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a fatguy baldspot posted:I've really been enjoying new Kayle, I was awful with her old version, but it feels much smoother now and as long as you can survive the early game without your team completely throwing, you win. I would describe New Kayle as many things, but 'smoother' is not one of them. I can't think of anything less smooth than massive power spikes at certain levels, even moreso than the usual ultimate spikes.
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Nov 26, 2021 08:51
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ChaosReaper posted:Coming back to this game for the first time since like 2015 and I just have a basic rear end question I can't find the answer to. Why do ADCs only go bot regardless of if they are red or blue side? The maps seem mirrored based off the jungle so wouldn't you want your carries opposite each other? This is generally how it is in the other mobas I've played like Smite and Dota, but I started playing with some friends again and they had told me it's not that way here but didn't know why. heres a long effort post i made about how laning works in theory here. in practice this is 2 years out of date and very generalized but it still holds up: pog boyfriend posted:i have been seeing a lot of confusion around unorthodox picks and how they work, and i think most people are not generally aware so i am going to make a writeup on the eurolane - how it came to be, and how you can use it to predict champion picks. the eurolane is the correct term for what people call "the meta". top laner, jungler, adc, support, mid - these are terms that come from the context of the eurolane. deviations from the formula are so common that you do not even think of them as deviations, but understanding why people started doing this will help tremendously in being able to comprehend unorthodox strategies(yasuo/vlad/whatever bot, duo ap bots, etc) that come up from time to time.
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Nov 26, 2021 15:30
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I always knew ziggs was the best adc
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Nov 26, 2021 16:52
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I'm not good at this game, and I haven't played Summoner's Rift since I returned, but I always got frustrated by the meta being so drat concrete. If you deviated even a little, people would melt down over it, even though at low ELO, it's hard to state how little anything really mattered. There are mages and even assassins that I feel have the survivability to go top and be fine. They just need either a good enough escape or a deceptive amount of sustain.
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Nov 26, 2021 17:26
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The meta hasn’t been concrete for several years at this point. Even at the pro level marksmen get played top and mid, mages go in bot and the support pool is ridiculously deep if you know what you’re doing.
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Nov 26, 2021 17:37
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just play teemo if you never want to think about meta
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Nov 26, 2021 17:55
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That's refreshing to hear, then. If picks were more relaxed, I would probably play more. Most of what I own are ADCs or mages, and most of the beefier characters that I own I am not at all comfortable dueling with. Like, personally, I want to play my tanks as support and my more skilled/comfortable characters (not higher skill characters---ones I feel skilled with) top. Judging by the ARAMs I have been playing, tanks don't seem like they even feel remotely tanky until they're around mid game with items anyhow. I'd be much more confident playing, say, Karma, who I know how to keep alive with shield or R->W. Once upon a time, playing a mage top was verboten, and I could never understand why.
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Nov 26, 2021 18:05
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Veryslightlymad posted:Judging by the ARAMs I have been playing, tanks don't seem like they even feel remotely tanky until they're around mid game with items anyhow. Tanks are plenty tanky early on in SR, but they're deliberately built to not be tanky enough to eat an entire team's worth of damage and come out the other end with one item under their belts. If they were, then laning against one on SR would be a complete nightmare.
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Nov 26, 2021 18:25
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Tired Moritz posted:just play teemo if you never want to think about meta Playing heimer in mid, top, or bottom has proven to be both successful and fun (for exactly one person in the game, me, the person playing heimer) so I advocate for this as well
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Nov 26, 2021 18:26
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Elvis_Maximus posted:Playing heimer in mid, top, or bottom has proven to be both successful and fun (for exactly one person in the game, me, the person playing heimer) so I advocate for this as well i miss banner zzrot heimer, one of the most obnoxious builds i've played specifically to screw over the few picks who like to roam out of top and/or those who make teleport plays
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Nov 26, 2021 18:37
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Also be aware ARAM has unique balance, healing for instance is across the board nerfed and lots of characters that are balanced for SR are bonkers in ARAM and sometimes the other way
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Nov 26, 2021 18:42
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Barudak posted:Also be aware ARAM has unique balance, healing for instance is across the board nerfed and lots of characters that are balanced for SR are bonkers in ARAM and sometimes the other way Yeah, Karma's damage is a nightmare on ARAM, but her R->W sustain is still plenty to never die until people get items. If that's actually nerfed for ARAM, then that should be more than enough to tangle with a tank. What I want to know is how many people have scaled down HP in ARAM. I've noticed recently Veigar, of all people, has a shockingly high starting health in that mode. Is he actually supposed to be beefy early, or is that an ARAM quirk?
