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skasion
Feb 13, 2012

Why don't you perform zazen, facing a wall?


Sephyr posted:

So Timurids apparently went from being a weird horde without a steppe to a proper kingdom with tons of unhappy subjects. the Denmark of asia minor, you could say.

Any obvious strats for it now? Since we don't need to rush desperately to form Mughals (and indian provinces are out of coring reach at first), I guess snacking toward Qara Qonlyu while you integrate a couple of vassals is the way. They are all pretty unruly, though.

The first ten years are the hardest. I aggressively tried to reconquer my western cores and Iím not sure it was advisable. It got reasonably ugly for a while there; your vassal swarm is formidable if loyal but your own economic and manpower situation is less than ideal. So maybe the thing to do is keep Shah Rukh alive and relations with the vassals high till 1454 (make sure youíre using the iqta policy for vassal happiness as well). Then you can instantly integrate Fars, Transoxania and Khorasan because you already core all their provinces. Afghanistan can also be eaten quickly but not instantly. Eat Transoxania first because theyíre the strongest and will make the most trouble. Your starting heir not only loses the bonus to vassal happiness of Shah Rukh, heís also a babbling buffoon so slows down your integration of Afghanistan and Sistan.

I havenít tried this but based on my experience I would recommend not taking on Ajam until you have integrated Transoxania at least. You want to overwhelm them pretty quickly or QQ will probably dogpile Ajam and try to steal your cores. I donít think you need to fight extended war with QQ really, itís hard country and mostly not that good. Get back any cores they sniped and leave them to the mercy of the Ottos/Mamluks. Once you have your cores back you are likely to be strong enough to start feeling your way into North India. You should also be sure to clear out the minors on the south coast of the Caspian Sea and the minor at the head of the Persian gulf, theyíre weak with few likely allies and there are some nice trade goods to grab.

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skasion
Feb 13, 2012

Why don't you perform zazen, facing a wall?


Couple of other expansion related things not specifically about Timurids:

Drilling seems like a stealth buff to the AI: it essentially rewards an army for being passive; the more passively you play, the better the army gets. This is relatively easy for AI to achieve, whereas a player is frequently moving armies around. When I leave an army in one place, itís often because Iím looking to hit rebels as soon as they pop up, which is not a situation conducive to drill. Iíve already caught myself wishing there was some way to set armies to automatically drill if they meet the requirements: clicking the button every time is the kind of minor busywork where the AI will never forget to do it but I frequently will. Granted I made a pretty hectic start of Timurids, maybe itís easier to find time to drill with other nations, but I feel like my soldiers are still acting out the first verse of ďBe A ManĒ while everyone around me is in goose step. I integrate Transoxania and their army is literally ten times as drilled as any of mine.

So far I havenít noticed any ridiculously inappropriate Ming tributaries ó they have Japan, Korea, most of Indochina, the steppe guys to the immediate north and the near side of the Himalayas, but no Indian minors or anything west of Oirat.

I have noticed that Mingís gimmick of running out of manpower and rocking an almost all merc army like nothing hasnít changed, 100% of their infantry is mercs in 1472. I donít have the best view of them right now, but it also seems like increasing the reform cost doesnít really hurt them much: they still make back mandate very rapidly and theyíre simply too big for the slight penalty from sitting at 30 mandate for a bit to hurt them much. Maybe that will change as the game goes on, hard to tell whatís really going on over there when you canít see half of China.

White Coke
May 29, 2015


Sephyr posted:

So Timurids apparently went from being a weird horde without a steppe to a proper kingdom with tons of unhappy subjects. the Denmark of asia minor, you could say.

Any obvious strats for it now? Since we don't need to rush desperately to form Mughals (and indian provinces are out of coring reach at first), I guess snacking toward Qara Qonlyu while you integrate a couple of vassals is the way. They are all pretty unruly, though.

Going for Ajam while your vassals still love you, and hoping that Shah Rukh doesn't die to soon. I have a good run going on where he died while I was waiting for Ajam to make peace because I couldn't attack their ally Hormuz. I managed to get strong enough from absorbing most of Ajam that my vassals didn't rebel and I was able to integrate them all peacefully.

A Buttery Pastry posted:

Christian IV of Denmark should have been our Babur.

Wouldn't that mean he'd have lost Denmark to a weird theocracy?

