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Kulkasha
Jan 15, 2010

But it was all right, everything was all right, the struggle was finished. He had won the victory over himself. He loved Likchenpa.


God forbid they introduce a dynamic philosophy system based on CK3's religion system or something, it's not like this is the time period of enlightenment or republicanism or anything.

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skasion
Feb 13, 2012

Why don't you perform zazen, facing a wall?


Gamerofthegame posted:

plenty of hardcoded things, some ideas like pops, etc

I don't think eu5 would work well just because I am not sure how you could revolutionize it enough to make a selling point. Ck3 worked because it really hyped up religion as a society defining aspect, but I am not sure that sort of thing would work in a eu context

Internal politics

Cockblocktopus
Apr 18, 2009

Since the beginning of time, man has yearned to destroy the sun.



Honestly yeah if there's one thing that would justify a new release of a new map game it's probably... a new map.

Trim out all the stuff that they don't want to maintain (non-1444 start dates, random new world, etc.), update the map, add in a couple new systems from other Paradox games (some kind of sieging automation please), and you've got EU5.

You could do a new map with an expansion Divine Wind-style but that's probably not tenable with the EU4 DLC model, especially since they already vocally hate maintaining one post-1444 map.

ilitarist
Apr 26, 2016

illiterate and militarist


Gamerofthegame posted:

I don't think eu5 would work well just because I am not sure how you could revolutionize it enough to make a selling point. Ck3 worked because it really hyped up religion as a society defining aspect, but I am not sure that sort of thing would work in a eu context

I thought CK3 needed something revolutionary to work but it turned out it didn't.

EU5 can take the game into a lot of new directions. Internal politics with proper parties and government reforms - after all, this is the period of transition from feudalism to absolutism and later to various forms of representative governments. They can double down on the economy and trade aspect, making so that trade goods really affect stuff in a variety of ways, and thus colonization is suddenly interesting. They can make naval stuff cool... somehow. But they don't have to. EU4 but a little better is cool. And I include dropping half of mechanics and streamlining half of what's left in "better" category.

oddium
Feb 20, 2006


the big systems i could see being revamped for eu5 are estates, mercenaries, and states/territories. the systems they've never nailed down to begin with

Edgar Allen Ho
Apr 3, 2017


Quoth James Cameron,

"Nevermore"



The Imperator levy/legion system plus better mercs would be a good way to represent the transition from feudal and mercenary armies to standing armies

ilitarist
Apr 26, 2016

illiterate and militarist


After some time people will realize Imperator had everything they wanted of EU5.

AnEdgelord
Dec 12, 2016



ilitarist posted:

After some time people will realize Imperator had everything they wanted of EU5.

Well it does now, it took a little bit to get there though.

But keep characters out of it and leave them in ck3. Their presence is actively detrimental in imperator, especially for republics.

Darkrenown
Jul 18, 2012

The level of betrayal I felt when Paradox announced their new DLC tore something from me that I'll never be able to recover. They tore away my ability to respect anything, and they tore away my ability to feel human.

Edgar Allen Ho posted:

The Imperator levy/legion system plus better mercs would be a good way to represent the transition from feudal and mercenary armies to standing armies

The levy/legion system is neat in some ways, but it has some scaling problems as a small nation - because there's a 4 levy minimum you need to expand a lot within your starting region to get that 5th levy, while taking one province in a new region nets you another 4 instantly. And then with mercs, even the smallest merc doubles your army size. So the first minor in an area to either get a 2nd region, manage or hire mercs, or to a lesser extent get the xth pop which finally gives the 5th levy, can suddenly eat all their 4 levy neighbours.

Anno
May 10, 2017

I'm going to drown! For no reason at all!

As a relatively recent newcomer to PDS games (when Stellaris launched) Iíd really love for EU4 to get the CK3 treatment. Nice new map, throw out a bunch of bad old systems, integrate the ones that were good into the base game, come up with a handful of new things/new UI and ship it in a really clean technical state. Iím sure thatís hard as hell to do but I really struggle to get into the current game regardless of how much volume of content it has.

BONGHITZ
Jan 1, 1970

how can i listen to my pirated albums? oh wait.





Iíve sunk way too much money in this thing. I donít even want to think about doing it again

Red Bones
Aug 9, 2012

"I think he's a bad enough person to stay ghost through his sheer love of child-killing."



Theres a lot of static systems like the trade network or fixed colonial regions that should really be reworked as dynamic systems in an EU5. Would make it a lot more fun to play outside of Europe.

Colonisation could also probably be made more interesting than send a colonist -> wait for colony to fill up. Its a war game anyway, why not let people deal with the continuous smaller regional armed conflicts that occurred during the colonisation of places like North America?

AnEdgelord
Dec 12, 2016



Yeah the fact that the western hemisphere and its mechanics are not in the same galaxy as even the pop history, let alone the academic history, is a big thing they could finally address with EU5.

