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really queer Christmas
Apr 22, 2014

Have you heard the good word?


Is something really wrong with attrition? Friend and I decided to say gently caress it and play on the patch anyway and I was losing like 1-2K men a tick just walking over my own provinces, I routinely lost every single man I had on any war I fought. My friend was reporting the same, and I know Ming constantly had 0 manpower.

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Gimmick Account
Dec 18, 2002



really queer Christmas posted:

Is something really wrong with attrition? Friend and I decided to say gently caress it and play on the patch anyway and I was losing like 1-2K men a tick just walking over my own provinces, I routinely lost every single man I had on any war I fought. My friend was reporting the same, and I know Ming constantly had 0 manpower.

I'm not a programmer, but I still wonder how they managed to break so much that both wasn't broken and also didn't appear to be within the design focus of this DLC. Like many others before me have said, as more and more suddenly dysfunctional systems come to light, this is starting to look worse than even 'old Paradox'.

MonsieurChoc
Oct 12, 2013

Every species can smell its own extinction.




How do I switch to a military dictatorship for those amazing blessed leaders before they patch them out?

sdasdas
Dec 29, 2012


Gimmick Account posted:

I'm not a programmer, but I still wonder how they managed to break so much that both wasn't broken and also didn't appear to be within the design focus of this DLC. Like many others before me have said, as more and more suddenly dysfunctional systems come to light, this is starting to look worse than even 'old Paradox'.

For large applications like this usually there's tons of dependencies between different parts of the codebase that isn't intuitive at all, even to the developers. Since it's too much for anyone to track manually the codebase should be blanketed in automated tests that are run for any change, so that if modifying the cost of cavalry messes up Tibet's coring costs the problem is caught immediately and can be fixed. However with the breakneck DLC release schedule and mention of mounting "tech debt" I'm guessing this isn't the case.

Caustic Soda
Nov 1, 2010


Military Dictatorship is available for Milan. Trigger the Ambrosian Republic Disaster. Hire Sforza (you need rebels or to be at war for this). If he's been hired for more than 700 days, an event can fire to let him become dictator. When he's ruled for a year or more, he'll try to become duke of Milan. Overthrow him and replace him with a new dictator instead.

Alternatively, a custom nation could start as a Military Dictatorship.

Technically Switzerland can get such a gov't too, but only by going to war with the Revolutionary target, so.

Vizuyos
Jun 17, 2020

Thank U for reading

If you hated it...
FUCK U and never come back


Gimmick Account posted:

I'm not a programmer, but I still wonder how they managed to break so much that both wasn't broken and also didn't appear to be within the design focus of this DLC. Like many others before me have said, as more and more suddenly dysfunctional systems come to light, this is starting to look worse than even 'old Paradox'.

When a dev team has been working on a very complex project for a while, they'll develop kind of an intuition about what tends to go wrong, what needs to be double-checked, what bits connect to each other in ways that aren't immediately obvious, and what absolutely shouldn't be changed ever. It gives them a sort of gut feeling that helps them get ahead of the worst issues. Unless the project is packed to the gills with in-depth documentation and heavy automated testing, that accumulated institutional knowledge is crucial to keeping the product from falling apart, and swapping out too much of the dev team at once blows away that safety valve.

Aside from that, it seems like Paradox game dev doesn't have much in the way of automated testing (especially integration testing to catch user-facing issues like wrong numbers), but there's way too much stuff to reasonably test manually - especially when it comes to regression testing.

MonsieurChoc
Oct 12, 2013

Every species can smell its own extinction.




Caustic Soda posted:

Military Dictatorship is available for Milan. Trigger the Ambrosian Republic Disaster. Hire Sforza (you need rebels or to be at war for this). If he's been hired for more than 700 days, an event can fire to let him become dictator. When he's ruled for a year or more, he'll try to become duke of Milan. Overthrow him and replace him with a new dictator instead.

Alternatively, a custom nation could start as a Military Dictatorship.

Technically Switzerland can get such a gov't too, but only by going to war with the Revolutionary target, so.

I was hoping I could use that with any nation, but a Milan game sounds fun.