A Buttery Pastry
Sep 4, 2011

Delicious and Informative!


White Coke posted:

Wouldn't that mean he'd have lost Denmark to a weird theocracy?
A small price to pay for a united Scandinavia.

Fister Roboto
Feb 21, 2008

Fully functional and programmed in multiple techniques.

skasion posted:

Couple of other expansion related things not specifically about Timurids:

Drilling seems like a stealth buff to the AI: it essentially rewards an army for being passive; the more passively you play, the better the army gets. This is relatively easy for AI to achieve, whereas a player is frequently moving armies around. When I leave an army in one place, itís often because Iím looking to hit rebels as soon as they pop up, which is not a situation conducive to drill. Iíve already caught myself wishing there was some way to set armies to automatically drill if they meet the requirements: clicking the button every time is the kind of minor busywork where the AI will never forget to do it but I frequently will. Granted I made a pretty hectic start of Timurids, maybe itís easier to find time to drill with other nations, but I feel like my soldiers are still acting out the first verse of ďBe A ManĒ while everyone around me is in goose step. I integrate Transoxania and their army is literally ten times as drilled as any of mine.

I haven't even touched the expansion yet and this makes perfect sense to me. The AI can micromanage to an insane degree, but for human players it's just adding more busy clicking for marginal bonuses.

TorakFade
Oct 3, 2006

I strongly disapprove

As the Ottomans, should I just be in constant war against everyone and blob like a madman for the first hundred years? Because it feels so good. It's 1480 and I am bordering the mamluks and hungary already, feeding my march Crimea some steppe land while waiting out truces.

Having a 6/2/2 heir I went for humanism as my first idea - looking forward to zero rebels ever and more accepted cultures.

skasion
Feb 13, 2012

Why don't you perform zazen, facing a wall?


TorakFade posted:

As the Ottomans, should I just be in constant war against everyone and blob like a madman for the first hundred years? Because it feels so good. It's 1480 and I am bordering the mamluks and hungary already, feeding my march Crimea some steppe land while waiting out truces.

Having a 6/2/2 heir I went for humanism as my first idea - looking forward to zero rebels ever and more accepted cultures.

Yeah basically. If youíre not currently invading Africa or Europe, try invading Asia! Though that may be less viable now with the Timurids changes.

Deltasquid
Apr 10, 2013

awww...
you guys made me ink!


THUNDERDOME


Hey guys, I have never played a game in Eastern Europe (weird, huh?) so I wanted to go with Hungary. The event chain made me a junior partner in the PU with Austria, though. Wasn't there a way for Hungary to come out dominant there? What's the best strategy for early game Hungary?

Butch Banner
Dec 14, 2006
The pinnacle of masculitinity

Sephyr posted:

So Timurids apparently went from being a weird horde without a steppe to a proper kingdom with tons of unhappy subjects. the Denmark of asia minor, you could say.

Any obvious strats for it now? Since we don't need to rush desperately to form Mughals (and indian provinces are out of coring reach at first), I guess snacking toward Qara Qonlyu while you integrate a couple of vassals is the way. They are all pretty unruly, though.

Skasion covered most of it from my one run with them, but putting your vassals on aggressive to drain their manpower was very helpful, so was staying at war with opms because I think rebellious vassals are less likely to get independence support while they're at war.

skasion
Feb 13, 2012

Why don't you perform zazen, facing a wall?


Butch Banner posted:

Skasion covered most of it from my one run with them, but putting your vassals on aggressive to drain their manpower was very helpful, so was staying at war with opms because I think rebellious vassals are less likely to get independence support while they're at war.

I didnít have any trouble with assholes supporting independence actually. Thank gently caress. I kept decent relations with the Mamluks and Ottos for just that reason though. The trick with aggressive is a good one, I forgot that.

skipThings
May 21, 2007

Tell me more about this
"Wireless fun-adaptor" you were speaking of.

Is the game for anyone else kind of unplayable without a better font mod, the base game ones is so incredibly blurry and thin

Fister Roboto
Feb 21, 2008

Fully functional and programmed in multiple techniques.

Deltasquid posted:

Hey guys, I have never played a game in Eastern Europe (weird, huh?) so I wanted to go with Hungary. The event chain made me a junior partner in the PU with Austria, though. Wasn't there a way for Hungary to come out dominant there? What's the best strategy for early game Hungary?

