Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us $3,400 per month for bandwidth bills alone, and since we don't believe in shoving popup ads to our registered users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
«2 »
  • Post
  • Reply
Bicyclops
Aug 27, 2004

Hey, Karn, what do you say to console someone who just got Thought Erased? You give up? "Need a hand?"


Well, if that's true, it's certainly ambitious.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Bicyclops
Aug 27, 2004

Hey, Karn, what do you say to console someone who just got Thought Erased? You give up? "Need a hand?"


Fair Bear Maiden posted:

That... doesn't sound very credible to me. But we'll see. I'll probably be proven wrong.

This was my initial thought, but I've always been wrong again I say it, so I've made an effort not to anymore.

Bicyclops
Aug 27, 2004

Hey, Karn, what do you say to console someone who just got Thought Erased? You give up? "Need a hand?"


I actually don't mind the writing, but Bradley just doesn't feel like One. He seems to be trying to play vaguely out of it and upset instead of indignant, self-assured and wiley.

There's a way to deliver "I thought I'd be... younger" that carries One's dignified distaste, and instead the direction feels like they're going for "Hartnell's frustrated confusion as he watches the world leave him behind."

I've always been impressed with Bradley as an actor, but I don't think much of him as an impersonator.

Bicyclops fucked around with this message at Nov 18, 2017 around 05:49

Bicyclops
Aug 27, 2004

Hey, Karn, what do you say to console someone who just got Thought Erased? You give up? "Need a hand?"


Mameluke posted:

I've always wondered a little bit about the Doctor's wardrobe. The Doctor's adhered to thirteen specific men's styles throughout his life. Fairly often it seems like his old outfit's destroyed around the time of his regeneration (4, 10, 12 now, maybe others?). It doesn't make sense that all that clothing was his. Sure there have been dozens of companions throughout his travels, but does that mean the Doctor flies around with a wardrobe full of mostly women's clothing?

Yeah, there is not officially any explanation as to why, but they've been pretty clear that there is just a full wardrobe of era-dependent clothes for both men and women on the TARDIS.

I figure, if you're going to travel throughout time and you come from a gender-fluctuating race and your goal is to blend in, it's a necessary thing, so it doesn't really matter if the Doctor has been stocking up, the TARDIS just adjusts and changes the clothing closets sometimes, or there are just a whooooooole lot of clothes. Whatever the case, there's a department store for every time and place, except all the clothes are free, and I actually sort of wish they'd show it more.

Bicyclops
Aug 27, 2004

Hey, Karn, what do you say to console someone who just got Thought Erased? You give up? "Need a hand?"


The_Doctor posted:

Ok, but why?

Because it's Jodie Whittaker's natural accent.

Bicyclops
Aug 27, 2004

Hey, Karn, what do you say to console someone who just got Thought Erased? You give up? "Need a hand?"


Astroman posted:

Lots of planets have a...Yorkshire?

North still works; Yorkshire is Northern.

Bicyclops
Aug 27, 2004

Hey, Karn, what do you say to console someone who just got Thought Erased? You give up? "Need a hand?"


Muppetjedi posted:

I like the theory that the captain is Gilbert Mackenzie Trench, who built the original police box in 1929.

It's something i can see Moffat doing.

I'm hoping for this rather than a Lethbridge-Stewart.

Bicyclops
Aug 27, 2004

Hey, Karn, what do you say to console someone who just got Thought Erased? You give up? "Need a hand?"


I was holding out hope, but if those lines are in it, there really will be nothing to excuse most of them. That last one in particular, Christ. Like, bad no matter what, but if it's Polly and Ben One, it's supposed to be him after he's already evolved a bunch. I hope none of those are in the episode.

The dusting and spring cleaning ones are the only ones that even border on acceptable.

Bicyclops
Aug 27, 2004

Hey, Karn, what do you say to console someone who just got Thought Erased? You give up? "Need a hand?"


The First Doctor had some background 60s sexism but even when they were trying to depict him as an old, out-of-touch fuddy duddy, he wouldn't have mocked a guy for being a nurse. Plus, gently caress, if you're going to recast the First Doctor, at least take the opportunity to have somebody imitate Hartnell's mannerisms and take the good parts from old show's writing and adjust it for what we've learned in the half a century since.