AAAAA! Real Muenster
Jul 12, 2008

My QB is also named Bort



Anno posted:

I donít know that this will have significant long-term effects or not. But it sure feels like it puts them on watch at least.
My opinion might change for EU4 because the EU series has a special place in my heart, and because with other games I dont like so much (cough Stellaris cough) my opinion eventually changed because they released a really good patch. But right now for EU4 I think I'm done with it. I wanted to do some more cool achievement runs, but Leviathan kinda killed my enthusiasm for the game, because I was really excited for Leviathan and now instead of playing it I'm laughing my rear end off at how incredibly badly they hosed up and I just know it will probably be months before I can actually play, at which point any of my remaining enthusiasm will be gone.

Jazerus
May 24, 2011



MonsieurChoc posted:

I was hoping I could use that with any nation, but a Milan game sounds fun.

milan is really good. probably the minor in the best position to snipe byzantium (as long as you start scum a couple times to be on good terms with austria and hungary you can just march straight there) and either the dictatorship or the ambrosian republic are cool, unique, and fun

Vivian Darkbloom
Jul 14, 2004



I know I've posted a few Leviathan screwups already, but wow



AAAAA! Real Muenster posted:

My opinion might change for EU4 because the EU series has a special place in my heart, and because with other games I dont like so much (cough Stellaris cough) my opinion eventually changed because they released a really good patch. But right now for EU4 I think I'm done with it. I wanted to do some more cool achievement runs, but Leviathan kinda killed my enthusiasm for the game, because I was really excited for Leviathan and now instead of playing it I'm laughing my rear end off at how incredibly badly they hosed up and I just know it will probably be months before I can actually play, at which point any of my remaining enthusiasm will be gone.

Even 1.30 is pretty terrible in terms of balance, because the AI can't afford to build the worthwhile buildings and always falls way behind. I think the direction has been troubling for a while.

trapped mouse
May 25, 2008



I haven't even considered starting up EU4 since this whole thing went down. It's going to need so many bugfixes and balance fixes that clearly haven't arrived yet, and right now I've been glued to Imperator anyway so I've been getting my fix that way. I guess we'll see how well it develops in the future, I'll probably start playing it again at some point but I haven't even bought the new DLC, and I have every goddamn EU4 DLC, even the small useless ones.

TMMadman
Sep 9, 2003

Bat 'em up!




I've been thinking about it and I really like playing games that don't have any information about Europe. Countries in the Americas, middle of Africa or the far east.

I just really like seeing what how Europe shakes out without any player influence. The Aztec game I'm playing had Two Sicilies form which is something I've never seen before. Portugal has run into some trouble and went bankrupt and got crushed by Spain and probably wars with Morocco/Tunis and i think natives crushed their first colony in Brazil. England went crazy and has colonized a lot of southern south America as well as south Africa. I'm not sure how the HRE nations are doing, but the ottomans are exploring south America. France seems to be doing ok and they about to have a colonial nation form in the Columbia area, although it doesn't seem like they really blobbed out and are just kind of middle of the road strong.

Like I'd honestly start a game up in 1444 and just watch the AI play the entire game because every single game would be different in some way.

AAAAA! Real Muenster
Jul 12, 2008

My QB is also named Bort



Vivian Darkbloom posted:

Even 1.30 is pretty terrible in terms of balance, because the AI can't afford to build the worthwhile buildings and always falls way behind. I think the direction has been troubling for a while.
Yeah part of my problem is that there are fundamental issues that just hang around. We know the devs play the game but the AI getting even the richest countries into debt spirals took, what, almost a year to get fixed? How many months did we live with the AI building nothing but coastal defense batteries as the one and only building they care about?

Dr. Video Games 0031
Jul 16, 2004



This patch seems decent. Biggest unintended change this patch is that vassalization has been removed from the peace options for every CB other than Subjugation. I'll take that over the crashing and save game corruption.

Dr. Video Games 0031 fucked around with this message at 22:33 on May 3, 2021

oddium
Feb 20, 2006


leave it behind i say. give us e u 5 clap clap clapclap clap

MonsieurChoc
Oct 12, 2013

Every species can smell its own extinction.




