted:

Astrodude, your weird obsession with this issue has no bearing on the current complaint, which is that writing space aliens, in particular, white British ones, into the Civil Rights era is a bad idea. Whatever the Doctor does to save the day will appear either embarrassingly silly or condescending (in a way which erases the accomplishments of important historical figures) against the backdrop. The reason you anticipate that people will say "I didn't actually say that" is because you never actually engage with what people are saying when this kind of thing comes up.

I searched a couple of people's posts, and you are, I am fairly certain, the first person to use the word "racist" to describe the episode (I use the word to describe the supporters of segregation, and facetiously to apply it to the Zygons instead of the real human people; I'm the only one). You are so horribly incapable of having an original thought on this topic that you continuously put words in people's mouths so that you can have the same circular argument. You don't like listening, so you argue against a shrill, abstract phantom of your own creation.

If you would like to discuss why you think it could be brilliant to insert a time traveling space wizard and a set of bad guy aliens who are a variation on the pod people trope into one of America's flashbulb memories with regard to its original sin, feel free to discuss that, instead of embarking on your usual crusade against the grand artistic censorship of people of privilege writing for the oppressed.

Well you should have searched better, because I was responding to pgroce's post about the India episode.

I also never said I was all for inserting a time traveling space wizard and a set of bad guy aliens who are a variation on the pod people trope into one of America's flashbulb memories with regard to its original sin. I said it's dumb to get hyperbolically filled with dread and worry assuming offense over an episode which hasn't happened yet. See, you put words into my mouth there.


AndyElusive posted:

I hope Rosa Parks ends up being a Zygon.

At this point, so do I, if only for the spectacle of the meltdowns that will occur.

Ms Boods
Mar 19, 2009


Bicyclops posted:

I guess the early examples of sideways would be Planet of Giants and The Celestial Toymaker, but I can't really think of anything else that applies in the Hartnell era. I guess arguably The Edge of Destruction or the second half of The Ark? They didn't do too many of the sideways ones.

I do think that philosophy is good for historicals. I don't mind the occasional alien threat in the past, but sometimes you just want to Shakespeare without the alien witch magic and with the Doctor accidentally giving the names of all of his plays.

When I get a chance, I'll dig out my notes and copies; when the original Pitch of Doom was made (late 1962, but a lot more detailed stuff shows up into 1963), they already had episode synopses plotted out and possible writers. Not every projected episode ended up being written and/or made; some of the writers they contacted were interesting (waaaay back in the earlier stages, before coming up with the Doctor and his companions, they'd thought the show might be an anthology, so they were brainstorming ideas for current sci fi authors whom they might approach, e.g. Poul Anderson and John Wyndam.)

PriorMarcus
Oct 16, 2008

ASK ME ABOUT BEING ALLERGIC TO POSITIVITY


Actually Sideways was the term used to describe a real world concept or idea told via science fiction. The Daleks were specifically a sideways pitch on the Nazi's. This is from the Doctor Who Vault.

Ms Boods
Mar 19, 2009


Right -- back to my home office; the categories on the doc I've got in my files are 'past', 'future' and 'dimensional'

What became the first Daleks serial (originally called 'The Mutants' -- another early doc refers to it as 'Doctor Who and the Robots ) is under the category 'future'

One of the 'dimensionals' is has as its subject 'miniscule' and is in reference to Edge of Destruction. Another one by Malcolm Hulke falls into the dimensional category. Not sure what this one was meant to be -- a number of the stories on this document are for the original pitch meetings, when they were lining up possible authors and story topics)

Dalek serials (at least in this early document) aren't dimensional/sideways.

(Document is from 23 Oct 1963 from the Planning Manager (Forward) Tel.Prog/Planning. 2381/2/3 from the BBC Written Archives.)

Anyway, enough for now -- back to the regularly scheduled discussion

Bicyclops
Aug 27, 2004

You don't know how lucky you are you're snakes.


Ms Boods posted:

Another one by Malcolm Hulke falls into the dimensional category. Not sure what this one was meant to be -- a number of the stories on this document are for the original pitch meetings, when they were lining up possible authors and story topics)


It looks like Malcolm Hulke pitched a script in season 1 for a twin planet of Earth's that was ruled by women (lol, how many unproduced, weird versions of Galaxy 4 are there?). I suppose that could be it, if they were aiming to have the planet show itself in present time, although it still feels kind of futurey. Interesting, either way!

The_Doctor
Mar 29, 2007

"The entire history of this incarnation is one of temporal orbits, retcons, paradoxes, parallel time lines, reiterations, and divergences. How anyone can make head or tail of all this chaos, I don't know."


They’re currently filming in Spain, which is doubling for India.

quote:

Series 11 has been filming in Granada, southern Spain for the past few days. Reports stated that filming specifically took place in La Calahorra near the famous Castillo de La Calahorra. A lot of the architecture in the region was built by the Moors and their designs are not too dissimilar to the architecture of old Islamic era India.

https://twitter.com/GirlyLetters/st...608356331720704

Mameluke
Aug 2, 2013

Girl you know you gotta watch your health


Hell yeah. Props to Chibnall for going out of the "Victorian England, and sometimes the good parts of the US" box.

Bicyclops
Aug 27, 2004

You don't know how lucky you are you're snakes.


Mameluke posted:

and sometimes the good parts of the US

Hey, I'll have you know, we have plenty here besides the White House, the Wild West and New York City. The Doctor could meet Ben Affleck trying very hahd to get out of Boston, for example, or she could tear down confederate statues in the South.

Edward Mass
Sep 14, 2011

"I saw Dallas Keuchel....THERE'S A BEARD!!!!!"


Broken Cake

Is it taking a month per individual episode filming?

Sydney Bottocks
Oct 15, 2004

Eh.


Bicyclops posted:

Hey, I'll have you know, we have plenty here besides the White House, the Wild West and New York City. The Doctor could meet Ben Affleck trying very hahd to get out of Boston, for example, or she could tear down confederate statues in the South.

I'm personally looking forward to the episode where the Doctor has to try and bring peace between two neighboring factions on the verge of all-out war: Michigan State football fans vs. U of M football fans.

Bicyclops
Aug 27, 2004

You don't know how lucky you are you're snakes.


Sydney Bottocks posted:

I'm personally looking forward to the episode where the Doctor has to try and bring peace between two neighboring factions on the verge of all-out war: Michigan State football fans vs. U of M football fans.

I'm looking forward to when Bostonians rightfully side with the Daleks against a much worse enemy, Bucky loving Dent.

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Sad King Billy
Jan 27, 2006

Thats three of ours innit...to one of yours. You know mate I really think we ought to even up the average!

They can bring Ian McNiece back as Churchill for the Indian episode, except he can be a villain.

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