Like, I get that the idea is probably "Even our hero must learn to adjust his worldview and open his mind to diversity over time, and to admit from his mistakes," but don't throw William Hartnell under the bus by putting words in his mouth by proxy. I really, really hope those are not lines in this special; I've already bought tickets to see it in the theater.

Bicyclops
Aug 27, 2004

Hey, Karn, what do you say to console someone who just got Thought Erased? You give up? "Need a hand?"


Burkion posted:

Again, the worst aspects of the Doctor was a reflection of his WRITERS, not his character.

His character he would have no reason to be sexist or appalled at a bisexual/lesbian woman because why would he?

This is just

loving Christ I hope this isn't in there

Exactly! It'd be like "Hm, what'd contrast the 80s with today? We'll just have Colin Baker immediately strangle the Doctor's companion while yelling 'I loooooooove strangling women!'" and the current Doctor learns that he used be a bad person and evolves to not strangle women, or even hit them with his fists.

If they wanted to do a redemption narrative in which the Doctor learned from some of his ugly mistakes, they probably should have made Twelve watch some of the things he said to Clara and Danny Pink, and reflect on some changes he could make to how he interacts with his wards. Moffat's bests are better than RTD's bests, in my opinion, but one thing I'll see about Russell Davies is that when he commented on Doctor Who (e.g. via Davros in the season 4 finale), he was actually criticizing himself.

Setting up a strawman 1960s Doctor Who to argue against is obnoxious. "See, the Doctor has grown since literally half a century ago" is bad, "See, the Doctor has grown since a more overtly sexist of 1960s media I invented" is worse. The whole thing smacks of Whedony "give me a cookie" feminism. If you want to deconstruct Doctor Who, use the current issues with the show and toxic masculinity instead of arguing against a phantom you invented so that you scold the angry men who don't want to see Jodie Whittaker in the role.

I guess at least I'll get to see a solid 45 seconds of Thirteen.

Bicyclops
Aug 27, 2004

Hey, Karn, what do you say to console someone who just got Thought Erased? You give up? "Need a hand?"


2house2fly posted:

The point is to set up the upcoming female Doctor, who he won't be writing

Again, though, instead of taking arms against a form of sexism constructed by one's own imagination and tarnishing the legacy of the actor who originated the part, why not deconstruct the show as it currently stands? Like, it's not unheard of: Rian Johnson just slaughtered a herd of Star Wars sacred cows in front of its fans while sticking closely to the characterization of the original characters. He had new characters all but dance on the grave of the Star Wars formula while making a film that was pretty drat Star Wars.

I'm disappointed if those lines are true because there's a bunch about the high concept that appeals to Stephen Moffat's strengths (bookends, repetition in which in which the repeated scenes/lines take on new meaning, etc.), but propping the First Doctor up as some kind of Fallout sexist is bad. Meta-commentary is best when it doesn't shove its tongue so firmly into its cheek that it seems vulgar, and there are a lot of times when Moffat has done really well with that, and even poked fun at his own conventions. Waging a war with Twitter misogynists through a ventriloquist act with William Hartnell's corpse stinks.

Bicyclops
Aug 27, 2004

Hey, Karn, what do you say to console someone who just got Thought Erased? You give up? "Need a hand?"


Eiba posted:

If they're dialing up the sexism of the character to comment on the era and how times have changed: good.


Not really? If you're going to comment on an era's sexism, you don't dial it up. That's the way to pretend that progress has been made without actually making any. "Look how much better we can be than this imaginary sexist I invented" is functionally a way to avoid actual criticism of more subtle sexism.

"Your heroes are flawed and it is time to confront that" is alright, but not when you're inventing the flaws yourself for an existing character with a history.

Bicyclops
Aug 27, 2004

Hey, Karn, what do you say to console someone who just got Thought Erased? You give up? "Need a hand?"



Goddamn it

Bicyclops
Aug 27, 2004

Hey, Karn, what do you say to console someone who just got Thought Erased? You give up? "Need a hand?"