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Nov 26, 2021 19:16
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Barudak posted:Also be aware ARAM has unique balance, healing for instance is across the board nerfed and lots of characters that are balanced for SR are bonkers in ARAM and sometimes the other way It's usually only allied healing that's cut down. The various damage taken/dealt modifiers are what usually ends up creating "blow up instantly" situations. If you get a champion like, say, Maokai trying to tank, and then put him up against Evelynn/Leblanc, he's gonna absolutely explode even with six full items because he's taking something like +25% more damage from those two when all the modifiers are multiplied together.
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Nov 26, 2021 19:16
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Lord_Magmar posted:Because Dragon is more valuable than Rift Herald early on so you want 4 players able to go dragon instead of 3 for Rift Herald. Also bot-lane towers have weaker early game protection I think, when they added that in. Also top and mid towers take less damage for the first eight minutes so if you send two top and they send two bot they'll get more plates and might even get first tower. That's the biggest reason, lane swaps in pro play weren't that uncommon before the tower armour change.
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Nov 27, 2021 00:51
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Veryslightlymad posted:I'm not good at this game, and I haven't played Summoner's Rift since I returned, but I always got frustrated by the meta being so drat concrete. If you deviated even a little, people would melt down over it, even though at low ELO, it's hard to state how little anything really mattered. a lot of times there are 50% champions that you can take top and yes win 50% of the time, give or take, that just loving suck to play with and around as the other 4 people and so when people are like yes! im meta busting! its vayne top time! i just tell them to gently caress off and eat poo poo because now i have to deal with their tiresome egotistical bullshit - so when you do talon or malzahar top or whatever its very similar to being the same thing that said quote:Like, personally, I want to play my tanks as support and my more skilled/comfortable characters (not higher skill characters---ones I feel skilled with) top. this largely just ignores why the meta exists in the first place in favour of you doing what you want to do. top is not where you send people who are going to carry the game
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Nov 27, 2021 01:11
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Verviticus posted:this largely just ignores why the meta exists in the first place in favour of you doing what you want to do. top is not where you send people who are going to carry the game Tell that to my thousands of losses where 10/0 Darius descends from on high and rampages all over my team.
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Nov 27, 2021 01:17
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look as someone who exclusively plays top lane and my highest mastery characters are jax darius ryze (when he was good) graves etc... i would like to agree with you so i can demand more people pay attention to me and make me feel good but the truth of the matter is that mid and jungle are way, way more important to the game
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Nov 27, 2021 01:43
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I mean, also having a terrible mid and jungle are probably why Darius comes down and splits my poor body in half in bot lane. edit: I, also, am bad, in this scenario, Bleck fucked around with this message at 01:56 on Nov 27, 2021 |
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Nov 27, 2021 01:51
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I don't think most off-meta picks intrinsically warp the game around them any more than say nasus or like any hard splitpusher. obviously this depends on how off-meta we're talking though
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Nov 27, 2021 01:54
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https://i.imgur.com/YLc1f52.mp4
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Nov 27, 2021 04:35
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Ideally you just want to have ways to engage a fight for your team comp against the enemy team comp so you don't lose automatically in champ select, you don't have to have a tank for the engage but it helps. If the enemy team has say, Lulu/Kog/Bruiser or tank top/engage jungler/Lux mid, and your team comp has absolutely no way to touch Kog'maw or survive long enough to get past Lulu's anti-engage skills alone, you might as well just dodge in champ select and save yourself a 15 minute 4/1 FF and 20 minute 3/2 FF into a 25 minute enemy baron push where they slowly end. If your team has Jhin/Zyra bot Lux or Xerath mid, you don't really -need- a engage tank, your team is going to look to root someone for 2 minutes and then delete them from 2 screens away, your last 2 picks would ideally be disengage that can slow down anyone trying to reach them and delay a Talon or Irelia from getting in their face while they look to get a pick. Once you understand what every champ actually does, try to imagine how the fights would play out before you load into the game and what champion is each teams win condition and play accordingly to that, or realize your team picked 5 squishy selfish champs with 0 CC and dodge that automatic loss.
