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NikkolasKing
Apr 3, 2010



It's not about Whedon and it never has been. His greatest cultural legacy is Buffy the Vampire Slayer, a fantastic show thanks to the performances of many different actors and actresses, the writing of many different writers, and its willingness to be quite progressive for the 90s. When people think of, say, Willow and Tara's relationship, they aren't writing letters to Joss Whedon to thank him, they thank the two wonderful woman who played Willow and Tara, Allyson Hannigan and Amber Benson.

Alistair has a bit of Xander in him but stripped of the more toxic elements of Xander's character that came from being a nerdbro of the 90s.

Dragon Age really isn't anything like Buffy, it just took some of the "lingo" that Buffy injected into popular culture. But at this point, everything has been influenced by Buffy. It's kidna like how people try to tell me Aliens is a good movie in spite of the fact I've seen dozens of films and shows just like Aliens. "It was new when Aliens did it!" Well, Buffy is sorta the same where popular culture has just been forever changed by it.

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PureRok
Mar 27, 2010

Good as new.
Actually his greatest show is Firefly and the only good Buffy was the movie.

KittyEmpress
Dec 30, 2012

Jam Buddies

I've been playing Andromeda and honestly I am enjoying this game a lot more than I did my latest DAI run through (and more than I enjoyed ME3, but I think that's because I played 1 2 and 3 in a month, so I was just... tired of Shepard).

I genuinely don't have any companions I hate. Even the closest thing to a lolrandom companion (Peebee) is actually pretty intelligent. Jaal is interesting and I'm bringing him on every mission, Drack and Vetra have been switching in and out of my third slot with every so often Peebee going in. Cora's neat and I sub her (and Peebee) in for any asari facing stuff.


Liam... has never left the ship since the first mission, but he's still a chill bro I like having around to chat with.

There's no one I really dislike.

Dick Trauma
Nov 30, 2007

God damn it, you've got to be kind.
Of all those companions you named Peebee is the only one I remember. I can probably name most of the ME ones.

ThomasPaine
Feb 4, 2009

We have no compassion and we ask no compassion from you. When our turn comes, we shall not make excuses for the terror.

KittyEmpress posted:

I've been playing Andromeda and honestly I am enjoying this game a lot more than I did my latest DAI run through (and more than I enjoyed ME3, but I think that's because I played 1 2 and 3 in a month, so I was just... tired of Shepard).

I genuinely don't have any companions I hate. Even the closest thing to a lolrandom companion (Peebee) is actually pretty intelligent. Jaal is interesting and I'm bringing him on every mission, Drack and Vetra have been switching in and out of my third slot with every so often Peebee going in. Cora's neat and I sub her (and Peebee) in for any asari facing stuff.


Liam... has never left the ship since the first mission, but he's still a chill bro I like having around to chat with.

There's no one I really dislike.

Andromeda would be a solid 7/10 sci fi game if they hadn't slapped the mass effect name on it and set such a high bar. The fighting is good but the characters mostly feel like they're trying to cosplay favourites from the mainline games, the RP aspects are cut back, and the story feels superficial and phoned in. The few interesting hooks they had with cerberus and the benefactor and the quarian arc never went anywhere and probably never will now there's no chance it's getting dlc. It just feels like you're playing a mass effect fanfic rather than an actual mass effect. It's not that it's bad it's just... ok

ThomasPaine fucked around with this message at 05:04 on Jun 4, 2020

Skippy McPants
Mar 19, 2009

Andromeda would have been a 7/10 game even with the Mass Effect brand if they had just finished the loving thing. Like, if it was as stable and polished as the other ME titles at release it would be remembered more fondly than ME3.

It's a shame Bioware style RPGs are dead in the 3A industry. They really are one of my favorite kinds of game.