AAAAA! Real Muenster
Jul 12, 2008

My QB is also named Bort



Gamerofthegame posted:

plenty of hardcoded things, some ideas like pops, etc

I don't think eu5 would work well just because I am not sure how you could revolutionize it enough to make a selling point. Ck3 worked because it really hyped up religion as a society defining aspect, but I am not sure that sort of thing would work in a eu context
You could by making pops a part of the game, having the game gracefully shift from a seasonal levy army to a standing army way of managing armies, naval combat that isnt opaque, boring, and super swingy, better trade (so its dynamic rather than "all trade leads to Europe", especially because by the later dates the European empires were competing to sell their manufactured wares in Asia and Africa), family trees so its not stupid bullshit RNG so all the important countries that had hereditary rulers dont come of age and get an heir that is 5 years younger or if they do the 5-years-younger-heir gets pushed to the side when the ruler has kids, so PUs cant be abused and make more sense, colonization not being a multi-threaded thing where people are created out of thin air because a colonist is there, uhhh I'm sure i could think of more if you'd like.

edit: should have gone to the new page before responding

AAAAA! Real Muenster fucked around with this message at 19:01 on May 6, 2021

TMMadman
Sep 9, 2003

Bat 'em up!




Haha...as another tribute to my Byzantium game, I am going for the "Georgia on my Mind" achievement. I just finished invading Aq Qoyunlu in a no CB war and took 2 of the 3 states I need in the Caucuses (the colony on South Georgia Island is almost done and the two states of Georgia I'll need in America will be easy as pie to get). I should release the land in the name of Imereti as a true tribute, but I'll probably release it as Georgia since they own the cores on the land and it'll be easier. Or maybe I'll just keep the land, I'm kind of undecided at the moment.

aqu
Aug 1, 2006

But Mooooooooom


Dynamic trade routes in EUV would be real neat.

PittTheElder
Feb 13, 2012

Yes, it's like a lava lamp.



Seriously. Colonialism is probably the central idea of the series, it'd be cool if that part was more realistic, with Asian trade being a loving boom town, Europe most a poor backwater at game start, and then European states managing to hook themselves into that trade and making bank. It'd be cool if there was actually a reason for Portugal to go to India.

ilitarist
Apr 26, 2016

illiterate and militarist


The issue with that is that in 1444 European dominance is not exactly set in stone. And people would want it to be. Even now you don't see Europeans having empires as big and sprawling as they had in history.

Just like Hearts of Iron 4 has to make a lot of unlikely things guaranteed (like Germany being allowed to go wild with annexations till Poland) because they happened in history and having WW2 game where half of the time Allies just punish Germany in 1937 and everyone lives in peace is not fun. If they do it "realistically" they'll have to add complex and unintuitive systems making sure AI Europe starts weak but most of the time becomes hegemon. If they don't then it would feel forced, like Europeans having a better tech growth for some reason.

Mans
Sep 14, 2011

We have the dimension of an empire.


ilitarist posted:

But this are all good things.

EU4 suffers from feature creep. There are a lot of disjointed systems. They can't cut what they sold in DLC so we stuck with all of them till the sequel. Higher base system requirements are fine because EU4 was made in 2013 and is supposed to work on hardware that was old even in 2013. It doesn't support higher resolutions well. And having a version of EU4 that doesn't need a DLC buying guide would be great, just like CK3 at the moment. Also it looks like they've changed their ways with CK3 so you won't need those guides in the future.

CK3 style sound design, UI and map would make EU5 a much more enjoyable experience even if it's just like EU4 on release. But it's all fantasy since EU5 won't be announced in a foreseeable future.

The "at the moment" part is what worries me.

Torrannor
Apr 27, 2013

---FAGNER---
TEAM-MATE


I don't quite understand the problem. Of course there will be tons of DLC for CK3 or EUV to buy, but isn't it better to buy DLC for a new game instead of an old game where the mechanics just pile up and up and up and it's a total mess? Because if they don't make EUV, you will just continue to buy DLC for EUIV.

Poil
Mar 17, 2007


PittTheElder posted:

Seriously. Colonialism is probably the central idea of the series, it'd be cool if that part was more realistic, with Asian trade being a loving boom town, Europe most a poor backwater at game start, and then European states managing to hook themselves into that trade and making bank. It'd be cool if there was actually a reason for Portugal to go to India.
Maybe they could even implement the silk road. Currently it barely even exists in the early game and only really takes off as the centuries pass.

hot cocoa on the couch
Dec 8, 2009



ilitarist posted:

The issue with that is that in 1444 European dominance is not exactly set in stone. And people would want it to be. Even now you don't see Europeans having empires as big and sprawling as they had in history.

