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Open source guru Eric S. Raymond followed up his post on alternatives to C by explaining why he won't touch C++ any more, calling the story "a launch point for a disquisition on the economics of computer-language design, why some truly unfortunate choices got made and baked into our infrastructure, and how we're probably going to fix them."quote:My problem with [C++] is that it piles complexity on complexity upon chrome upon gingerbread in an attempt to address problems that cannot actually be solved because the foundational abstractions are leaky. It's all very well to say "well, don't do that" about things like bare pointers, and for small-scale single-developer projects (like my eqn upgrade) it is realistic to expect the discipline can be enforced. Not so on projects with larger scale or multiple devs at varying skill levels (the case I normally deal with)... C is flawed, but it does have one immensely valuable property that C++ didn't keep -- if you can mentally model the hardware it's running on, you can easily see all the way down. If C++ had actually eliminated C's flaws (that is, been type-safe and memory-safe) giving away that transparency might be a trade worth making. As it is, nope. quote:Eventually we will have garbage collection techniques with low enough latency overhead to be usable in kernels and low-level firmware, and those will ship in language implementations. Those are the languages that will truly end C's long reign. There are broad hints in the working papers from the Go development group that they're headed in this direction... Sorry, Rustaceans -- you've got a plausible future in kernels and deep firmware, but too many strikes against you to beat Go over most of C's range. No garbage collection, plus Rust is a harder transition from C because of the borrow checker, plus the standardized part of the API is still seriously incomplete (where's my select(2), again?). The only consolation you get, if it is one, is that the C++ fans are screwed worse than you are. At least Rust has a real prospect of dramatically lowering downstream defect rates relative to C anywhere it's not crowded out by Go; C++ doesn't have that.
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Nov 27, 2017 12:43
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hm well now we know C++ is good, and so is Rust
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Nov 27, 2017 15:58
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Captain Foo posted:hm well now we know C++ is good, and so is Rust esr is like an oracle that tells the opposite of the truth
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Nov 27, 2017 16:15
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quote:Eventually we will have garbage collection techniques with low enough latency overhead to be usable in kernels and low-level firmware, and those will ship in language implementations. Those are the languages that will truly end C's long reign. There are broad hints in the working papers from the Go development group that they're headed in this direction... ask twenty years of jvm research how well that worked out
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Nov 27, 2017 16:42
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yes, esr's opinions are very important
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Nov 27, 2017 17:12
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TOPS-420 posted:ask twenty years of jvm research how well that worked out Microsoft did it with C# (or rather, a variant of C#) in the Midori OS. Then realized they had no use for another OS and threw it away. See: http://joeduffyblog.com/2015/12/19/safe-native-code/
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Nov 27, 2017 17:22
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Symbolic Butt posted:yes, <a small contributor to the game Battle of Wesnoth> opinions are very important He really hasn't contributed much development on anything from what I can tell.
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Nov 27, 2017 17:24
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it’s because he’s a racist, op.
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Nov 27, 2017 17:27
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eric s rapist
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Nov 27, 2017 17:30
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does anybody in here actually ship rust code yet? aside from moozilers
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Nov 27, 2017 18:43
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Tankakern posted:Open source guru Eric S. Raymond followed up his post on alternatives to C by explaining why he won't touch C++ any more, calling the story "a launch point for a disquisition on the economics of computer-language design, why some truly unfortunate choices got made and baked into our infrastructure, and how we're probably going to fix them." stopped clock is right twice a day. c++ sucks big ones, the jvm and java are great. too bad he used up his two chances to be right and then said go is good 
Condiv fucked around with this message at 18:54 on Nov 27, 2017 |
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Nov 27, 2017 18:48
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esr is a gross creep
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Nov 27, 2017 19:54
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Fiedler posted:Microsoft did it with C# (or rather, a variant of C#) in the Midori OS. Then realized they had no use for another OS and threw it away. See: http://joeduffyblog.com/2015/12/19/safe-native-code/ yeah midori is (was?) pretty awesome, too bad it didn't go anywhere. they had to change c# pretty radically to make it work though, with a bunch of added stuff for managing reference capabilities for concurrency safety, emphasis on value types, etc. all this stuff also nicely gives an optimizer a lot of semantic info to work with avoiding spilling stuff on the heap, but even then i think they needed four or five different gcs to make it all work acceptably go has structs that don't need heap allocations, which is good, but then screws it up with basically unrestricted pointers and weak escape analysis. pass a pointer to a local variable to another function and it goes on the heap. their much-touted new responsive gc uses 70s technology to sacrifice tons of throughput to get there. basically it needs a barrier in all the same places you need a retain/release in a refcounted system, so you get the poor code size and throughput of ARC with the 2x memory overhead of tracing gc. cool?
