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BSam
Nov 24, 2012

muscles like this! posted:

In Bruges and Seven Psychopaths are much more comedic than this one. There's still some pathos (like the reason why they're hiding out in Bruges is bleak) but things are more often than not played for jokes.

All three are great films. I just finished watchign 3billboards and now i don't know how to feel.


Feel like I should add that his brothers films are also great. second only to his. (calvary, the guard)

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cptn_dr
Sep 7, 2011

Seven for beauty that blossoms and dies


Calvary is even more bleak than Three Billboards. Absolutely worth a watch, but Jesus Christ it's not a fun film.

Punkin Spunkin
Jan 1, 2010
https://www.usatoday.com/story/life...scar/977024001/
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/white-critics-three-billboards-racism_us_5a3135eae4b091ca268479f3
http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/la-et-golden-globes-2018-nominations-three-billboards-director-martin-1513009970-htmlstory.html

to touch on this a lil more...I liked Three Billboards (still enough to put it in my top 10 2017) but I still genuinely find it less enjoyable and bleaker and more unsympathetic than mother! which is saying a lot. At least you feel for Jennifer Lawrence in mother! whereas every single character in Three Billboards is for the most part repugnant. I guess I live in a bubble, a lot of us do, but we don't humanize people who drop friend of the family and human being every other line. They don't deserve that.
of course, that was the point. just like the torment that was mother! so I cut McDonagh way more slack than I would Tarantino

but I can't deny agreeing with a lot of this. the movie made me squirm and I basically wanted every character to die painfully. again, I guess that was the point...but...yeah it was uncomfortable being the only PoC watching this in theaters while the white audience chortled.
https://psmag.com/social-justice/three-billboards-bad-on-race

quote:

During the "friend of the family torturing" exchange between Dixon and Hayes, everyone in the theater around me laughed. It was, of course, supposed to be comic relief. I was the only black person in the theater, lured to the film by its glowing reviews—at the time of this writing, it holds a rating of 93 percent on Rotten Tomatoes, boosted by several notices that gush about how the film is a dark but honest look at humanity and grief. I haven't seen many reviews mention the friend of the family-torturing gag. I haven't seen any review that asks about the joke's purpose, or who the punchline might be serving. The joke is that the white cop who tortures black people is trying to stop calling them niggers. Or maybe the joke is that McDormand, the righteously angry white protagonist, has a black friend (one of two black people we see in the town) but still thinks provoking a joke about niggers is funny. Or maybe the joke is that if we got rid of every racist police officer, we'd have no police at all—according to the white police chief.

In the conversation about being The Only One in the Room, we mainly talk about black people in professional settings. I think about it in those moments, of course, but I also think about it in movie theaters, particularly when I'm at a movie that uses race as a narrative vehicle—a movie that uses black people as part of a storytelling device, but doesn't cater to black people or show the faces of (m)any black people onscreen.

I imagine, then, that perhaps the problem of Three Billboards is one of who it is being made for: the type of people who might laugh at an extended gag about friend of the family torturing in the first act while looking forward to the redemption of a racist and abusive police officer in the third.

....

I'm interested in how much people are asked to invest in the interior of racists. It doesn't take much work to see how—in our actual lives, not just in movies—Americans are not asked to invest in the same way in the interior of the marginalized, particularly after the marginalized have died. I didn't know why I should care about the interior complexities of Dixon. After what I watched of him and after what I knew of him, I was so uninvested in the character that I had zero interest in complicating him. I was more interested, for example, in the interior of the woman he busted on a bogus drug charge—a woman presented as one of just two black people in town, who seems loyal to McDormand's character and interested in protecting her at all costs. There are Jason Dixons everywhere.

