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Sexpansion
Mar 22, 2003

DELETED


Zoe looks like a completely OP champ in the hands of somebody who understands the kit.

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Tired Moritz
Mar 25, 2012

wish Lowtax would get tired of YOUR POSTS

(n o i c e)


he can run very fast into the enemy and use his taunt

Teikanmi
Dec 16, 2006

.










I'm a lucker

Orv
May 4, 2011

"To. Ya' know. Stuff."
(Nazi Rank <3)


Sexpansion posted:

Zoe looks like a completely OP champ in the hands of somebody who understands the kit.

They've already said she's probably due some kind of nerf ("in a month or two") but I hope they don't have to take her apart because I went 1/12/X in my first game with her and it was still the most fun I've ever had champion wise. The kit is just fun.

anti-magic
Sep 9, 2012

We've come up in the ram-raiding business, Owl.
It's all high class now.
No more baby seats.


Sexpansion posted:

Zoe looks like a completely OP champ in the hands of somebody who understands the kit.

Orv posted:

They've already said she's probably due some kind of nerf ("in a month or two") but I hope they don't have to take her apart because I went 1/12/X in my first game with her and it was still the most fun I've ever had champion wise. The kit is just fun.

Sorry but I can definitely see her numbers getting hit soon and possibly further nerfs to her kit once the competitive leagues start up. She's a typical high skill ceiling champ.

Orv
May 4, 2011

"To. Ya' know. Stuff."
(Nazi Rank <3)


The Q absolutely needs to come down because you can literally, unlike most times when League players use the term, one shot most non-tanks at three items if they have no tank built. I could see the ult cooldown going up and the sleep duration coming down as well. As they stand your ability to set up an incontestable, risk free removal of someone from a fight is way too good.

Mierenneuker
Apr 28, 2010



Getting multiple TPs within 10 minutes can also make the laning phase pretty ridiculous.

Prokhor
Jun 28, 2009

In one moment, Earth; in the next, Heaven.

Mierenneuker posted:

Getting multiple TPs within 10 minutes can also make the laning phase pretty ridiculous.

Get teleport > go gank > get teleport in bot > teleport back

Hello friends!

Rygar201
Jan 25, 2011

USPOL May

Prokhor posted:

Get teleport > go gank > get teleport in bot > teleport back

Hello friends!

I only tried her in practice tool last night, but I got Protobelt off the first creep that dropped a W buble, and I can imagine that being hilarious against a person

Ra Ra Rasputin
Apr 2, 2011


In a week when people get used to her skills she will be unbearable to deal with, playing against her as is it's pretty hard to tell where her Q is coming from since it looks nearly identical to her other spell effects coming out of the fog.

Imagine the days of nid mid where a single spear will do 4 digit damage, now imagine nid could setup long range CC for her spears by herself.

Vermain
Sep 5, 2006




Sexpansion posted:

Zoe looks like a completely OP champ in the hands of somebody who understands the kit.

I heavily dislike the RNG element of her W when it comes to minion drops. You either get some dogshit you can barely use like Exhaust, or you get an early TP/Heal at 4 minutes and get to automatically win the laning phase.

Rygar201
Jan 25, 2011

USPOL May

You can nail the blue side tribush behind tower from like the middle of the bottom lane with her bubble, the range through terrain is YUUUGE

duck trucker
Oct 14, 2017

YOSPOS


Rygar201 posted:

You can nail the blue side tribush behind tower from like the middle of the bottom lane with her bubble, the range through terrain is YUUUGE

That's what I don't get. She already has all kinds of good poo poo but they add that extra range on her E through terrain. Why does she get that as well?

Orv
May 4, 2011

"To. Ya' know. Stuff."
(Nazi Rank <3)


So for our Zoe design goals we wanted to introduce another Azir style nightmare to the balance team, and I think we've really succeeded. This week we'll be talking about rune changes...

Teikanmi
Dec 16, 2006

.


duck trucker posted:

That's what I don't get. She already has all kinds of good poo poo but they add that extra range on her E through terrain. Why does she get that as well?

ganking, roaming

Boxman
Sep 27, 2004

Big fan of


duck trucker posted:

That's what I don't get. She already has all kinds of good poo poo but they add that extra range on her E through terrain. Why does she get that as well?