The event should always gives you the option to remain independent. As far as I'm aware there's no event that puts Austria in a union under you if that's what you mean.

Sheep
Jul 24, 2003


skasion posted:

Drilling seems like a stealth buff to the AI

Also worth mentioning that if you have armies drilling during wartime, keep an eye on them or the AI will beeline to them and completely wipe them out. I'm unsure if the AI actually has to deal with fog of war (gut feeling is no) since there are a couple of times I've been fighting like Oman or something and had them go straight to an army drilling up near the Caucasus which they shouldn't have normally had sight on.

This can also be exploited to lure the AI into traps they wouldn't otherwise normally fall for, for example keeping enemy stacks occupied while you murder their reinforcements.

Koramei
Nov 11, 2011

I just pretend to be nice.


Lipstick Apathy

Sheep posted:

I'm unsure if the AI actually has to deal with fog of war (gut feeling is no)

They're supposed to act like they have to, even though since it's an AI they can obviously know everything at all times. There could have been other reasons for them rushing the Caucasus, like trying to get back past your main army on the front lines and annoy your rear or something, without realizing there was an army back there at all

Or it coulda been bugged out and they did see it, I dunno.

Deltasquid
Apr 10, 2013

awww...
you guys made me ink!


THUNDERDOME


Fister Roboto posted:

The event should always gives you the option to remain independent. As far as I'm aware there's no event that puts Austria in a union under you if that's what you mean.

Yeah, I thought getting the Habsburg guy would put Austria under me. I vaguely recalled that if Hungary is the player, the PU is reversed. Isn't that also how it works with Castile and Aragon?

I'll restart and take the option to stay independent, but I'm wondering if this means that Austria will hate me forever.

Dr. Video Games 0031
Jul 16, 2004



The AI is ~supposed to~ pretend like it can't see your troops, but it can, and they absolutely will react to troop movements that should be unknown to them. Paradox says they try to make it so they don't, but all of my recent experience indicates that the AI absolutely does not give a gently caress about what they're "supposed to" do and will react to hidden troop movements every time. So in effect, fog of war is a one-way player handicap in EU4.

This is less of a big deal than it seems because the fort system restricting their movement and the fact that they're just kinda bad.

Dr. Video Games 0031 fucked around with this message at Nov 17, 2017 around 21:30

Gravity Cant Apple
Jun 25, 2011

guys its just like if you had an apple with a straw n you poked the apple though wit it n a pebbl hadnt dropped through itd stop straw insid the apple because gravity cant apple


Deltasquid posted:

Yeah, I thought getting the Habsburg guy would put Austria under me. I vaguely recalled that if Hungary is the player, the PU is reversed. Isn't that also how it works with Castile and Aragon?

I'll restart and take the option to stay independent, but I'm wondering if this means that Austria will hate me forever.

I played a quick Hungary to Croatia run before the new DLC to grab the Krabater achievement and the only option to stay independent does make Austria slightly pissed at you but if you're allied they won't drop the alliance or anything. Just don't count on them to actually come to your aid in wars though, they are quite perfidious.

Dr. Video Games 0031
Jul 16, 2004



Man, the Rassids have some hella good ideas but their start is brutal. Just had to end a run after my first war had me besieging a fort for 2 straight years of literally consecutive status quo and disease outbreaks. I hope I don't have to tell you how unlikely that is. There's a lot of zeroes after that decimal. I really wish I was kidding.

Ignorant Hick
Mar 26, 2010

I tried, Shepard.


I've been trying out the expansion as Ardabil and I think I've gotten off the ground to the point where I stand a good chance of forming Persia. Been a lot of trial and error, probably over a dozen attempts including the times I would restart the game if Qara hated me at the start. I've gotten all my cores back, took some provinces off of Shirvan and have reduced Ajam to a opm using Qara and Mushashan bodies. Still feels like one bad war will wreck me but my plan right now is to use my allies to take the provinces I need from the no vassal Timurids then backstab Qara once the Ottomans come for them.

Has anyone been watching how the Ottomans handle going east in their games? Anything I should be worrying about?

Dr. Video Games 0031
Jul 16, 2004



Also, can confirm, drilling during wartime is a crazy enemy troop magnet, no matter how far into your fog of war you are, or how bad of an idea it is to march on your position. The AI will hone in on drilling troops with reckless abandon.