Pesky Splinter posted:

Moffat's clearly "referencing" ideas from older Who again :


At this stage, I'll just be happy for a change in direction than it's been for under Moffat - I think he's better at writing one-off episodes than plotting a series direction.

Yeesh. Like people weren't already unhealthily obsessed with Zoe's bottom.

Bicyclops
Aug 27, 2004

Hey, Karn, what do you say to console someone who just got Thought Erased? You give up? "Need a hand?"


Bicyclops posted:

I was holding out hope



WAAAUUUUAAAAAUUUUUUUUUUUUUGHHH!!!

Bicyclops
Aug 27, 2004

Hey, Karn, what do you say to console someone who just got Thought Erased? You give up? "Need a hand?"


It turns out all the bad racist people were Zygons all along, and the solution the whole time was just to hate those dirty, interfering, refugee Zygons, who were the real racists.

I'm not sure Doctor Who in general is the show to tackle the Civil Rights Movement in America in any kind of direct way. I'll wait until we know more, but, yeah... this doesn't look good. Even if it's just scene-setting, like... to what end?

Bicyclops
Aug 27, 2004

Hey, Karn, what do you say to console someone who just got Thought Erased? You give up? "Need a hand?"


Weird how we have to condemn the Hartnell era of Doctor Who by turning the First Doctor into a cartoon racist, but Nixon and Churchill are depicted as lovable scamps who had to be hardass decision makers.

Bicyclops
Aug 27, 2004

Hey, Karn, what do you say to console someone who just got Thought Erased? You give up? "Need a hand?"


I think it was meant to be in defense of casting Jodie Whittaker rather than a defense of his own writing, to be honest, but it was still cowardly to not only compare the current state of the show to 50 years ago, but to an invented version of 50 years ago that needlessly turns up the sexism to 11.

Coincidentally, that's what a Civil Rights era episode is in danger of doing.

Bicyclops
Aug 27, 2004

Hey, Karn, what do you say to console someone who just got Thought Erased? You give up? "Need a hand?"


Fanny packs are apparently in again, although it didn't occur to me until just now that of course they can't call them that in the UK.

Bicyclops
Aug 27, 2004

Hey, Karn, what do you say to console someone who just got Thought Erased? You give up? "Need a hand?"


Virtually everything about this season, as information trickles in, has instilled me with confidence except the Rosa Parks thing which, to be fair, erases all of that confidence and fills me with dread.

Bicyclops
Aug 27, 2004

Hey, Karn, what do you say to console someone who just got Thought Erased? You give up? "Need a hand?"


TL posted:

True, but I can also see the Doctor thinking it’s the greatest, coolest invention ever.

Eleven in particular would have loved them.

Bicyclops
Aug 27, 2004

Hey, Karn, what do you say to console someone who just got Thought Erased? You give up? "Need a hand?"


I think at this point the best that we can hope for is a sort of parallel depiction, in which we see the Rosa Parks story play out, there's an alien threat trying to disrupt it that never comes in direct contact with it, and the beats in the story kind of match up to make it feel like they're connected. Even that, though... it's going to be very, very easy to be insensitive, insulting and cringe-worthy.

Bicyclops
Aug 27, 2004

Hey, Karn, what do you say to console someone who just got Thought Erased? You give up? "Need a hand?"


Timby posted:

Again, Zygons were photographed on-set, so we already know there will be fuckery from them.

Ugh! Why can't leave well enough alone with Zygons, and not use them beyond the scope of what they can do narratively. If only there were some catchy phrase I could use to express this sentiment - Doctor What, help me out here?

Bicyclops
Aug 27, 2004

Hey, Karn, what do you say to console someone who just got Thought Erased? You give up? "Need a hand?"


Good.

Bicyclops
Aug 27, 2004

Hey, Karn, what do you say to console someone who just got Thought Erased? You give up? "Need a hand?"


What a surprise, Astroman is throwing a cringe-worthy tantrum over the fact that a lot of people think involving a white, British alien and the Zygons in a hallmark moment in the American Civil Rights movement is a thunderously bad idea. A bunch of posters are going to tell him that the vicarious embarrassment of watching him try to talk about this is worse than watching The Twin Dilemma on a loop, but he'll double down and continue arguing with a kind of smug vitriol that his uninformed opinion doesn't earn, until, finally, he gets tired of everyone piling on to tell him to shut up and accuses everyone else of "derailing" the discussion.