It is also worth mentioning that race didn't really need to be a topic in Three Billboards at all, especially given that writer-director Martin McDonagh handles the topic so clumsily, and never really sees it through. Black people in this movie largely exist as victims, seen and unseen, of the town's violence, and as I watched I found myself wondering why they existed there at all. As a final point of hilarity, the only two black people we see in the town end up on a date together after laying eyes on each other for a few seconds. The movie didn't need racial provocation to get its point across, and McDonagh clearly wasn't the writer to handle it anyway. In this instance, I would have gladly bowed to a landscape bereft of black.

this doesn't even bring up the comical SUDDENLY THIRD ACT BLACK POLICE CHIEF IN BIGOTED 99% WHITE SMALL TOWN which made me immediately roll my eyes (almost as much as the deer). felt like McDonagh just inserting a character for validation.

Punkin Spunkin fucked around with this message at 21:00 on Jan 3, 2018

Franchescanado
Feb 23, 2013

If it wasn't for disappointment
I wouldn't have any appointment

Grimey Drawer

Punkin Spunkin posted:

whereas every single character in Three Billboards is for the most part repugnant. I guess I live in a bubble, a lot of us do, but we don't humanize people who drop friend of the family and human being every other line. They don't deserve that.
of course, that was the point. just like the torment that was mother! so I cut McDonagh way more slack than I would Tarantino

While I agree with the criticisms you've quoted here, as someone who's lived in the South my entire life, and who's traveled quite a bit and talked to many people from all walks of life due to work, people still quite regularly drop those discriminatory words all the time.

Quick anecdote: I was on a trip with a large group of people, some of which were close friends, but the majority were friends of friends. I'm from Florida, some were from Alabama, some from North Carolina, there were several Australians, and a couple of people were from California. My best friend was the only black person there (and as a side note, he is adopted and both his parents are white), everyone else was white, except for a girl who's father is Mexican. Anyway, we're all playing a drinking game, and it's getting heated because we're all competitive, when one of the girls flat out says she is "playing like bunch of niggers", or something like that. This was the girl from California. Up until this point, she would be the last person you would assume to drop this remark: she was a well-spoken pediatric nurse that worked at a hospital in North Carolina in area mainly made of up of minorities. My black friend immediately looked shocked, the game came to abrupt halt, and everyone was uncomfortable. The girl left the table crying from embarrassment, and me and my friend went to confront her about it and talk it out. She basically spent the entire night apologizing, claiming that that wasn't her, that that's not how she normally talked, etc. But, the thing is, she still said it, as if it were safe for her to say.

My point is, racism doesn't really work in a way you can just write off a person, nor does it come in the stereotypical package of a redneck from Missouri or Alabama, etc. I've been in meetings with people who, thinking they were in a comfort zone, said homophobic or racist poo poo, not knowing that many of my friends are of the LGBQT+ community, or that many of my close friends aren't white. I've had students tell me, as their teacher, homophobic or racist poo poo. I've heard prospective students, trying to get into the school I worked at, trying to impress me, drop racist or homophobic slurs, and these are international institutes. In the story above, my friend could have easily called her a racist bitch and had been done with it; instead, we went and talked to her and he explained how what she said is really hosed up, and they worked it out. Is that great? No, it shouldn't even be a thing that has to be explained, but that's our world.

To relate this to the film, I felt a lot of the subtext was that Dixon's a racist not because he just hates black people or other minorities, but because he was taught to hate black people and be racist by his alcoholic mother. He doesn't have a father, he spends much of the movie trying to impress a father figure, and he also has to stand-in as his mother's partner because she's the only love he really has, that's his family. If you're a child trying to get some form of attention or validation from a parent, and the way to do that is to beat up the blacks or hispanics because she hates them, it's probably going to happen. There's also the fact that he isn't the only racist on the police force, and so not only is it within a comfort zone of being able to say and do these things, but it's the normality. For him to "be a cop", or a detective, as is his dream, he must reflect what he thinks a cop is, or what he thinks Willoughby wants him to be. Dixon is a people-pleaser, and wants to be "right", but also doesn't have a personal morality, he gets it from the people he is around. Once Willoughby's gone, and his career as a police officer is gone, and his maternal bond is breaking, he turns to the NEXT authority (who also happens to be a maternal figure), Mildred.