David Corbett
Feb 6, 2008

Courage, my friends; 'tis not too late to build a better world.


Just starting my very first real Ironman game after 200 hours of play. France, eight years in. I built a doom-blob out of Castile, Savoy, Brittany, Burgundy and Provence waiting to pounce on les rosbifs. Unfortunately, the surrender of Maine didnít kick in until September 1449, and at that point the Anglo dogs elected to surrender the city in peace. Out of sheer frustration, I declared war on them alone. Fortunately, I managed to fight off both Portugal and perfidious Albion, who have now been ejected from the glorious realm of la France, except for Calais: itís next. I inadvertantly ended the War of the Roses when AlenÁon turned into a main Yorkist stronghold. (Why? How?)

Castile PUíd Aragon, but not before I allied and married them - so Iíd best hold on to that alliance as well as I can, since theyíll be a powerful rival. Burgundy ended up swallowed by Austria. Once Iíve finished taking Calais and subjugating Brittany, Provence and Savoy, theyíll have to be next.

AnoHito
May 8, 2014

~DarK MagiC~


Dr. Video Games 0031 posted:

Also, can confirm, drilling during wartime is a crazy enemy troop magnet, no matter how far into your fog of war you are, or how bad of an idea it is to march on your position. The AI will hone in on drilling troops with reckless abandon.

If I had to guess, it's probably something to do with them thinking they're troops that just lost a battle and assuming the AI behavior of chasing down retreating troops.

Another Person
Oct 20, 2010





I have played two campaigns since the DLC dropped, and both have been really loving weird. In the first I played Qara and the HRE got dismantled by Bohemia. In the second one nobody embraced Colonialism except England and me (Mamluks) until everyone was sitting with 80% total tech penalty.

Fister Roboto
Feb 21, 2008

Fully functional and programmed in multiple techniques.

Dr. Video Games 0031 posted:

Also, can confirm, drilling during wartime is a crazy enemy troop magnet, no matter how far into your fog of war you are, or how bad of an idea it is to march on your position. The AI will hone in on drilling troops with reckless abandon.

If being deep inside your territory actually had any negative impact on enemy troops, this would be really exploitable.

uPen
Jan 25, 2010

Zu Rodina!

Fister Roboto posted:

If being deep inside your territory actually had any negative impact on enemy troops, this would be really exploitable.

Dragging ming conscripts into the steppe to get trashed by horde horses is a valuable trick.

RabidWeasel
Aug 4, 2007

Cultures thrive on their myths and legends...and snuggles!


I might have just got lucky with the Timurids not exactly thriving but forming Persia seems much easier now if you get there quickly. The Timurids (any not any of their vassals) hold most of the provinces you need so if you catch them while most of their vassals are disloyal you can just completely ignore the vassal territory and bait the Timurid armies into attacking into mountains. You no longer need to fight QQ before forming Persia, so they can be a decent ally.

Dance Officer
May 4, 2017
Probation
Can't post for 2 hours!


RabidWeasel posted:

I might have just got lucky with the Timurids not exactly thriving but forming Persia seems much easier now if you get there quickly. The Timurids (any not any of their vassals) hold most of the provinces you need so if you catch them while most of their vassals are disloyal you can just completely ignore the vassal territory and bait the Timurid armies into attacking into mountains. You no longer need to fight QQ before forming Persia, so they can be a decent ally.

Forming Persia was not particularly hard to begin with. Start as Timurids, release and play as Persia.

The non-joke option was to start as QQ and eat through Timurids as it was tearing itself apart. Not exactly difficult.

RabidWeasel
Aug 4, 2007

Cultures thrive on their myths and legends...and snuggles!


Dance Officer posted:

Forming Persia was not particularly hard to begin with. Start as Timurids, release and play as Persia.

The non-joke option was to start as QQ and eat through Timurids as it was tearing itself apart. Not exactly difficult.

I should have said while starting as a minor, but in any case QQ was always a poor choice for forming Persia as they were (and still are) disallowed from forming without changing their government.

Groogy
Jun 12, 2014

Tanks are kinda wasted on invading the USSR

AnoHito posted:

If I had to guess, it's probably something to do with them thinking they're troops that just lost a battle and assuming the AI behavior of chasing down retreating troops.