Jazerus posted:

milan is really good. probably the minor in the best position to snipe byzantium (as long as you start scum a couple times to be on good terms with austria and hungary you can just march straight there) and either the dictatorship or the ambrosian republic are cool, unique, and fun

They seem to have fixed the super-rulers exploits.

Dr. Video Games 0031
Jul 16, 2004



oddium posted:

leave it behind i say. give us e u 5 clap clap clapclap clap

i've been saying this. never been a better time to start over from a blank slate, imo.

Kagon
Jan 25, 2005






oddium posted:

leave it behind i say. give us e u 5 clap clap clapclap clap

This seems like the most sane option at this point. Too many of the dlc ideas not remotely integrating, a ridiculous technical debt, and all the other issues make EU5 seem like the best plan moving forward after they put out the fires post-Leviathan. I've loved the game, but I don't really have much enthusiasm about going back to it at all anymore.

Mans
Sep 14, 2011

We have the dimension of an empire.


Creating a subscription system for your 300 dollar DLC game, release a DLC that absolutely smashes even the basic features of the game and then abandon it to make a sequel would be quite a brave move.

Dr. Video Games 0031
Jul 16, 2004



Mans posted:

Creating a subscription system for your 300 dollar DLC game, release a DLC that absolutely smashes even the basic features of the game and then abandon it to make a sequel would be quite a brave move.

I agree they should continue fixing the content that's already there, but note that they also started a subscription thing for CK2, a game that will get no further updates at all and has a sequel already released. The subscription system is just a way to get all the DLC for cheap, so the $300 DLC game is now a $5 a month game instead. I don't think it has much bearing on whether they decide to continue releasing more DLC for it (and indeed, it seems they prefer this system for older games with lots of DLC already)

Dr. Video Games 0031 fucked around with this message at 07:31 on May 4, 2021

Detheros
Apr 11, 2010

Great!




AAAAA! Real Muenster posted:

How many months did we live with the AI building nothing but coastal defense batteries as the one and only building they care about?

Considering the AI was building regiment camps in every single loving province in my last game before Leviathan....never? (I haven't played Leviathan yet for obvious reasons)

TMMadman
Sep 9, 2003

Bat 'em up!




Hmmm...I'm curious about something in my Aztec game. I was able to take advantage of the current situation of a bankrupt Portugal having only a 6 province colonial nation in Brazil and was a province short of forming one in Columbia, plus having no allies after getting their rear end kicked by Spain which left Portugal with only two of their home provinces. So I declared on Portugal since and took over everything because why shouldn't I start the sunset invasion in the 1570s.

But now I'm trying to decide: would it better to just fully annex Portugal and let the colonial nation live under my control or if it's better to just annex everything. I'm playing version 1.30, so I can't normally create colonial nations as the Aztecs.

Bloody Pom
Jun 5, 2011




Darkrenown posted:

Games õ Europa Universalis 4: Leviathan Breaks

Bloody Pom fucked around with this message at 03:16 on May 4, 2021

AAAAA! Real Muenster
Jul 12, 2008

My QB is also named Bort



TMMadman posted:

Hmmm...I'm curious about something in my Aztec game. I was able to take advantage of the current situation of a bankrupt Portugal having only a 6 province colonial nation in Brazil and was a province short of forming one in Columbia, plus having no allies after getting their rear end kicked by Spain which left Portugal with only two of their home provinces. So I declared on Portugal since and took over everything because why shouldn't I start the sunset invasion in the 1570s.

But now I'm trying to decide: would it better to just fully annex Portugal and let the colonial nation live under my control or if it's better to just annex everything. I'm playing version 1.30, so I can't normally create colonial nations as the Aztecs.
If you annex Portugal and own land in Europe I imagine you would get dogpiled by other euros, while if you like... vassalize them and annex them later after you feed their European cores back to them you might be in better position? I'm not sure though. Also not sure what would be better to do w/r/t the colonial nation.

ilitarist
Apr 26, 2016

illiterate and militarist


Mans posted:

Creating a subscription system for your 300 dollar DLC game, release a DLC that absolutely smashes even the basic features of the game and then abandon it to make a sequel would be quite a brave move.