Just like Hearts of Iron 4 has to make a lot of unlikely things guaranteed (like Germany being allowed to go wild with annexations till Poland) because they happened in history and having WW2 game where half of the time Allies just punish Germany in 1937 and everyone lives in peace is not fun. If they do it "realistically" they'll have to add complex and unintuitive systems making sure AI Europe starts weak but most of the time becomes hegemon. If they don't then it would feel forced, like Europeans having a better tech growth for some reason.

yeah the funny part about making a game that tries to be a "simulator", or at least has simulation elements, is that sometimes you discover that what happened in real life turns out to have been a very unlikely event and when trying to replicate it using "historical" parameters (however dubious those initial conditions may be sometimes, sociological simulation is hard), it happens very rarely. Most people playing a game called Europa Universalis expect to see, for example, a dominant English/British colonial empire, which some may argue was the result of some unlikely and fortunate circumstances that may be hard to replicate in a game without just boosting the hell out of them. A bunch of weird poo poo happened in our timeline to get us where we are today and it may be hard to reliably reproduce that, depending on how gamey/simulationist you want to be

AAAAA! Real Muenster
Jul 12, 2008

My QB is also named Bort



hot cocoa on the couch posted:

yeah the funny part about making a game that tries to be a "simulator", or at least has simulation elements, is that sometimes you discover that what happened in real life turns out to have been a very unlikely event and when trying to replicate it using "historical" parameters (however dubious those initial conditions may be sometimes, sociological simulation is hard), it happens very rarely. Most people playing a game called Europa Universalis expect to see, for example, a dominant English/British colonial empire, which some may argue was the result of some unlikely and fortunate circumstances that may be hard to replicate in a game without just boosting the hell out of them. A bunch of weird poo poo happened in our timeline to get us where we are today and it may be hard to reliably reproduce that, depending on how gamey/simulationist you want to be
Yeah and its hard to satisfy everyone because I love that they have fixed up the rest of the world so much and colonial hegemony by the filthy Brits not being guaranteed is nice, but other people might not like it.

Sri.Theo
Apr 16, 2008


Thereís a question, given how global the game is now if Europa Universalis is even the best name. Munda Universalis?

Edgar Allen Ho
Apr 3, 2017


Quoth James Cameron,

"Nevermore"



Magna Mundi

TMMadman
Sep 9, 2003

Bat 'em up!




Sri.Theo posted:

There’s a question, given how global the game is now if Europa Universalis is even the best name. Munda Universalis?

Victoria 3

Mans
Sep 14, 2011

We have the dimension of an empire.


Torrannor posted:

I don't quite understand the problem. Of course there will be tons of DLC for CK3 or EUV to buy, but isn't it better to buy DLC for a new game instead of an old game where the mechanics just pile up and up and up and it's a total mess? Because if they don't make EUV, you will just continue to buy DLC for EUIV.

there's no guarantee, especially after seeing Leviathan, that EUV will be anything of worth.

I'd rather they simply stop piling on stuff on EUIV. It's (or was) a fun game and only needs to work out bugs and AI funkery to make it as perfect as it can be.

Roadie
Jun 30, 2013


Is that thing with republic admiral leaders with a bajillion monarch points still broken, and if so what's the easiest way to use it? I want to get in some variety of stupid gimmick run while I can.

Mans
Sep 14, 2011

We have the dimension of an empire.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUy2Mekbqhs

Cockblocktopus
Apr 18, 2009

Since the beginning of time, man has yearned to destroy the sun.



Roadie posted:

Is that thing with republic admiral leaders with a bajillion monarch points still broken, and if so what's the easiest way to use it? I want to get in some variety of stupid gimmick run while I can.

If you "opt in" to the most recent "beta" version on Steam (I think 1.31.0?) then it is. Milan has an event chain to flip to military republic (let your starting guy die heirless, flip to Ambrosian Republic, either go to war or have rebels -- you can probably attack Ferrara or Siena or Florence and hold your own, then let Sforza take over and flip you to military republic then STAY AS A MILITARY REPUBLIC NO MATTER WHAT). I think your first successor to Sforza will be meh points-wise but then just make sure you always have active generals and you'll be governed by a neverending line of 102 year olds with insane stats.

You can still draw a lovely ruler sometimes and you'll quickly run out of Diplo point uses (max out your mercantilism when you can't develop more). Once your development takes off you should be able to field a bunch of mercenaries simultaneously without losing money. You can probably keep a medium coalition scared -- since you're playing tall you're scarier to the AI coalition calculations then you'd think for it being 1490 and you only having 15 provinces.

It's honestly kind of tedious -- I haven't hit the Reformation and I've been playing on and off since the day the first hotfix came out -- but it's an interesting variation on the game that's more fun than just cheating in infinite points or starting at 32/32/32 tech. I think I've only had one ruler with a military stat in the hundreds but I've had plenty of diplo and admin stats over 999 (hundreds of millions for both categories; I think one of my rulers had an admin stat in the billions but past 1,000 it doesn't really matter).

Edgar Allen Ho
Apr 3, 2017


Quoth James Cameron,

"Nevermore"



I alt-tabbed after a few years as O'ahu to say "hey, game seems playable" and then it crashed when I tried to go back to EU4.

I appreciate O'ahu's turtle flag though. It's one of two places I've ever seen a wild sea turtle irl and the other one is Pensacola, Florida, a tag that must never exist

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MonsieurChoc
Oct 12, 2013

Every species can smell its own extinction.




I'm trying Majapahit but I need to save and qit to get that disaster going lol.

Is it possible for Sunda to not hate you at the start of the game?

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