With the conversation with Mildred confronting Dixon about torturing blacks, I don't think the humor is that they're saying the n-word to each other, it's that she's loving with him on his own level and trying to goad him into a false move--such as violence or incriminating language, etc.-- and Dixon, rather than pick up that she's insulting him for torturing black people, he instead tries to debate semantics with her. Even then, it's the darkest humor, and I think it's even calling out those who laugh at the joke in the same way Dixon doesn't get the intent of Mildred's comment.

If anything, these ideas are why I liked the film a lot. Yes, they're repugnant people, ones I wouldn't want to be around, but they're still people, and you'll still have to be around them, and they're still humans--flaws and all.

Guy Mann
Mar 28, 2016

by Lowtax

Franchescanado posted:

With the conversation with Mildred confronting Dixon about torturing blacks, I don't think the humor is that they're saying the n-word to each other, it's that she's loving with him on his own level and trying to goad him into a false move--such as violence or incriminating language, etc.-- and Dixon, rather than pick up that she's insulting him for torturing black people, he instead tries to debate semantics with her. Even then, it's the darkest humor, and I think it's even calling out those who laugh at the joke in the same way Dixon doesn't get the intent of Mildred's comment.

Yeah I thought that the joke wasn't that the dude was dropping the n-bomb, it's that when chastised for it he superficially cleans up his language by removing the offending slur but is still openly talking about torturing black people and being a hateful piece of poo poo. Like a person talking about the time they tortured someone and then, apologising, amends it to talking about the time they performed enhanced interrogation on someone.

Tumble
Jun 24, 2003
I'm not thinking of anything!

trip9 posted:

Ending discussion: Am I the only one who though it was pretty apparent that they weren't going to go through with it in the end? The act of getting together and starting the drive was catharsis in and of itself, something that seemed pretty obvious both of them realized shortly after starting. I loved it.

Neither one of them have any idea that the guy they're going to see is the guy that threatened Mildred in the store earlier on. So it's really not apparent whether or not they're going to go through with it.

Punkin Spunkin
Jan 1, 2010
I did reshape my opinions on a second watching not surrounded by chortling white people...it really helped. solid movie.

and it's not that I ever thought the humor was the fact itself that they were saying those words...it still just made me uncomfortable initially

Cavelcade
Dec 9, 2015

I'm actually a boy!



Franchescanado posted:

If anything, these ideas are why I liked the film a lot. Yes, they're repugnant people, ones I wouldn't want to be around, but they're still people, and you'll still have to be around them, and they're still humans--flaws and all.

Maybe I'm being naive but I didn't think most of the people in the movie were repugnant. Dixon and the guy who came into the shop sure are, and the ex husband sure is a weirdo. The dentist and Dixon's mom too.

The chief operates in a lovely system but he tries to do his job and he tries to make people around him be better too. He's good to his wife and kids and whether his suicide was brave or cowardly it was a choice made between two different kinds of pain for the people who care for him. His wife loves him but she tries not to take her pain out on other people, including Mildred who would have made an easy target.

Red Welby was a guy running a business for most of the movie who seemed sympathetic enough - but then when the guy who put him in hospital is put in the room next to him, completely at his mercy, he brings him a glass of OJ and doesn't berate him for almost killing him.

Most of the minor characters, like Denise, Pamela, Jerome, Tyrion all seemed like people who tried to be good to the people around them and support them in their troubles.

For Mildred herself, she has more than just anger in her and that's what makes her such an interesting character. When the chief coughs up blood her reaction is one of sympathy and love - she doesn't actually want to hurt him because of who he is, she just wants resolution for her own pain. Actually when anyone shows pain around her her reaction is one of wanting to ease their pain. She actually smiles a few times throughout the movie - at the letter she gets. She's in a lot of pain and she's tough as nails, but neither of those are "all" she is. Describing her as repugnant seems like a pretty strong condemnation of her character.