Sadly true. If anything, this should make them postpone announcing EU5 even if they were going to do that on PDXcon.

But their PR is not at their best nowadays. They've declared they're stopping working on Imperator Rome right after they broke another flagship title, sending a message that they can just do that. Not that I:R is in a bad place now but it could certainly use some fixes. And while they've added several expandions owrth of free updates there was never a proper expansion for this game to buy, just flavour packs with few features (wonders come close but you have a lot of them in a base game anyway).

Plus this I:R announcement was a day after Total War Rome Romastered came out. Certainly a coincedence but it looks funny. So I wouldn't be sure PDX won't just announce EU5 before EU4 is playable.

Dr. Video Games 0031
Jul 16, 2004



ilitarist posted:

Sadly true. If anything, this should make them postpone announcing EU5 even if they were going to do that on PDXcon.

They were not going to do that. They've stated that they intend to work on EU4 for a while longer before moving on to EU5. Like, at least a few more expansion cycles. That's the part I wish they would reconsider.

ilitarist
Apr 26, 2016

illiterate and militarist


Yeah, the sad thing about Leviathan is that even if they fix the game (and it's already hard to imagine it becoming as stable as it was after Emperor, which is not a high standard) it will probably not get a lot of further updates. One of the best strategy games of all time is tainted and it's hard to see devs putting enough effort to fully clean it.

Jel Shaker
Apr 19, 2003



TMMadman posted:

Hmmm...I'm curious about something in my Aztec game. I was able to take advantage of the current situation of a bankrupt Portugal having only a 6 province colonial nation in Brazil and was a province short of forming one in Columbia, plus having no allies after getting their rear end kicked by Spain which left Portugal with only two of their home provinces. So I declared on Portugal since and took over everything because why shouldn't I start the sunset invasion in the 1570s.

But now I'm trying to decide: would it better to just fully annex Portugal and let the colonial nation live under my control or if it's better to just annex everything. I'm playing version 1.30, so I can't normally create colonial nations as the Aztecs.

i would say vassal and scutage, so you have a beachhead landing point once you have the ticker maxed out, remember that youíll need the azores as a staging point as you literally loose 90% of your men boating them over

Koramei
Nov 11, 2011

I just pretend to be nice.


Lipstick Apathy

Dr. Video Games 0031 posted:

They were not going to do that. They've stated that they intend to work on EU4 for a while longer before moving on to EU5. Like, at least a few more expansion cycles. That's the part I wish they would reconsider.

I'm kind of lost with Paradox's internal structure at this point and maybe the things about them being short on staff might change this, but I'm pretty surprised if they're not going to be working on EU5 even as the final few expansions for EU4 come out.

Dr. Video Games 0031
Jul 16, 2004



Koramei posted:

I'm kind of lost with Paradox's internal structure at this point and maybe the things about them being short on staff might change this, but I'm pretty surprised if they're not going to be working on EU5 even as the final few expansions for EU4 come out.

So, EU has essentially been handed off to a new studio based in Barcelona, headed up by Johan. They're.... 12, 15? members large at this point, according to a post on the paradox forums Johan recently made, and still looking for more staff. I would not be surprised if pre-production starts this year, but it's not a huge studio and they've said that they'll be working on EU4 for some time to come. Paradox also reorganized their Stockholm studio recently into separate CK3, HoI4, and Stellaris mini-studios (like the previous team-based arrangement but with a more distinct leadership structure within each one I think?). Anyway, Tinto, the Barcelona studio, is the new EU studio where all EU-related things will happen, and they seem to be only about EU4 right now. Leviathan and 1.31 were developed in part at PDS in Stockholm before Tinto's formation, and then finished at Tinto. That may partially account for why this expansion and patch were messier than the others.

