Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us money per month for bills, and since we don't believe in showing ads to our users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
 
  • Locked thread
Magic Hate Ball
May 6, 2007

ha ha ha!
you've already paid for this
There's a lot of "agree to disagree" happening around this movie.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Jeffrey of YOSPOS
Dec 22, 2005

GET LOSE, YOU CAN'T COMPARE WITH MY POWERS
For it to be redemption you have to walk in the other direction - dixon merely turned around and stopped getting worse by the end of this one.

wizardofloneliness
Dec 30, 2008

Uncle Boogeyman posted:

as someone who has seen some pretty vicious mother-daughter screaming matches irl, i completely bought it

i similarly saw someone on twitter saying "the word 'oval office' doesn't get thrown around in family arguments" which, again, maybe you just haven't seen the caliber of family arguments i have.

Yeah, I had the same opinion about that moment. The absolute worst, most vicious fights I’ve had have always been with my mother. In my experience, family arguments have the potential to be nasty in a way most other relationships can’t really measure up to. And this is from people I actually get along with!

Uncle Boogeyman
Jul 22, 2007

Magic Hate Ball posted:

For this movie it's a redemption - there are loads and loads of people who never approach that level of self-awareness and desire to change. If you approach redemption as some kind of epic biblical saved-eternal concept, then no, he does not experience redemption, but within the limitations of the film's narrative he absolutely does.

this is a tautology. it counts as a redemption for this film for no other reason than because you say so.

granted you're not the only one that came to this conclusion, but it seems like people came to it because of the expectations they brought in for how these movies are supposed to work, not on the evidence of the movie itself.

Uncle Boogeyman fucked around with this message at 00:09 on Jan 24, 2018

Franchescanado
Feb 23, 2013

If it wasn't for disappointment
I wouldn't have any appointment

Grimey Drawer

Magic Hate Ball posted:

There's a lot of "agree to disagree" happening around this movie.

While that's true, I enjoy your thoughts and posts in general and I like that we're engaging in this debate

Uncle Boogeyman
Jul 22, 2007

yeah for all I've bitched about the controversy surrounding the movie, part of me is glad for it. it's a button-pushing movie, it wouldn't be very good at that if it didn't push people's buttons.

i do agree with the criticism that the black characters could've been more fleshed out. i really wanted more of the guy that helps put up the billboards, granted he's tangential to the story but i thought he could've been a cool character.

Franchescanado
Feb 23, 2013

If it wasn't for disappointment
I wouldn't have any appointment

Grimey Drawer

Uncle Boogeyman posted:

i do agree with the criticism that the black characters could've been more fleshed out. i really wanted more of the guy that helps put up the billboards, granted he's tangential to the story but i thought he could've been a cool character.

Yeah, I was hoping we'd get more of both him and Mildred's friend once they met each other, and I'm sad that the story didn't include them more.

Jeffrey of YOSPOS
Dec 22, 2005

GET LOSE, YOU CAN'T COMPARE WITH MY POWERS

Uncle Boogeyman posted:

yeah for all I've bitched about the controversy surrounding the movie, part of me is glad for it. it's a button-pushing movie, it wouldn't be very good at that if it didn't push people's buttons.

i do agree with the criticism that the black characters could've been more fleshed out. i really wanted more of the guy that helps put up the billboards, granted he's tangential to the story but i thought he could've been a cool character.
Yeah I didn't remember this until now but I really did expect more billboard guy.

Uncle Boogeyman
Jul 22, 2007

Franchescanado posted:

Yeah, I was hoping we'd get more of both him and Mildred's friend once they met each other, and I'm sad that the story didn't include them more.

it would've been a bit of a tangent but no more so than Peter Dinklage's subplot really, and probably would've bolstered the main plot more.

Magic Hate Ball
May 6, 2007

ha ha ha!
you've already paid for this

Uncle Boogeyman posted:

this is a tautology. it counts as a redemption for this film for no other reason than because you say so.

granted you're not the only one that came to this conclusion, but it seems like people came to it because of the expectations they brought in for how these movies are supposed to work, not on the evidence of the movie itself.

It’s a fairly literal arc of redemption - he undergoes a change of values that saves him from a life of sin.