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Nov 27, 2017 20:04
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I would go with "was" to describe Midori. It was dead and buried with the teams scattered by the time Joe Duffy started writing about it. I assume Midori was essentially just a hedge against a hypothetical next generation OS threatening the desktop monopoly.
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Nov 28, 2017 01:11
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I doubt Go will every become widely adopted because google seems to have "develop something, market it as the next big thing, swiftly move onto the next thing" as part of their ongoing business plan
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Nov 28, 2017 04:10
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abigserve posted:I doubt Go will every become widely adopted because google seems to have "develop something, market it as the next big thing, swiftly move onto the next thing" as part of their ongoing business plan see also: Dart
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Nov 28, 2017 04:18
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Nah, they'll continue funding golang forever. Unfortunate, too, given that it's a laughably bad language.
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Nov 28, 2017 04:22
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at this point I don't think they ever stop funding anything, they just stop caring about it ask me how much I enjoy hearing the phrase "it came out of google..."
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Nov 28, 2017 04:29
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abigserve posted:at this point I don't think they ever stop funding anything, they just stop caring about it didn't they stop funding google fiber?
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Nov 28, 2017 05:08
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didn't they have some thing where they were going to use air balloons to deliver Internet to the third world? or was that Elon Musk?
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Nov 28, 2017 05:57
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how did the company that invented modern search algorithms employing mostly programmers choose the most SEO-hostile name for their new programming language?
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Nov 28, 2017 06:23
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creationist believer posted:how did the company that invented modern search algorithms employing mostly programmers choose the most SEO-hostile name for their new programming language? because they also employ managers
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Nov 28, 2017 06:58
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nostradamus predicts java will gain a foothold in systems 10 years after the release of android
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Nov 28, 2017 08:00
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esr.txt I think all teachers, day-care staff, and other adults in loco-parentis for groups of children should be required to carry firearms on the job. Maintaining continued proficiency at rapid-reaction tactical shooting should be a condition of their continued employment. Their job is to protect children; if they are not physically, mentally, and morally competent to do that job, they don’t belong in it." I'd thank you for your offer of employment at Microsoft, except that it indicates that either you or your research team (or both) couldn't get a clue if it were pounded into you with baseball bats. What were you going to do with the rest of your afternoon, offer jobs to Richard Stallman and Linus Torvalds? Or were you going to stick to something easier, like talking Pope Benedict into presiding at a Satanist orgy? If you had bothered to do five seconds of background checking, you might have discovered that I am the guy who responded to Craig Mundie's "Who are you?" with "I'm your worst nightmare", and that I've in fact been something pretty close to your company's worst nightmare since about 1997. You've maybe heard about this "open source" thing? You get one guess who wrote most of the theory and propaganda for it and talked IBM and Wall Street and the Fortune 500 into buying in. But don't think I'm trying to destroy your company. Oh, no; I'd be just as determined to do in any other proprietary-software monopoly, and the community I helped found is well on its way to accomplishing that goal. On the day *I* go to work for Microsoft, faint oinking sounds will be heard from far overhead, the moon will not merely turn blue but develop polkadots, and hell will freeze over so solid the brimstone will go superconductive. But I must thank you for dropping a good joke on my afternoon. On that hopefully not too far distant day that I piss on Microsoft's grave, I sincerely hope none of it will splash on you. Cordially yours, Eric S. Raymond if you ever again behave like that kind of disruptive rear end in a top hat in public, insult me, and jeopardize the interests of our entire tribe, I'll take it just as personally -- and I will find a way to make you regret it. Watch your step. I’m glad we’ve elected a black man president; I’m sorry it’s one who looks quite so much like a sort of latter-day Manchurian Candidate programmed by his hard-left associates to hate his own country. In the U.S., blacks are 12% of the population but commit 50% of violent crimes; can anyone honestly think this is unconnected to the fact that they average 15 points of IQ lower than the general population? That stupid people are more violent is a fact independent of skin color. Just the difference in dispersion of the IQ curves for males and females guarantees that, let alone the significant differences in mean at spatial visualization and mathematical ability. Removing all the institutional, social and psychological barriers will not achieve a 1:1 sex ratio in these fields I