Pretty sure it is this, you get the lowest possible morale so the AI is going to go "Oh boy wiping time!"

Dance Officer
May 4, 2017
Probation
Can't post for 2 hours!


RabidWeasel posted:

I should have said while starting as a minor, but in any case QQ was always a poor choice for forming Persia as they were (and still are) disallowed from forming without changing their government.

This was more an annoyance than an actual problem, Imo, and the other options were not particularly shiny or easy (outside of releasing as Timmy's)

Poil
Mar 17, 2007



I tried several times as QQ but since I'm so bad it only ended with

Butch Banner
Dec 14, 2006
The pinnacle of masculitinity

David Corbett posted:

Just starting my very first real Ironman game after 200 hours of play. France, eight years in. I built a doom-blob out of Castile, Savoy, Brittany, Burgundy and Provence waiting to pounce on les rosbifs. Unfortunately, the surrender of Maine didnít kick in until September 1449, and at that point the Anglo dogs elected to surrender the city in peace. Out of sheer frustration, I declared war on them alone. Fortunately, I managed to fight off both Portugal and perfidious Albion, who have now been ejected from the glorious realm of la France, except for Calais: itís next. I inadvertantly ended the War of the Roses when AlenÁon turned into a main Yorkist stronghold. (Why? How?)

You want this to happen though, if you declare you can use the reconquest CB, having England declare for Maine just means youll have to fight them down for a humiliation and alliance breaking, then declaring again when the truce is up. As long as they dont ally Austria you should be fine since the english ai really suck at fighting in the continent.

(ed: you'll take way less aggressive expansion with the reconquest CB than with grabbing them in an english unifiation war)

Drone
Aug 22, 2003

How can you have a yellow alert in Spacedock?


So despite it being part of the game for literal ever, I haven't ever once picked a side in the Thirty Years War. I'm doing a Denmark run right now, annexed Holstein/Norway/Sweden, and went Protestant. When I joined the Protestant League, I was immediately given leadership. Is there any way to... not have leadership? I can't handle that kind of responsibility

Edit: both France and Russia are in the Protestant League as well, so I know leadership can't be based on whoever is the strongest nation.

Drone fucked around with this message at Nov 18, 2017 around 12:21

tombom
Mar 8, 2006


What are the exact requirements for getting the promote button for your advisors? They're my own culture and religion but the button just doesn't exist most of the time.

really queer Christmas
Apr 22, 2014



Drone posted:

So despite it being part of the game for literal ever, I haven't ever once picked a side in the Thirty Years War. I'm doing a Denmark run right now, annexed Holstein/Norway/Sweden, and went Protestant. When I joined the Protestant League, I was immediately given leadership. Is there any way to... not have leadership? I can't handle that kind of responsibility

Edit: both France and Russia are in the Protestant League as well, so I know leadership can't be based on whoever is the strongest nation.

iirc, leadership is given to like the strongest Protestant at first, but has priority to switch to a protestant elector. So France and Russia arenít Protestant and thus canít be leaders, and if you donít want to be leader try and get an elector to be Protestant.

oddium
Feb 20, 2006


being of the leader of the protestant league is insanely good because it means the war will actually fire instead of petering out after 50 years of cold war

RabidWeasel
Aug 4, 2007

Cultures thrive on their myths and legends...and snuggles!


Sanction holy war is my new favourite thing in the whole game, allahu akbar, who the gently caress needs diplomats

Groke
Jul 27, 2007
New Adventures In Mom Strength

Well, it's still possible to do the Ottoman -> flip to Orthodox-> form Romania-> shift to Greek and reform Byzantium thing. Completely disgusting, and fun.

Detheros
Apr 11, 2010

Great!


God I love being the Pope, you have so much cash and that you can do this and be flooded with MP forever.

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David Corbett
Feb 6, 2008

Courage, my friends; 'tis not too late to build a better world.


Butch Banner posted:

You want this to happen though, if you declare you can use the reconquest CB, having England declare for Maine just means youll have to fight them down for a humiliation and alliance breaking, then declaring again when the truce is up. As long as they dont ally Austria you should be fine since the english ai really suck at fighting in the continent.

(ed: you'll take way less aggressive expansion with the reconquest CB than with grabbing them in an english unifiation war)

Can you tell that I donít play as France often? Fortunately, the reconquest CB worked great and the English arenít even considered a GP anymore.

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