Uncle Boogeyman
Jul 22, 2007

Magic Hate Ball posted:

It’s a fairly literal arc of redemption - he undergoes a change of values that saves him from a life of sin.

the second part seems pretty up in the air

Hat Thoughts
Jul 27, 2012
I think McDonagh has no idea what small towns r like & his weird abstraction where all the pivotal characters r essentially celebrities that every1 reads gossip mags about hurts the story.

Magic Hate Ball
May 6, 2007

ha ha ha!
you've already paid for this

Uncle Boogeyman posted:

the second part seems pretty up in the air

Sure, but that's where the earnest drama and dark humor meet (which, for me, doesn't work) - she's got steely perseverance and he's learning lessons about empathy, but they're both pushing all their energy in a terrible, ugly direction, which wavers at the end.

Guy Mann
Mar 28, 2016

by Lowtax

Magic Hate Ball posted:

There's a lot of "agree to disagree" happening around this movie.

The amount of backlash surrounding this movie that most people never even heard of until the Hot Takes started circulating on the internet a week ago is absolutely insane.

Magic Hate Ball
May 6, 2007

ha ha ha!
you've already paid for this

Guy Mann posted:

The amount of backlash surrounding this movie that most people never even heard of until the Hot Takes started circulating on the internet a week ago is absolutely insane.

It's really entertaining.

Escobarbarian
Jun 18, 2004


Grimey Drawer
I’ve honestly never seen a backlash quite so rooted in people’s personal politics and that has so little to do with the actual thing that’s supposedly so problematic.

Bottom Liner
Feb 15, 2006


a specific vein of lasagna
It's almost like we live in a hyper politically charged world right now and people are really sensitive to the way race relations are presented in movies because of so many hosed up things happening all around them. The movie is obviously aware of the environment it exists in, but it's up to you if you think it handles that well or not (and doesn't make others snowflakes if they disagree).

Guy Mann
Mar 28, 2016

by Lowtax

Bottom Liner posted:

It's almost like we live in a hyper politically charged world right now and people are really sensitive to the way race relations are presented in movies because of so many hosed up things happening all around them. The movie is obviously aware of the environment it exists in, but it's up to you if you think it handles that well or not (and doesn't make others snowflakes if they disagree).

If that was the case then you'd think people would be able to channel their impotent fury into something more constructive.

Bottom Liner
Feb 15, 2006


a specific vein of lasagna
I don't know the video or comments you're referencing but it sounded like hostility towards any criticism of the movie so that's what I was responding to. Sorry if that's not the case.

Disgusting Coward
Feb 17, 2014
I just sat through MOVIE ABOUT HOW BLIND HOSTILITY, NO MATTER HOW RIGHTEOUS, MIGHT BE BAD FOR YOU? and I am fuckin' DISGUSTED that they didn't have the racist guy die and all the black people give a speech about race relations and maybe Donald Trump on fire.

Disgusting Coward fucked around with this message at 04:30 on Jan 24, 2018

Bottom Liner
Feb 15, 2006


a specific vein of lasagna
Who said anything of the sort?

Guy Mann
Mar 28, 2016

by Lowtax
Your average thinkpiece writer would probably have a conniption if they saw how Americans were portrayed in In Bruges lmao

LadyPictureShow
Nov 18, 2005

Success!



The movie has four six Oscar nominations: Sam Rockwell and Woody Harrelson are both up for best supporting actor, Frances McDormand for best actress, and best picture. E: I forgot best editing and best original screenplay.

So of course, cue the hot takes:

Three Billboards is a lazy, problematic film which didn't deserve an Oscar nomination in any way

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/three-billboards-outside-ebbing-missouri-oscar-nominations-racism-frances-mcdormand-a8174431.html%3famp

quote:

A story which should be about a woman rapidly becomes a story about a racist policeman's white redemption. And this is what we're saying is award-worthy in 2018?

LadyPictureShow fucked around with this message at 18:33 on Jan 24, 2018

sponges
Sep 15, 2011

That article is frustrating to read

Solitair
Feb 18, 2014

TODAY'S GONNA BE A GOOD MOTHERFUCKIN' DAY!!!

sponges posted:

That article is frustrating to read

At least it reminded me to see The Florida Project.

Franchescanado
Feb 23, 2013

If it wasn't for disappointment
I wouldn't have any appointment

Grimey Drawer

Solitair posted:

At least it reminded me to see The Florida Project.