Escobarbarian
Jun 18, 2004


Grimey Drawer
drat but this was a phenomenal movie. Such a tricky tonal tightrope to walk but it pulled it off with aplomb. My only real issue involves Willoughby’s letter to Dixon - partly because it’s the one section that comes somewhat close to being too cheesy, partly because we have no reason to believe Dixon is a good man deep inside, or has the potential to be a good detective, except for cause Willoughby says so. Telling instead of showing and all that. Ending is goddamn perfect and no way McDormand doesn’t pick up an Oscar statue later in the year.

Also the controversy around Dixon as a character is unbelievably dumb, especially the claims of “redemption”.

Retrowave Joe
Jul 20, 2001

Just finished it and yeah, i don’t think Mildred has racist leanings. She dropped the n-word because she was loving with Dixon and knew which buttons to press.

Magic Hate Ball
May 6, 2007

ha ha ha!
you've already paid for this

Escobarbarian posted:

Also the controversy around Dixon as a character is unbelievably dumb, especially the claims of “redemption”.

I mean, it is a redemption, in that the film details how his violent racist leanings are just a reflection of the social ills surrounding him and that, like most people, he merely has a misguided notion of taking back what he believes to be his, which is mirrored in Mildred's insane and harmful quest for closure and revenge over the death of her daughter. The broadest message of the film is that we should be able to let go of the past, hold hands, and be nice to each other, rather than holding grudges and expecting reparations. This is partially illustrated by the humanization of the guy who tortures black people in custody, because McDonagh is also a misanthropist, providing much of the comedy and irony.

Timeless Appeal
May 28, 2006
I think that's a little reductive. I think that the film's broader point is that hate is more of a coping mechanism than it is a genuine belief or ideology. Dixon's insinuations that he doesn't hate gay people or black people aren't wrong. He doesn't think that gay people deserve to be hurt for their actions and he doesn't think that people should say the n-word. But Dixon hates himself. So, he tortures folks and throws them out windows and throws around his weight because it distracts from how much he feels trapped in his own skin. Mildred's not too different. Deep known she knows that for whatever failings the police have, those failings have nothing to do with not catching her daughter's killer. The billboards are a way to deal with the guilt and her sense of culpability with her daughter's death.

I think the final interaction with her husband goes against the idea that the film is particularly advocating forgiveness. Her husband is a piece of poo poo. Mildred isn't wrong for thinking so. But she is wrong for directing that anger towards his child bride. Mildred shows a level of growth in her demand that he be good to her and the implicit threat that she will stand up for her if he doesn't that is beyond "Everyone hold hands." Her hatred for her husband and her hatred for his girlfriend are shown as two very different things.

I think the lingering question of if they kill the guy isn't one that rests on if it unjust or immoral to do so. I think the film falls on the side of gently caress 'em. The actual question is if Mildred and Dixon are actually able to move beyond just hating all the time.

Magic Hate Ball
May 6, 2007

ha ha ha!
you've already paid for this
Nothing I said conflicts with what you're saying, and I said nothing of forgiveness, merely that the film suggests reparations aren't necessarily due and struggling to attain them frequently causes more grief than satisfaction, so people who have been harmed should, as the characters in the movie struggle to do, accept their place in the murky waters of fate and move on with their lives rather than blame others and expect some kind of refund.

pr0p
Dec 8, 2011
Maybe it's because I recently watched Detroit, but the racial subtext kind of just washed over me in this. It had Lester from the wire! Sam Rockwell's character doesn't have his backstory fleshed out well enough to root for him.

cargo cult
Aug 28, 2008

by Reene
man this was so loving good, but its a much tougher watch than in bruges or seven psychopaths. i still saw it as a straight comedy, at least when it wanted to be, e.g. the awkward dinner scene or the breakfast scene which ends with Mildred, her husband and her son on the verge of murdering one another the person i saw it with as well as most people in my theater were laughing throughout, at least until it cuts to something so brutal that you feel guilty for having been laughing, which mcdonagh does repeatedly and effectively

cargo cult fucked around with this message at 07:46 on Jan 16, 2018

stev
Jan 22, 2013

Please be excited.