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Nov 27, 2021 06:16
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i finally got 1000 ap as veigar then immediately died and didnt get to help blow up the nexus
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Nov 27, 2021 07:46
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I seem to remember them saying years ago that bottom towers being weaker was janky hidden power or whatever, and would be addressed later, but it never was
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Nov 27, 2021 16:25
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Pamela Springstein posted:I seem to remember them saying years ago that bottom towers being weaker was janky hidden power or whatever, and would be addressed later, but it never was I kinda think they can't figure out how to do it without making laneswaps a thing again. The whole reason they made the tower change to begin with was to end the 2v1 lane swap meta wasn't it? I presume it would be even worse now with plates in the game, since shoving the top laner completely out of lane would give you plate gold in addition to everything else (though at the cost of the early dragon)
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Nov 27, 2021 16:48
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Elvis_Maximus posted:I kinda think they can't figure out how to do it without making laneswaps a thing again. Yes, it was an intentional change to make it so that lane swaps stopped happening, because now if you don't have the ability to hold off 2 champs bot you lose bot tower.
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Nov 27, 2021 16:54
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Pamela Springstein posted:I seem to remember them saying years ago that bottom towers being weaker was janky hidden power or whatever, and would be addressed later, but it never was I remember back in the day it was a huge "problem" for Riot, because pro teams would work out just about any strategy that would allow them to send a duo top to crush the toplaner and take top tower at like the 8-minute mark, at which point laning immediately broke down. Riot decided that this was against the One True Way to play the game, which involves Having a Laning Phase of No Less Than Ten Full Minutes, and tried all sorts of random poo poo to prevent it, like yeah, unintuitively making the bottom towers weaker. I stopped playing for like 6 years, but it looks like the solution they ended up with involves tower plating, which is at least pretty visible for players who didn't read up on it beforehand (even though it does inexplicably drop off at 14 minutes, because this is the Official Designated Time When Laning May Cease.)
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Nov 27, 2021 17:00
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Lane swaps were dumb though, you had top laners with support lvl xp and farm until like 15 mins into the game so it completely warped what they could play
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Nov 27, 2021 17:18
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Pamela Springstein posted:I seem to remember them saying years ago that bottom towers being weaker was janky hidden power or whatever, and would be addressed later, but it never was I believe their eventual solution was adding the visual effect that currently exists (where there appears to be a barrier like reaction to auto attacking a tower when it has the buff) and adding the armour to the tower's buff bar and I think the tutorial. I think their original plan was to remove fortification at some point but I guess they never thought of a better solution.
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Nov 27, 2021 17:53
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Lane swaps on paper are a cool and good gameplay/strategy idea, because drat, the game feels like it wants to put everything into a little box, which is crazy for a game with three digits worth of characters. But! If this ultimately led to only a small handful of characters being viable, then it's a problematic mechanic, and not actually letting the game be more flexible at all.
Veryslightlymad fucked around with this message at 18:01 on Nov 27, 2021 |
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Nov 27, 2021 17:57
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Veryslightlymad posted:Lane swaps on paper are a cool and good gameplay/strategy idea, because drat, the game feels like it wants to put everything into a little box, which is crazy for a game with three digits worth of characters. But! If this ultimately led to only a small handful of characters being viable, then it's a problematic mechanic, and not actually letting the game be more flexible at all. This is in fact the answer. It completely screwed over 2 people in a 10 man game, 20% of your game doesn't get to play. When they'd just spent a very long time fixing that specific issue either for support or for jungle depending on the state of the game. Plus honestly the tower plates thing is neat because it creates potent moments of small victory early without totally loving things up by destroying a tower, because you get gold per destroyed plate it encourages aggression early when you might otherwise back because you'd never have gotten the full tower.