It's Riot's complete and total blindness to see that complexity creep is a thing that actively needs to be managed (shout outs).

Reminder that Zoe not only has these weird intuitive bits of her kit she also adds yet another status effect to the game.

EDIT: I haven't read that in a while, and the bit about how they can make the game a touch simpler by cleaning up armor/MR/armor pen/Mpen is funnier in light of the lethality changes, which is a thing I'm still not sure I understand in detail.

Boxman fucked around with this message at Nov 22, 2017 around 17:20

Tales of Woe
Dec 17, 2004



One thing I think riot is worse at than they used to be is making champion kits with emergent complexity rather than hard-coding it in. I think the difference between Irelia Q and Yasuo E is a good demonstration of this - they both achieve the same general effect of high mobility within minion waves but with vastly different amounts of 'rules text'.

kingcobweb
Apr 16, 2005

Tits and cooters, Mr Bond.


Boxman posted:

It's Riot's complete and total blindness to see that complexity creep is a thing that actively needs to be managed (shout outs).

Reminder that Zoe not only has these weird intuitive bits of her kit she also adds yet another status effect to the game.

EDIT: I haven't read that in a while, and the bit about how they can make the game a touch simpler by cleaning up armor/MR/armor pen/Mpen is funnier in light of the lethality changes, which is a thing I'm still not sure I understand in detail.

Love to click on one of my posts from two years ago and see a missing word in the first paragraph

Rygar201
Jan 25, 2011

USPOL May

kingcobweb posted:

Love to click on one of my posts from two years ago and see a missing word in the first paragraph

That was a cool and well laid about post though.

Radical
Apr 6, 2011



yeah this champ just seems like riot re-treading the same problems that old nidalee had, except also giving her CC to set up her poke. i cant imagine a world where this champ isn't just new yasuo and is nerfed to a ridiculous degree and relies 100% on snowballing her lane to do anything useful by people that have 10000+ games played on the champ.

RealFoxy
May 11, 2011

Band-aids don't fix arrow wounds


Riot made some improvements to the leveling system.

  • Milestone emotes are now free and we're refunding anyone who already used BE to unlock them.
  • Leveling capsules will now give out more raw blue essence and fewer low-value shards.
  • To make the "First Win of the Day" more generous, we're making it reset 20 hours after you earn it (instead of 22 hours).



Now you're guaranteed enough gemstones to buy one of those Hextech skins.....By level 600.

source

Orv
May 4, 2011

"To. Ya' know. Stuff."
(Nazi Rank <3)


Laff

Verviticus
Mar 13, 2006

Security? Please escort the fan in section 106, row 16, seat 1 out of the building right now and bar him from coming here again!


Hashtag Yoloswag posted:

you don't 1v1 (or 2v1) illaoi because she's a heimer-style lane bully. if you opt into a fight against her you've already lost the matchup

e: calling heimer a lane bully is extremely generous and mostly wrong but illaoi actually is and shares the same "don't gank after 6" basically

thebardyspoon posted:

Yeah. so I was just overestimating Kleds ability to go all in since that seems to be his gimmick (and it's worked in a lot of other matchups). Her bullying prowess overpowers his fightiness I guess. So basically, against an Illaoi, if I'm winning the lane or keeping it relatively even it's going to be a very boring game essentially? Fair enough, I guess. Might just be my ban from now on.

anti-magic posted:

It's honestly a waste of a ban, as someone who plays her a lot she feels very weak right now. Just avoid her E and don't get into a duel post-6; as Kled you can actually roam and have CC to do something whereas Illaoi will just push lane and hope people are dumb enough to try and duel her.

this is silly. she can be killed at any point - her ult basically forces her to fight in a camille style box without anything preventing you from walking away. if she ever misses her grab, gently caress her up. when she ults, just dont get hit by the tentacles. you can accomplish this with a tiny amount of awareness and walking completely unimpeded to the side. she has no cc except when her grab procs

the 2v1 advice has a bit of merit - your jungler is probably too stupid to do the above, so he'll heal her and die

Elman
Oct 26, 2009



Boxman posted:

It's Riot's complete and total blindness to see that complexity creep is a thing that actively needs to be managed (shout outs).