I couldn't stop talking about and recommending this movie weeks after seeing it. I liked it more than 3 Billboards.

Escobarbarian
Jun 18, 2004


Grimey Drawer

Bottom Liner posted:

Who said anything of the sort?

And then two posts below this the answer appeared lmao

Saw this for the third time today and I’ll grant that the black characters, especially Denise and Jerome, could have had a little more development. But other than that I still think the whole backlash is absolutely insane and anyone who uses the word “redemption” wrt Dixon is a complete dipshit

Magic Hate Ball
May 6, 2007

ha ha ha!
you've already paid for this

Escobarbarian posted:

But other than that I still think the whole backlash is absolutely insane and anyone who uses the word “redemption” wrt Dixon is a complete dipshit

:nsamad:

Kawabata
Apr 20, 2014

You plebians just don't know what epic literature is. You should try reading Stephanie Meyer, E.L. James, Dan Brown, or Ayn Rand.

sponges posted:

That article is frustrating to read

"Why is it that even when telling the stories of women, conflict is centered round the white male struggle?"

did the loving retard who wrote the article even watch the movie in its entirety

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

frenton
Aug 15, 2005

devil soup

Gavok posted:

The scene that stays with me the most is the sudden cough bit. There's all this tension and we see Hayes and Willougby inch towards becoming enemies, only for this sudden moment that brings them back to earth. It's both relieving and incredibly sad to watch.

The way Mildred reacts to it in such an empathetic, human way was really moving. This movie did a great job of fleshing nuance to characters that seemed like they would be archetype caricatures in the beginning.

bewilderment
Nov 22, 2007
man what



The real moral of the story is that rural dying towns are irredeemable, with bad people or people willing to stand by and do nothing outweighing the good. For every Willoughby who is genuinely trying to make the best of a bad situation and do right by his family and the town with the crappy resources he has, there's a bunch of messed up unlikable folks who nobody would miss if they were gone.

There are many dying rural towns, and they are best left to die, and good luck to those that manage to escape that death for better areas and better people.

Uncle Boogeyman
Jul 22, 2007

bewilderment posted:

The real moral of the story is that rural dying towns are irredeemable, with bad people or people willing to stand by and do nothing outweighing the good. For every Willoughby who is genuinely trying to make the best of a bad situation and do right by his family and the town with the crappy resources he has, there's a bunch of messed up unlikable folks who nobody would miss if they were gone.

There are many dying rural towns, and they are best left to die, and good luck to those that manage to escape that death for better areas and better people.

now THIS is a hot take

Maarak
May 23, 2007

"Go for it!"
Was Willoughby genuinely trying to help? He seemed to content to let his police station be a refuge for shitheads with no interest in justice while he lived in a nice country house and tended to his horses.

Uncle Boogeyman
Jul 22, 2007

Maarak posted:

Was Willoughby genuinely trying to help? He seemed to content to let his police station be a refuge for shitheads with no interest in justice while he lived in a nice country house and tended to his horses.

He has a face-turn midway through of course but let's also not forget that his plan to get Mildred tied up in legal fees so she can't pay for the billboards was pretty devious

resurgam40
Jul 22, 2007

Battler, the literal stupidest man on earth. Why are you even here, Battler, why did you come back to this place so you could fuck literally everything up?

Magic Hate Ball posted:

It’s a fairly literal arc of redemption - he undergoes a change of values that saves him from a life of sin.

Does he? I dunno, especially in regard to the note the movie ended on.

I saw this movie myself a little while ago-I was with my mom and step dad; mom loved it and step-dad really liked it too- me, I thought I loved it, but thinking about it more and setting it against McDonagh's other work, I think I've cooled to really liking it. Part of the reason I've cooled is the treatment of Dixon*, however... to call his arc through the story one of "redemption" seems off, because McDonagh doesn't really do redemption, as the term is understood (at least in cinema). Thinking about mainstream movies, how does a redemption arc go down? As Franchescanado says, it usually involves a great big action in which the sinner endures great pain for his sin, or for the people who used to despise him, and then comes out triumphant at great cost, right? To show the audience that they suffer, and through that suffering prove the redemption of the sinner? Than never happens here, not for Dixon, or for anyone, and they all could use one. (And no, I don't see starting a bar fight with a suspect in order to obtain his DNA for evidence as an equivalent act, as it didn't come to anything, didn't get him back on the force, and really consisted of things he should have been doing anyway rather than any superhuman feat.) And they don't happen because McDonagh doesn't like them.