This movie was great but man is the trailer not a good representation. I walked in expecting a movie about a mother's struggle for justice in the face of a corrupt, racist law enforcement. I got a movie about slightly lovely, miserable and grief stricken people slowly breaking.

Hand Knit
Oct 24, 2005

Beer Loses more than a game Sunday ...
We lost our Captain, our Teammate, our Friend Kelly Calabro...
Rest in Peace my friend you will be greatly missed..

Uncle Boogeyman posted:

The implication is that he raped, tortured and murdered someone in Iraq or Afghanistan and the military covered it up (or, like a lot of crimes during wartime, it went uninvestigated)

I just want to underline this because I think it really is something notable that this movie ends with them setting out to kill an Iraq War vet for something he did in Iraq. It makes for a hell of a contrast/companion to the throughline of police brutality and racism.

MajorB posted:

It's possible that the billboards and the story surrounding them triggered him because he himself had coincidentally done something very similar which was covered up by the military. He likely projected his own guilt and paranoia onto the billboards and the implication that Willoughby is complicit in the crime through inaction.

My take on this was similar with the refinement that he wasn't triggered so much as he saw or learned about the details of Angela Hayes' murder, saw something he liked, and decided to taunt Mildred about it. He's a psychopath. I think the thing he says before the bell rings is something like he didn't do it, but he would've liked to. That's probably the truth.

Bottom Liner
Feb 15, 2006


a specific vein of lasagna

Steve2911 posted:

This movie was great but man is the trailer not a good representation. I walked in expecting a movie about a mother's struggle for justice in the face of a corrupt, racist law enforcement. I got a movie about slightly lovely, miserable and grief stricken people slowly breaking.

This is my biggest issue with the film; it uses those social issues to lend itself credibility while not actually taking a stance on them and using them in the most shallow ways to seem relevant to the times. It would have been a lot better if it dropped the pretense and just focused on the heart of the story. There's an article going around titled "Is Three Billboards the New Crash?" and while I wouldn't go that far, I get the point they're making. This film had some really fantastic performances but the script was all over the place tonally and the editing had some really sloppy stuff (the teenage girlfriend literally killed every scene she was in and not in a good way).

Franchescanado
Feb 23, 2013

If it wasn't for disappointment
I wouldn't have any appointment

Grimey Drawer

Bottom Liner posted:

This is my biggest issue with the film; it uses those social issues to lend itself credibility while not actually taking a stance on them and using them in the most shallow ways to seem relevant to the times. It would have been a lot better if it dropped the pretense and just focused on the heart of the story. There's an article going around titled "Is Three Billboards the New Crash?" and while I wouldn't go that far, I get the point they're making. This film had some really fantastic performances but the script was all over the place tonally and the editing had some really sloppy stuff (the teenage girlfriend literally killed every scene she was in and not in a good way).

Seems you're more upset about the movie not providing a solution to racism. The last thing I'd say about this movie's depictions and explorations of racism and racists is that it's "shallow".

Bottom Liner
Feb 15, 2006


a specific vein of lasagna
No not at all, my biggest complaint is that it portrays itself as being about confronting that reality from an outsider's prospective but actually uses the issue in self serving and shallow ways. It's a mix of bad marketing and bad script editing. I still like the movie in the end, mostly for it's characters depth and the arcs they have, but with some more mature writing and editing it could have been a movie I loved and one I think would be remembered in a better light down the road.

Bottom Liner fucked around with this message at 19:02 on Jan 23, 2018

Magic Hate Ball
May 6, 2007

ha ha ha!
you've already paid for this
It's not that deep, the basic stances the film takes are:

-The quest for reparations is misguided
-Don't get in too much of a tizzy over violence you can't control
-Racists and their victims are both subjects of the system

My biggest issue with the film is just that the actual script is so messy, I wish McDonagh had stuck a little more to his stage roots and let the momentum build in longer scenes. All the best moments come at the end of a good bout of one-scene development, but the overall structure of day-calendar-ripping sequencing trips it up.