This is a lot of words to say LoL's hero design is lazy and overcomplicated.

Riot want to stick to their idea of what the game should be like. This limits their designs and doesn't allow them to add weird skills that "break" existing game mechanics in interesting ways. I'm thinking of Dota heroes like Rubick (his ult copies an enemy's last used skill), Invoker (has 9 different active skills), Meepo (you control 2 to 5 copies of the same champ at the same time, if one of them dies they all die) or Furion (global teleport anywhere in the map on a 20 second cooldown), etc.

LoL champs feel more like Pokemon than Dota heroes to me. There's a ton of different flavours to choose but unless you're really deep into it, their differences seem superficial.

What I'm trying to get at is that I feel like they often rely on the same handful of skill templates. I mean there's like 9 or 10 different champs that have a skill that's just "press this key to boost your next autoattack and give it a fancy effect" (see: Nasus, Trundle, Garen, Yorick, Shyvana, Mordekaiser, etc). Veigar, Camille, Tresh and Jarvan all do the "trap you in a cage" thing. There's only so many different types of skills you can come up with if you're not willing to do crazy poo poo, and the way Riot differentiates these skills is by adding extra side effects or fancy combo/skill interaction mechanics.

Verviticus
Mar 13, 2006

Security? Please escort the fan in section 106, row 16, seat 1 out of the building right now and bar him from coming here again!


thats a lot of words to say that you're a dota player

Elman
Oct 26, 2009



Verviticus posted:

thats a lot of words to say that you're a dota player

Hey I still love the game! I just did this earlier today and I was all :

https://gfycat.com/PalatableHeftyAb...ngroundhornbill

(whoever told me I should try Shyvana was right on the money)

Crazy Larry
Apr 13, 2013


Hmmm yes, Veigar and J4, two notoriously similar champs.

kingcobweb
Apr 16, 2005

Tits and cooters, Mr Bond.


Elman posted:

This is a lot of words to say LoL's hero design is lazy and overcomplicated.
No it isn't.

League's design makes more sense than DOTA. All my criticisms are amplified 10x for that game.

JerryLee
Feb 4, 2005

THE RESERVED LIST! THE RESERVED LIST! I CANNOT SHUT UP ABOUT THE RESERVED LIST!


With respect, I don't think you're giving League enough credit.

Elman posted:

Rubick (his ult copies an enemy's last used skill),

They basically just did this sort of thing with Zoe, though it took them a while to do it (but probably no longer than it took DOTA overall)

quote:

Invoker (has 9 different active skills),

Just off the top of my head, Jayce and Nid have six or seven active skills apiece (depending how you count them; for Jayce at least I count his transform because it has a bonus beyond simply changing the rest of the active skills). I don't know if they'll ever do 9 but it's not because they're opposed on principle to shoveling twice the usual number of skills onto a single champ

quote:

Meepo (you control 2 to 5 copies of the same champ at the same time, if one of them dies they all die)

OK, granted, LoL probably won't ever do this given the lack of direct multi-unit control.

quote:

or Furion (global teleport anywhere in the map on a 20 second cooldown), etc.

What's the difference here in your mind between this and, like, TF or TK? Is it the length of the cooldown? The truly global range rather than a large but finite range? Seems like you have to split some hairs to say that League doesn't explore this sort of design space.

JerryLee fucked around with this message at Nov 23, 2017 around 00:23

Elman
Oct 26, 2009



Look, I didn't mean to argue specifics. I just prefer champions that are easy to understand and explain but have abilities that can be used in many different ways (Azir is a good example, I think). I want to read about a new skill and go "oh, that's a cool mechanic that really sets this champ apart!" and not "ok so Ekko has Sivir's shuriken but it slows people and stands still for a little bit before coming back dealing more damage". The differences between say, Kayn's ult and Zed's ult just don't seem big enough to be interesting to me.

...So what I'm saying is I really agree with that article. But I'd rather not have a quote war with the entire thread about it

JerryLee
Feb 4, 2005

THE RESERVED LIST! THE RESERVED LIST! I CANNOT SHUT UP ABOUT THE RESERVED LIST!