I'm only speaking from experience with his works, I've never actually met and talked to McDonagh... but it's always seemed to me that he thinks a lot about the idea of sin and redemption, and is uncomfortable with the idea of great big cinematic acts that represent the purging of wrongs, real or imagined. I mean, I think we all would like to think that the bad things we've done in our lives might be forgiven if we suffer enough or perform that one great act that makes it all better, but it doesn't really work that way, does it? It's a lot more complicated than merely wanting to be a better person, and that's why McDonagh strenuously avoids such grand, symbolic, easily rewarded acts- not just in this movie, but in all of his works, he withholds a quick and easy redemption because it's never been that quick and easy for anyone in real life. So beyond the black humor he likes to pepper in when he can, McDonagh's works are about struggle- people who have committed violent, irredeemable acts through anger, ignorance or negligence that bring them up short and that they spend the rest of the film trying to reconcile or come to terms with....or in the case of Calvary, a good and decent man continually blamed for something he hasn't done, and who eventually sticks to his guns, stands by what he knows is right and true, and then dies anyway, murdered by another person consumed by anger and not knowing what else to do about it. And just as Mildred finds no release from her rage and guilt in any of her actions in the film, the murderer finds no release from his pain in this murder- the last shot in the movie is his face, being confronted by the daughter of his victim. There's no vindication, relief, or happiness there; he just looks...empty. (Calvary is real good, y'all.)

Just my two cents... although I do agree with the criticisms that there could have been more representations of people of color that aren't stereotypes. And less stereotypes generally, although it didn't really bother me.


*Given who he is and his role in the story, he really should have gone to jail or seen more of a comeuppance, and if the point of the movie had been as some say a commentary on the system and played the "both sides" card, I would have hated the movie, but there is something deeper going on here, and something tells me that McDonagh lack of any real punishment for a violent racist is an intended part of it.

e: Dammit all! One of these days, I'll remember to check iMDB every time I try to talk about a movie, but today isn't that day...

resurgam40 fucked around with this message at 23:01 on Jan 25, 2018

Escobarbarian
Jun 18, 2004


Grimey Drawer
Great post! Just to say McDonagh is the director’s surname. McDormand is the lead actress :)

Magic Hate Ball
May 6, 2007

ha ha ha!
you've already paid for this

resurgam40 posted:

Does he? I dunno, especially in regard to the note the movie ended on.

A character can be both redeemed and misguided - Mildred is a chaotic flywheel of insane spite and he's suckered in by her desperate, unhealthy need for revenge (the broad point, again, being that people need to let the past be and not punish others for something they had no control over), but he does start as an overtly racist cop (he literally tortures black people) and, triggered by Willoughby's letter pleading him to "give up hate" as well as the scene where Red turns the other cheek and feeds him orange juice, vows to do right. It's an arc of redemption that would make Victor Hugo blush - that it unfortunately carries over into brutish eye-for-eye bloodthirst is the complication that comes with his association with Mildred (a theme that runs through the movie - actions and pride frustrate each other) and even at the end they both seem to be wavering.

Leatherhead
Jul 3, 2006

For the Angel of Death spread his wings on the blast,
And breathed in the face of the foe as he passed;
And the eyes of the sleepers waxed deadly and chill,
And their hearts but once heaved, and for ever grew still

Escobarbarian posted:

Great post! Just to say McDonagh is the director’s surname. McDormand is the lead actress :)

And not to pile on, but Calvary and Three Billboards aren't by the same person. Calvary was written and directed by Martin McDonagh's older brother, John Michael McDonagh.

there wolf
Jan 11, 2015

by Fluffdaddy
Just saw this and I'm still processing, but I wanted to say that the soundtrack really worked for me. Fit the scenes well and added to the overall tone of resigned pain the whole film carried. Maybe that's just cause moody folk music is my jam, but when even the Abba song is about loss and change I have to appreciate the attention to detail.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

am0kgonzo
Jun 18, 2010

Punkin Spunkin posted:

The white trash dropping slurs every other line made me kind of uncomfortable.

lmao

  • Locked thread