Franchescanado
Feb 23, 2013

If it wasn't for disappointment
I wouldn't have any appointment

Grimey Drawer

Bottom Liner posted:

No not at all, my biggest complaint is that it portrays itself as being about confronting that reality from an outsider's prospective but actually uses the issue in self serving and shallow ways. It's a mix of bad marketing and bad script editing. I still like the movie in the end, but with some more mature writing and editing it could have been a movie I loved and one I think would be remembered in a better light down the road.

Marketing is almost always done by executives or 3rd party company, not the filmmakers. I don't really think blaming the movie for not living up to a commercial is strong film criticism.

I also don't really understand your issue with the ex-husband's young girlfriend. Did you dislike the actress? Did you not think that she worked as a youthful bubbly good-natured foil to McDormand's aged, hardened bitter revenge-seeking woman? Did the irony that the father is loving a girl the same age as his deceased daughter, or that he has more of a relationship and life with this naive girl more than his own son not work for you? Or that he is probably repeating what he did with McDormand's character when they were together with this new girl instead of growing up and maturing himself?

I also liked the tonal whiplash throughout the film. It felt fully intentional. I was also a fan of the pitch-black bitter humor through-out.

Bottom Liner
Feb 15, 2006


a specific vein of lasagna
I'll never forgive him for ruining the intense kitchen knife scene with that dumb loving character and her dumb loving dialogue. In a film with otherwise realistic people and conversations, every time she opened her mouth it just pulled me out of the scene. It was grating and so over the top compared to the rest of the film. It was a mix of the delivery and the writing, but also her placement in the scenes that just killed the momentum to relieve tension but the tension was powerful and intriguing.

Uncle Boogeyman
Jul 22, 2007
Probation
Can't post for 6 hours!
worth it for "I read it... on a bookmark?" imo

Franchescanado
Feb 23, 2013

If it wasn't for disappointment
I wouldn't have any appointment

Grimey Drawer

Magic Hate Ball posted:

-Racists and their victims are both subjects of the system

Can you elaborate on this? Cuz I don't really ever remember the film putting Dixon on the same level as his victims or condoning him as a symptom of the system.

Uncle Boogeyman
Jul 22, 2007
Probation
Can't post for 6 hours!

Franchescanado posted:

Can you elaborate on this? Cuz I don't really ever remember the film putting Dixon on the same level as his victims or condoning him as a symptom of the system.

I can see it both in how the police force is basically the only place for a violent racist fuckup like him and also in the focus on how bad his mom hosed him up. I don't think it ever condones his actions though (not that I think that's what MHB is saying though)

Jeffrey of YOSPOS
Dec 22, 2005

GET LOSE, YOU CAN'T COMPARE WITH MY POWERS

Bottom Liner posted:

No not at all, my biggest complaint is that it portrays itself as being about confronting that reality from an outsider's prospective but actually uses the issue in self serving and shallow ways. It's a mix of bad marketing and bad script editing. I still like the movie in the end, mostly for it's characters depth and the arcs they have, but with some more mature writing and editing it could have been a movie I loved and one I think would be remembered in a better light down the road.
I'm not sure I see how the movie portrayed itself about confronting racism - I assume there has been more marketing in the past month since I saw it but none of what I saw back then indicated that any way. I don't think it's all that fair to criticize the movie for touching on racist attitudes without solving them - that would have been well outside its scope and would have failed regardless, imo.

Magic Hate Ball
May 6, 2007

ha ha ha!
you've already paid for this

Franchescanado posted:

Can you elaborate on this? Cuz I don't really ever remember the film putting Dixon on the same level as his victims or condoning him as a symptom of the system.

It’s pretty explicit depiction of the “convince the lowest white man he’s better than the best colored man” quote.