Elman posted:

But I'd rather not have a quote war with the entire thread about it

Wasn't really trying to Be Right On The Internet, just responding with my own thoughts based on yours

Crazy Larry
Apr 13, 2013


Elman posted:

Look, I didn't mean to argue specifics. I just prefer champions that are easy to understand and explain but have abilities that can be used in many different ways (Azir is a good example, I think). I want to read about a new skill and go "oh, that's a cool mechanic that really sets this champ apart!" and not "ok so Ekko has Sivir's shuriken but it slows people and stands still for a little bit before coming back dealing more damage". The differences between say, Kayn's ult and Zed's ult just don't seem big enough to be interesting to me.

...So what I'm saying is I really agree with that article. But I'd rather not have a quote war with the entire thread about it

I think you're focusing way too much on single abilities for these comparisons and not the champs entire kit and the way their abilities and play style interact. Like yeah, Sivir and Ekko are superficially similar if you just look exclusively at their Q. This ignores the entire rest of their kit and the way their abilities work together, which gives them extremely different play styles and roles in a team.

gowb
Apr 14, 2005

by zen death robot


Crazy Larry posted:

I think you're focusing way too much on single abilities for these comparisons and not the champs entire kit and the way their abilities and play style interact. Like yeah, Sivir and Ekko are superficially similar if you just look exclusively at their Q. This ignores the entire rest of their kit and the way their abilities work together, which gives them extremely different play styles and roles in a team.

That's what the guy meant about how league is like Pokémon imo. It's kinda samey until you get extremely into it. I agree that dota is better about making distinct, memorable heroes but I prefer leagues gameplay

Tales of Woe
Dec 17, 2004



I think Azir might be the only champ that's been made simpler since release - they got rid of both his knockup and his CDR to attack speed conversion thingy

Rygar201
Jan 25, 2011

USPOL May

Tales of Woe posted:

I think Azir might be the only champ that's been made simpler since release - they got rid of both his knockup and his CDR to attack speed conversion thingy

Jax. They changed his old AP/AD to Health passive and removed his old dodge+stun passive, all of which makes him more readable to his opponent

njsykora
Jan 23, 2012

Robots confuse squirrels.

Having thematic similarities between different character abilities also makes it less intimidating to jump to a new champion. Like I've not played Nasus before but having spent time in the last week playing Yorick I'm much more likely to try him out next time he's on rotation because of the similar Q.

SlyFrog
May 16, 2007

KAWAIIII~~~


Well, you can't get a random champion unless you are missing at least 10 champions. That sucks.

The Missing Link
Aug 13, 2008

Should do fine against cats.


SlyFrog posted:

Well, you can't get a random champion unless you are missing at least 10 champions. That sucks.

Also, if one of your 10 missing champs is on sale then it doesn't count and you can't roll a mystery.

kingcobweb
Apr 16, 2005

Tits and cooters, Mr Bond.


Elman posted:

Look, I didn't mean to argue specifics. I just prefer champions that are easy to understand and explain but have abilities that can be used in many different ways (Azir is a good example, I think). I want to read about a new skill and go "oh, that's a cool mechanic that really sets this champ apart!" and not "ok so Ekko has Sivir's shuriken but it slows people and stands still for a little bit before coming back dealing more damage". The differences between say, Kayn's ult and Zed's ult just don't seem big enough to be interesting to me.

...So what I'm saying is I really agree with that article. But I'd rather not have a quote war with the entire thread about it

Nah, I'm not gonna get into a dumb debate. I just don't like it when someone responds to a piece of my writing by saying that I think League's hero design is lazy. I don't think that! You're agreeing with a point I'm not making!

I do think League's designs are frequently overcomplicated. That part is true. And your point about abilities that can be used in many different ways is true (Ziggs W is a good example, especially before they added the tower-blowing-up thing).

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Verviticus
Mar 13, 2006

Security? Please escort the fan in section 106, row 16, seat 1 out of the building right now and bar him from coming here again!


i agree with king cobwebs conclusion that janna players are inferior

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