Bicyclops
Aug 27, 2004

Hey, Karn, what do you say to console someone who just got Thought Erased? You give up? "Need a hand?"


Astrodude, your weird obsession with this issue has no bearing on the current complaint, which is that writing space aliens, in particular, white British ones, into the Civil Rights era is a bad idea. Whatever the Doctor does to save the day will appear either embarrassingly silly or condescending (in a way which erases the accomplishments of important historical figures) against the backdrop. The reason you anticipate that people will say "I didn't actually say that" is because you never actually engage with what people are saying when this kind of thing comes up.

I searched a couple of people's posts, and you are, I am fairly certain, the first person to use the word "racist" to describe the episode (I use the word to describe the supporters of segregation, and facetiously to apply it to the Zygons instead of the real human people; I'm the only one). You are so horribly incapable of having an original thought on this topic that you continuously put words in people's mouths so that you can have the same circular argument. You don't like listening, so you argue against a shrill, abstract phantom of your own creation.

If you would like to discuss why you think it could be brilliant to insert a time traveling space wizard and a set of bad guy aliens who are a variation on the pod people trope into one of America's flashbulb memories with regard to its original sin, feel free to discuss that, instead of embarking on your usual crusade against the grand artistic censorship of people of privilege writing for the oppressed.

Bicyclops
Aug 27, 2004

Hey, Karn, what do you say to console someone who just got Thought Erased? You give up? "Need a hand?"


Guy A. Person posted:

Holy smokes, there's also a difference between "writ(ing) for people of the same gender, sexuality, race or historical nationality" and handling a historically sensitive incident in a show where almost every episode deals with evil aliens being inserted into things.

Like the former thing is also a discussion, but I refused to be dragged there again by loving Astroman, who for some reason decides that's what we're arguing about every time anyone discusses flaws that the show has with regards to representation.

2house2fly posted:

Well, for one it could be educational

I mean, we're not exactly in the Hartnell era anymore, here. I know we have a new showrunner, but I still doubt "Learn about history from Doctor Who" is coming back after approximately a 50 year hiatus.

Bicyclops
Aug 27, 2004

Hey, Karn, what do you say to console someone who just got Thought Erased? You give up? "Need a hand?"



Huh, that could be interesting, because it will mean that the Doctor's involvement in events is to be dragged into them and try to extract herself and her companions and get back to the TARDIS. It would involve not shoehorning in the Zygons or other alien threats if they want to pull it off, though, particularly given that they don't have the time that the old serialized format provided for padding. Like, if they want to go that route, they should be purely historicals, I think.

Bicyclops
Aug 27, 2004

Hey, Karn, what do you say to console someone who just got Thought Erased? You give up? "Need a hand?"


thexerox123 posted:

You can teach things other than just history.

Sure, but what are you going to teach by inserting Zygons into a historical setting, exactly? You don't need the alien threats in historicals, and it's why the Hartnell (and early Troughton) era didn't use them. That's not to say that you can never have aliens attack when you have a story involving backward time travel, just that in a "let's learn about this historical period" story, it's a detriment rather than a feature.

Bicyclops
Aug 27, 2004

Hey, Karn, what do you say to console someone who just got Thought Erased? You give up? "Need a hand?"


Ms Boods posted:


It's interesting stuff -- stories were meant to fall into three categories: historicals/past, future, and 'sideways'. Only rarely really do the shows go 'sideways' -- be nice to see more of that. (What was meant, I think, were things such as alternate universes or more experimental things.) It was stressed that of the three categories, historicals would be the hardest to write, and the writers were expected to do their homework.

I guess the early examples of sideways would be Planet of Giants and The Celestial Toymaker, but I can't really think of anything else that applies in the Hartnell era. I guess arguably The Edge of Destruction or the second half of The Ark? They didn't do too many of the sideways ones.

I do think that philosophy is good for historicals. I don't mind the occasional alien threat in the past, but sometimes you just want to Shakespeare without the alien witch magic and with the Doctor accidentally giving the names of all of his plays.