Torrannor
Apr 27, 2013

---FAGNER---
TEAM-MATE


Dr. Video Games 0031 posted:

So, EU has essentially been handed off to a new studio based in Barcelona, headed up by Johan. They're.... 12, 15? members large at this point, according to a post on the paradox forums Johan recently made, and still looking for more staff. I would not be surprised if pre-production starts this year, but it's not a huge studio and they've said that they'll be working on EU4 for some time to come. Paradox also reorganized their Stockholm studio recently into separate CK3, HoI4, and Stellaris mini-studios (like the previous team-based arrangement but with a more distinct leadership structure within each one I think?). Anyway, Tinto, the Barcelona studio, is the new EU studio where all EU-related things will happen, and they seem to be only about EU4 right now. Leviathan and 1.31 were developed in part at PDS in Stockholm before Tinto's formation, and then finished at Tinto. That may partially account for why this expansion and patch were messier than the others.

Interesting stuff. But that makes me wonder, who would work on EUV then? You don't hand your flagship title to a new studio, right? Perhaps EUV is the secret project Wiz is working on, and Tinto will basically close out EUIV with a few more patches and DLCs?

Dr. Video Games 0031
Jul 16, 2004



Torrannor posted:

Interesting stuff. But that makes me wonder, who would work on EUV then? You don't hand your flagship title to a new studio, right? Perhaps EUV is the secret project Wiz is working on, and Tinto will basically close out EUIV with a few more patches and DLCs?

Johan is still in charge at the new studio, and there may be a handful of other paradox vets there, I don't remember. Based on the press releases from Paradox at the time of the studio's creation, the future of EU rests entirely in Tinto's hands. I imagine that will eventually mean EUV, too.

ilitarist
Apr 26, 2016

illiterate and militarist


I didn't see it posted in this thread, but apparently, hotfix silently turned the previously free feature (Mandala government) into a Leviathan-only feature?.. It was added in Dharma but then it became free and now you have to buy it again. Forums are on fire again. I understand that those hotfixes can't be tested at all and devs are probably forced to fix the game overtime, but oh wow.

This expansion keeps on giving.

Cockblocktopus
Apr 18, 2009

Since the beginning of time, man has yearned to destroy the sun.



Caustic Soda posted:

Military Dictatorship is available for Milan. Trigger the Ambrosian Republic Disaster. Hire Sforza (you need rebels or to be at war for this). If he's been hired for more than 700 days, an event can fire to let him become dictator. When he's ruled for a year or more, he'll try to become duke of Milan. Overthrow him and replace him with a new dictator instead.

Alternatively, a custom nation could start as a Military Dictatorship.

Technically Switzerland can get such a gov't too, but only by going to war with the Revolutionary target, so.

Your first post-Sforza ruler won't have insane stats (and possibly the one after that? I think I had to go through a couple guys before getting a crazy number). You also need to keep generals around; after your existing ruler dies, one of your generals takes over. If you don't have any generals then you get a generic leader with non-broken stats. I've only really seen the millions/billions of monarch points in Admin and Diplo, but you can typically get at least 30 military points as well so floating at least 5 generals shouldn't be a problem.

Also all your generals-into-rulers will start at like 102 years old so you'll have a new guy come to power every 18 months or so.

AAAAA! Real Muenster
Jul 12, 2008

My QB is also named Bort



Cockblocktopus posted:

Your first post-Sforza ruler won't have insane stats (and possibly the one after that? I think I had to go through a couple guys before getting a crazy number). You also need to keep generals around; after your existing ruler dies, one of your generals takes over. If you don't have any generals then you get a generic leader with non-broken stats. I've only really seen the millions/billions of monarch points in Admin and Diplo, but you can typically get at least 30 military points as well so floating at least 5 generals shouldn't be a problem.

Also all your generals-into-rulers will start at like 102 years old so you'll have a new guy come to power every 18 months or so.
I wish I could frame this post.

MonsieurChoc
Oct 12, 2013

Every species can smell its own extinction.




Cockblocktopus posted:

Your first post-Sforza ruler won't have insane stats (and possibly the one after that? I think I had to go through a couple guys before getting a crazy number). You also need to keep generals around; after your existing ruler dies, one of your generals takes over. If you don't have any generals then you get a generic leader with non-broken stats. I've only really seen the millions/billions of monarch points in Admin and Diplo, but you can typically get at least 30 military points as well so floating at least 5 generals shouldn't be a problem.