bumped into him (Craig Mundie of Microsoft) in an elevator. I looked at his badge and said, "ah, you work for Microsoft." He looked back at me and said, "Oh ya, and what do you do?" And I thought it was some kind of tad dismissive, here is a guy in a suit looking at a scruffy hacker. . . so I gave him a thousand yard stare and said, "I am your worst nightmare!" I’m what PUAs call a “natural”, a man who figured out much of game on his own and consequently cuts a wide sexual swathe when he cares to. Not quite the same game they’re playing, however. For one thing, I’ve never tried to pick up a woman in a bar in my entire life. College parties when I was a student, yes; SF conventions, neopagan festivals, SCA events, yes; bars, no. Also, and partly as consequence of where I hang out, it has been quite unusual for me to hit on women with IQs below about 120 – and it may well be the case that I’ve never tried to interest a woman with below-average intelligence. (Er, which is not to say they don’t notice me; even in middle age I get lots of IOIs from waitresses and other female service personnel. Any PUA would tell you this is a predictable and unremarkable consequence of being an alpha male.) When I told this story, later, the reaction I got was often something like this: “WTF? You’re a famously charismatic speaker, you energized an entire social movement, legions of geeks look up to you, and you’re surprised you have leadership capability? That is freaking hilarious. 
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Nov 28, 2017 08:34
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netcraft confirms that rust is good
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Nov 28, 2017 08:38
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someone please post esr's opinions on minorities, women and sex so this thread can be gassed in a hurry
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Nov 28, 2017 08:46
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I met him once and he tried to persuade me that the chili pepper was the USA's gift to the world, somehow  welp that's my story
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Nov 28, 2017 11:34
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Gone Fission posted:didn't they have some thing where they were going to use air balloons to deliver Internet to the third world? or was that Elon Musk? I think that was facebook
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Nov 28, 2017 14:07
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is esr worse than his sycophants
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Nov 28, 2017 18:51
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I am excited for the garbage collected future
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Nov 28, 2017 20:16
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LinYutang posted:I am excited for the garbage collected future When someone goes and deletes all of you're posts?
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Nov 28, 2017 20:22
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TOPS-420 posted:go has structs that don't need heap allocations, which is good, but then screws it up with basically unrestricted pointers and weak escape analysis. pass a pointer to a local variable to another function and it goes on the heap. their much-touted new responsive gc uses 70s technology to sacrifice tons of throughput to get there. basically it needs a barrier in all the same places you need a retain/release in a refcounted system, so you get the poor code size and throughput of ARC with the 2x memory overhead of tracing gc. cool? yeah cool, for services id probably choose go's performance with go's gc latency in java if i could get it but i suspect the performance hit would be worse because java tends to do more pointer chasing
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Nov 28, 2017 21:45
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Fiedler posted:I would go with "was" to describe Midori. It was dead and buried with the teams scattered by the time Joe Duffy started writing about it. I assume Midori was essentially just a hedge against a hypothetical next generation OS threatening the desktop monopoly. it was a ballmer vanity project to keep certain engineers busy and satya came in and cleaned house
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Nov 28, 2017 22:12
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suffix posted:yeah cool, for services id probably choose go's performance with go's gc latency in java if i could get it shenandoah is supposed to be real low gc latency u can try it in fedora
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Nov 28, 2017 22:52
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i suspect the oracle jvm's gc latency probably beats the poo poo out of go's gc latency in any event
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Nov 29, 2017 00:07
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George posted:is esr worse than his sycophants he’s honestly pretty bad
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Nov 29, 2017 00:51
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he is so loving bad I guess the question is whether and how much he would be less bad without his twisted fan club telling him every rancid idea he shits up is genius
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Nov 29, 2017 01:08
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he was pretty bad before the fan club
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Nov 29, 2017 01:16
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see also his “participation” in ncurses
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Nov 29, 2017 01:16
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i guess the inevitable truth is that the world would be a lot better off had he never been born
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Nov 29, 2017 01:29
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