Guy Mann
Mar 28, 2016

by Lowtax

Bottom Liner posted:

I'll never forgive him for ruining the intense kitchen knife scene with that dumb loving character and her dumb loving dialogue. In a film with otherwise realistic people and conversations, every time she opened her mouth it just pulled me out of the scene. It was grating and so over the top compared to the rest of the film. It was a mix of the delivery and the writing, but also her placement in the scenes that just killed the momentum to relieve tension but the tension was powerful and intriguing.

I want to see the movie that the monologue about how priests are just like the Crips and the Bloods would actually fit in, because that was the biggest offender in terms of feeling like the leftover from a much more heightened and Tarantinoesque draft.

Magic Hate Ball
May 6, 2007

ha ha ha!
you've already paid for this

Guy Mann posted:

I want to see the movie that the monologue about how priests are just like the Crips and the Bloods would actually fit in, because that was the biggest offender in terms of feeling like the leftover from a much more heightened and Tarantinoesque draft.

It felt like a scene from a Father Ted episode written during a high fever.

Punkin Spunkin
Jan 1, 2010
That's another one of those scenes where I was surrounded by old WASPs in theaters and had the uneasy feeling more than a few of them were unironically nodding along.

Mover
Jun 30, 2008


I felt the crips and bloods/culpability speech was less about the church and more about how Mildred doesn’t feel this way about priests specifically but all of humanity: there isn’t anyone alive who isn’t culpable in the death of her daughter.

The priest was a convenient target for her in part because he was pissing her off but also because she can’t tell God directly that he’s guilty.

Uncle Boogeyman
Jul 22, 2007
Probation
Can't post for 6 hours!
Authoritarian left: Mildred Hayes
Authoritarian right: Officer Dixon
Libertarian left: Red Welby
Libertarian right: Chief Willoughby

Magic Hate Ball
May 6, 2007

ha ha ha!
you've already paid for this

Mover posted:

I felt the crips and bloods/culpability speech was less about the church and more about how Mildred doesn’t feel this way about priests specifically but all of humanity: there isn’t anyone alive who isn’t culpable in the death of her daughter.

The priest was a convenient target for her in part because he was pissing her off but also because she can’t tell God directly that he’s guilty.

That's exactly what it was, it just stands out because it's the most Irish-sounding dialogue possible - Mildred barely stops short of calling God an "auld oval office".

Cavelcade
Dec 9, 2015

I'm actually a boy!



Magic Hate Ball posted:

It felt like a scene from a Father Ted episode written during a high fever.

You're right and it was amazing.

Franchescanado
Feb 23, 2013

If it wasn't for disappointment
I wouldn't have any appointment

Grimey Drawer
From GenChat

Magic Hate Ball posted:

By revenge movie standards it's a redemption.

No it isn't. Becoming self-aware that you're a lovely person in need of a change is not a redemption, no matter what genre standards you are trying to employ, it's just self-awareness. Now if Dixon were to rescue the black police chief from being assaulted by white cops, that's an attempt at redemption.

Dixon is pretty hosed. Redemption is such a high order for him that he considers blowing his own brains out rather than continuing to work towards it, partially because his hero did it, and partially because he knows it's a steep uphill climb for him to be able to honestly say he's a good person.

Uncle Boogeyman
Jul 22, 2007
Probation
Can't post for 6 hours!
from genchat:

therattle posted:

I thought that was really clumsy and implausible. Even if you’re angry with your daughter you wouldn’t yell that back. It’s done to make us feel more sympathy and for her to feel even guiltier.

as someone who has seen some pretty vicious mother-daughter screaming matches irl, i completely bought it

i similarly saw someone on twitter saying "the word 'oval office' doesn't get thrown around in family arguments" which, again, maybe you just haven't seen the caliber of family arguments i have.