Also all your generals-into-rulers will start at like 102 years old so you'll have a new guy come to power every 18 months or so.

Huh, gonna continue that game then.

TMMadman
Sep 9, 2003

Bat 'em up!




Jel Shaker posted:

i would say vassal and scutage, so you have a beachhead landing point once you have the ticker maxed out, remember that youíll need the azores as a staging point as you literally loose 90% of your men boating them over

I decided to say gently caress it and I annexed everything. I did take like a -60 aggressive expansion hit, but that really only affected Spain and some colonial nations in the Americas. There wasn't even a threat of a coalition forming. So now I own a nice section of South America where the Columbia and Brazil colonial areas meet. Plus I took the islands of Cape Verde, the Azores and Medeira and the only provinces that Portugal had left on the mainland, Lisboa and Ribetejo.

It got me really close to being able to convert my government into an empire, but I was able to do that once I immediately slammed into the tiny little 5 province (with 2 more building) colonial nation of British Louisiana (which for some reason had province that was developed to level 26). It really should be illegal for me to attack colonial nations without them getting their overlord involved. I could have sworn they did protect their nations the last time I played, but I may have started attacking them at a later time, plus it was an older revision, or maybe I was just attacking the overlord and dragging the colonial nations into the wars. I don't remember.

But now I'm just laughing that it's the mid 1570s and I already have a toehold in continental Europe as the Aztecs and I'm only like 2 or 3 admin/diplo techs behind and only 1 military tech behind and I've embraced all the current institutions.

PittTheElder
Feb 13, 2012

Yes, it's like a lava lamp.



They used to get involved years and years ago, but New World nations being able to attack them freely has been a thing for a long time now. Just heads up though, annexing all the colonial nations ASAP is actually counterproductive, you want to let them colonize for you and then hoover up their land for free.

Torrannor posted:

Interesting stuff. But that makes me wonder, who would work on EUV then? You don't hand your flagship title to a new studio, right? Perhaps EUV is the secret project Wiz is working on, and Tinto will basically close out EUIV with a few more patches and DLCs?

My purely speculative opinion is that they're going to let Tinto cut their teeth on some EU4 expansions, and only then turn them loose on EU5. I think they've said they're announcing a new title at PDXcon (which is obviously Vicky 3 but I digress) and my guess is that that's what Wiz is working on.

An interesting question I have is whether they're feeling the need for a major engine overhaul (which I would expect to ship with an EU game), or whether the Jomini upgrade for Imperator has set them for the foreseeable future.

TMMadman
Sep 9, 2003

Bat 'em up!




PittTheElder posted:

They used to get involved years and years ago, but New World nations being able to attack them freely has been a thing for a long time now. Just heads up though, annexing all the colonial nations ASAP is actually counterproductive, you want to let them colonize for you and then hoover up their land for free.

Oh yeah I know...I had British Louisiana trapped into a small area between the edge of my growing northern boundary and couple of provinces I had started colonizing between British Louisiana and the Spanish colony of Florida (which now stretches from actual Florida almost all the way up the east coast of America), they were as big as they were ever going to get since I had them blocked from the interior of America between my territory and the Chickasaw and Cherokee tribes that are my allies. I've been happily letting Florida gobble up the coast and I'm probably going to start whittling them down soon. I'm also working on trapping the colony of French Columbia in a pocket of space which will let them continue to colonize some space so that I can crush them later.

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Fintilgin
Sep 29, 2004

Fintilgin sweeps!

PittTheElder posted:

They used to get involved years and years ago, but New World nations being able to attack them freely has been a thing for a long time now. Just heads up though, annexing all the colonial nations ASAP is actually counterproductive, you want to let them colonize for you and then hoover up their land for free.

It's pretty goofy. I reverted to 1.30.6 and messed around with a native American game for a bit. It was hilarious watching England plant a colony next to me, immediately go massively negative relations due to wanting all my land, and then as soon as the colony completed go back to +100 due to my diplomat improving relations. Also they colonized the Newfoundland area really quickly so I just rolled over and annexed like ~20+ provinces in two wars and wiped out the colonial nation, while England just smiled benignly the whole time.

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