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Nov 27, 2021 18:12
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Ooooh, you get per plate gold? That is a fun wrinkle. Since returning, I've only tried the Ultimate Spellbook mode on Rift, because I thought it would be more laid back, but it gave me an anxiety attack because it assigned me Jungle on my first return game and I am just not ready for that, and have no idea how the loop goes. In my second try, I decided US is stupid, because the three random ultras it gave my mid mage were two "close to melee and do physical damage" ults and one Kha'zix "go invisible for less than 2 seconds." I went with that one.
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Nov 27, 2021 18:21
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Veryslightlymad posted:Ooooh, you get per plate gold? That is a fun wrinkle. Usually, if you get jungle and ask you'll be able to swap it to someone else, especially Ultimate Spellbook. As for the ult thing, the way that the game-mode scales ults that are normally only AD or AP means that they get really really busted strong. I would easily recommend them on a mid-lane mage over Kha'zix. Just become an AP assassin basically.
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Nov 27, 2021 18:26
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Add a sixth player and let them play support top.
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Nov 27, 2021 18:26
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Pamela Springstein posted:Add a sixth player and let them play support top. Bring back Hexakill
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Nov 27, 2021 18:28
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Make the game 4v4 so there are no duo lanes.
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Nov 27, 2021 18:35
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Lord_Magmar posted:Usually, if you get jungle and ask you'll be able to swap it to someone else, especially Ultimate Spellbook. As for the ult thing, the way that the game-mode scales ults that are normally only AD or AP means that they get really really busted strong. I would easily recommend them on a mid-lane mage over Kha'zix. Depending on the mage, khazix ult is really good for engage/disengage. Like a veigar popping out of the shadows to cage your whole team and one shot a carry is pretty scary. Don't sleep on stuff that gives mobility/stealth/untargetability to champs that normally don't have access to them cause that can be insanely strong.
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Nov 27, 2021 18:37
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Lord_Magmar posted:This is in fact the answer. It completely screwed over 2 people in a 10 man game, 20% of your game doesn't get to play. When they'd just spent a very long time fixing that specific issue either for support or for jungle depending on the state of the game. I mean, the pros found a solution to that, it was the 4v0 meta. They realized how vulnerable top laners were to being 3v1 dived and how little they could do against the duo lane, so they just completely abandoned their lane and joined the duo to put even MORE pressure on the solo lane if the opponent didn't mirror. The issue is that 4v0 would often result in 3-5 towers dropping before 80% of the players in the game actually interacted with an enemy, completely destroying laning. Once you're defending second tier or even inhib towers at five minutes it becomes very difficult for the opponent to actually do anything to you because even approaching you is so unsafe, so everyone has to be involved in roaming plays or zero interaction mirrored jungle plundering. This made the game a lot less compelling to watch for people who weren't deeply familiar with macro and interested in pure map rotation games, which to this day I believe is the real reason Riot hated it so much that they were willing to add Fortification as a quick fix to remove it.
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Nov 27, 2021 19:00
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Lord_Magmar posted:Usually, if you get jungle and ask you'll be able to swap it to someone else, especially Ultimate Spellbook. As for the ult thing, the way that the game-mode scales ults that are normally only AD or AP means that they get really really busted strong. I would easily recommend them on a mid-lane mage over Kha'zix. I had no idea! I would have absolutely taken one if I knew it would still scale, for all that I don't like the idea of taking my mage so close to an enemy, it would have been fun to goof around with. Does it just make all the borrowed ults Adaptive Damage?
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Nov 27, 2021 19:02
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SSJ_naruto_2003 posted:GreyPowerVan's Great Big Guide To Kayle, Abridged, First edition Tried this last night, I haven't played this game seriously in years and have mostly stuck to TFT and aram. Even when I did play rift, mid was a rarely played position for me so as you can imagine it went poorly. Didn't help that of course as soon as I go mid it's nothing but mages all night. Do you kinda just have to give up the lane against someone like Malzahar? I felt like my sustain all game was just abysmal. He won every trade with stupid space AIDS. I did eventually play and win with Galio, who is just as good as I remember. So that's nice
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Nov 27, 2021 19:08
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Veryslightlymad posted:Does it just make all the borrowed ults Adaptive Damage? quote:-Ultimates that scale with AP but not AD, now also scale with AD. TLDR the converted ratios are weaker (but better than zilch) and have the obvious problem of usually being physical/magical damage. Still good that they have those ratios, of course.
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Nov 27, 2021 19:09
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