Bicyclops
Aug 27, 2004

Hey, Karn, what do you say to console someone who just got Thought Erased? You give up? "Need a hand?"


Ms Boods posted:

Another one by Malcolm Hulke falls into the dimensional category. Not sure what this one was meant to be -- a number of the stories on this document are for the original pitch meetings, when they were lining up possible authors and story topics)


It looks like Malcolm Hulke pitched a script in season 1 for a twin planet of Earth's that was ruled by women (lol, how many unproduced, weird versions of Galaxy 4 are there?). I suppose that could be it, if they were aiming to have the planet show itself in present time, although it still feels kind of futurey. Interesting, either way!

Bicyclops
Aug 27, 2004

Hey, Karn, what do you say to console someone who just got Thought Erased? You give up? "Need a hand?"


Mameluke posted:

and sometimes the good parts of the US

Hey, I'll have you know, we have plenty here besides the White House, the Wild West and New York City. The Doctor could meet Ben Affleck trying very hahd to get out of Boston, for example, or she could tear down confederate statues in the South.

Bicyclops
Aug 27, 2004

Hey, Karn, what do you say to console someone who just got Thought Erased? You give up? "Need a hand?"


Sydney Bottocks posted:

I'm personally looking forward to the episode where the Doctor has to try and bring peace between two neighboring factions on the verge of all-out war: Michigan State football fans vs. U of M football fans.

I'm looking forward to when Bostonians rightfully side with the Daleks against a much worse enemy, Bucky loving Dent.

Bicyclops
Aug 27, 2004

Hey, Karn, what do you say to console someone who just got Thought Erased? You give up? "Need a hand?"


I hope the clip stays up until I get home.

Not really digging the new sonic, it's a little too 90's Nickelodeon Aggro Crag.

Bicyclops
Aug 27, 2004

Hey, Karn, what do you say to console someone who just got Thought Erased? You give up? "Need a hand?"


She's got the Doctor down already and I'm loving the accent. Clip was good.

Bicyclops
Aug 27, 2004

Hey, Karn, what do you say to console someone who just got Thought Erased? You give up? "Need a hand?"


Astroman posted:


Love the goggles when she's in Work-Mode.


Yeah, people are going to call that gimmicky or an easy laugh, but I would like to say right now, on this day, that I register my full support for the goggles, and I hope she wears them often.

Bicyclops
Aug 27, 2004

Hey, Karn, what do you say to console someone who just got Thought Erased? You give up? "Need a hand?"


I looked through his work a little, and I think this is the one I can most imagine being in Doctor Who:

https://twitter.com/segunakinola/st...626436765863936

To say he's less bombastic and more ephemeral in general than Murray Gold is an understatement. He's definitely a change, which I think is good (we don't want to just get Murray Gold 2.0, it only invites comparisons). He seems like a decent guy, and I hope that his composing is good and that he enjoys working on the show.

e: Okay, also, this is pretty good:

https://soundcloud.com/segunakinola/kingsyard

Bicyclops fucked around with this message at Jun 26, 2018 around 22:43

Bicyclops
Aug 27, 2004

Hey, Karn, what do you say to console someone who just got Thought Erased? You give up? "Need a hand?"


HD DAD posted:

This composer, along with the leaked material over the last 24 hours, has me very optimistic for series 11. The only thing that could bring this down is Chibnall himself as a writer.

I feel like all of it makes the season a mystery, but engenders good will. A cool, upcoming composer with some good pieces who doesn't have a major network show under his belt yet, a talented woman who has done both comedy and drama and is being allowed to use her natural accent, a diverse crew of three companions, without a ton of knowledge as to when or where they're from, and the writer of both Broadchurch and Torchwood.

Seems like we got us a Doctor Who season on our hands!!

Bicyclops
Aug 27, 2004

Hey, Karn, what do you say to console someone who just got Thought Erased? You give up? "Need a hand?"


Rhyno posted:

I'm hype.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Bicyclops
Aug 27, 2004

Hey, Karn, what do you say to console someone who just got Thought Erased? You give up? "Need a hand?"


I'm still not sure what kind of Doctor Thirteen is or what her companions will be like, but I know that I am excited to find out.

  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • Post
  • Reply
«2 »