Magic Hate Ball
May 6, 2007

ha ha ha!
you've already paid for this

Franchescanado posted:

From GenChat


No it isn't. Becoming self-aware that you're a lovely person in need of a change is not a redemption, no matter what genre standards you are trying to employ, it's just self-awareness. Now if Dixon were to rescue the black police chief from being assaulted by white cops, that's an attempt at redemption.

Dixon is pretty hosed. Redemption is such a high order for him that he considers blowing his own brains out rather than continuing to work towards it, partially because his hero did it, and partially because he knows it's a steep uphill climb for him to be able to honestly say he's a good person.

For this movie it's a redemption - there are loads and loads of people who never approach that level of self-awareness and desire to change. If you approach redemption as some kind of epic biblical saved-eternal concept, then no, he does not experience redemption, but within the limitations of the film's narrative he absolutely does.

Uncle Boogeyman posted:

from genchat:


as someone who has seen some pretty vicious mother-daughter screaming matches irl, i completely bought it

i similarly saw someone on twitter saying "the word 'oval office' doesn't get thrown around in family arguments" which, again, maybe you just haven't seen the caliber of family arguments i have.

"I hope you get raped" was one of the more believable moments, honestly

Franchescanado
Feb 23, 2013

If it wasn't for disappointment
I wouldn't have any appointment

Grimey Drawer
From GenChat:

therattle posted:

I thought that was really clumsy and implausible. Even if you’re angry with your daughter you wouldn’t yell that back. It’s done to make us feel more sympathy and for her to feel even guiltier.

Sorry, just seen the request to take it to the thread, which is right

Nah. I've been involved with arguments where lovely things like that are said, and I've witnessed others do and say similar things in the heat of the moment.

Like, yeah, you're right about the story's intent, but parents and children cut to the bone with harsh words like that all the time.

I remember specifically once with my father and mother having a really really bad fight and one of them getting in a car and leaving. Despite being upset and still very angry, my dad told me "Never allow someone to leave with a negative word or a cruel comment. If you say you wish they get in a car wreck, and you do, you'll always live as if it were your fault. It sucks, and its hard, but try to never let someone leave with cruel or hurtful remarks."

So that scene really cut deep for me, actually. I thought it was one of the more sad and honest moments of the film. No wonder Mildred has so much hate and bitterness and craves revenge, she did ask for her daughter to be raped and murdered. She didn't mean it, sure, but that's the monkey's paw wish she'll never forget. Nor will her son forget it.

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Franchescanado
Feb 23, 2013

If it wasn't for disappointment
I wouldn't have any appointment

Grimey Drawer

Magic Hate Ball posted:

For this movie it's a redemption - there are loads and loads of people who never approach that level of self-awareness and desire to change. If you approach redemption as some kind of epic biblical saved-eternal concept, then no, he does not experience redemption, but within the limitations of the film's narrative he absolutely does.

We'll just have to agree to disagree on that, then. Like, yes, I agree that redemption isn't epic salvation of any sort, but the movie doesn't posit that Dixon is now absolved of his crimes just because he's aware of his crimes. It's very clear that he's still going to gently caress up in the future, and that it's going to be a slow process. If anything, it is a beginning of a redemption for him. The door that was once closed is now open to him. That's it. Like, he's still down to murder a dude he has a hunch is a bad person. Mildred's closer to redemption, because she's unsure if she'll actually do it. Dixon will totally murder the guy if Mildred wants to. He'll do whatever Mildred wants. He's still dependent on anyone else around him, he just happens to not be dependent on his mother or his corrupt peers or Willoughby who allowed him to act the way he did.

Dixon never achieves anything in the film other than self-awareness of his flaws and his upbringing. Compared to Mildred who 1. Realizes she has done more damage to her family with her grudge, 2. realizes she hurts people who genuinely care about her (Dinklage's character, her friend who was arrested), 3. ends her harassment and cruelty to her ex-husbands naive partner, 4. warns her ex-husband to be a better person to his partner or she will retaliate, 5. begins to question her entire ideas of revenge and if it's even worth fulfilling.

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