Skippy McPants fucked around with this message at 08:17 on Jun 4, 2020

KittyEmpress
Dec 30, 2012

Jam Buddies

ThomasPaine posted:

Andromeda would be a solid 7/10 sci fi game if they hadn't slapped the mass effect name on it and set such a high bar. The fighting is good but the characters mostly feel like they're trying to cosplay favourites from the mainline games, the RP aspects are cut back, and the story feels superficial and phoned in. The few interesting hooks they had with cerberus and the benefactor and the quarian arc never went anywhere and probably never will now there's no chance it's getting dlc. It just feels like you're playing a mass effect fanfic rather than an actual mass effect. It's not that it's bad it's just... ok

I honestly think it's better than most of the previous games, I don't get the hate at all, but yeah I didn't play when it was bugged. It feels like a fun mass effect game and I liked both dealing with angaran first contact and the basic plot of finding the arcs and getting outposts. The actual remnant and kett overarching plot was less interesting than trying to earn trust of an alien species and trying to restore hope in a hosed up bit of a new galaxy.

And I dunno who i would compare most of the companions too. Except Drack. He is just ME2 and further Wrex.

Skippy McPants
Mar 19, 2009

I was mixed on the companions, but to be fair I was pretty mixed on the cast of the original ME as well. A lot of people take for granted how much it helped to have three full games to develop and build them all out.

For their one-offs, I do think DAI has the strongest overall supporting cast.

KittyEmpress
Dec 30, 2012

Jam Buddies

The original ME had two boring or bad companions (Kaidan and ashley) one I never jelled with (Garrus) and then wrex and tali who I liked.

ME 2 had a whole gently caress load of companions, with the star take aways being Legion, Tali.2, and Mordin. It had some boring companions, Jacob, Thane, Miranda, Samara. Some okay ones, Jack, Garrus.2 and Kasumi, and Grunt. And one I really didnt like, Zaeed and the evil samara. Overall of all modern bioware games it has the most companions I like. But I think thats partly because it had like a billion. It also had the most companions I didn't care at all about.

ThomasPaine
Feb 4, 2009

We have no compassion and we ask no compassion from you. When our turn comes, we shall not make excuses for the terror.
I still find it hilarious that you can play a shep so dumb and horny that they spend hours tracking the psychic alien who murders horribly anyone they have mind sex with, choose to betray said alien's mum to recruit her and her terrifying sex murder power, then inexplicably immediately proposition her only to, predictably, get sex murdered.

ilitarist
Apr 26, 2016

illiterate and militarist

KittyEmpress posted:

I honestly think it's better than most of the previous games, I don't get the hate at all, but yeah I didn't play when it was bugged.

Same here. When I hear all the complaints about MEA I wonder why is it not applied to ME1-3. It's probably all about the tone, ME1-3 was much more space operatic (this is a real word, I've checked) and idealist. MEA is much more down to earth. Which probably clashes with the whole idea of exploring alien galaxy.

Edit: after some thought, I remember that MEA had very bad framing around their choices. They have more visible in-game repercussions but ME1-3 was full of moments where you are told that your choice will decide the fate of the planet. And then you get one of three different lines from some NPC in the next game. I remember only one such choice in MEA when you found your first outpost - whether it will be a military or science outpost. There are other interesting decisions like censoring Angara mails to the Crucible and you can see a lot of repercussions, more than before. But it's always low-key. Help a guy to relocate. See a guy you talked to previously be murdered later due to some events.

ilitarist fucked around with this message at 09:43 on Jun 4, 2020

exquisite tea
Apr 21, 2007

Carly shook her glass, willing the ice to melt. "You still haven't told me what the mission is."

She leaned forward. "We are going to assassinate the bad men of Hollywood."


ThomasPaine posted:

I still find it hilarious that you can play a shep so dumb and horny that they spend hours tracking the psychic alien who murders horribly anyone they have mind sex with, choose to betray said alien's mum to recruit her and her terrifying sex murder power, then inexplicably immediately proposition her only to, predictably, get sex murdered.

The whole setup around Samara's loyalty mission makes no freaking sense. Even if you don't like Samara, her daughter is clearly a serial murdering sex vampire that Shepard is given no logical reason to trust. I always thought how that should have gone down is that Samara gets killed if Shepard attempts to do the Paragon thing and stop her from killing Morinth, with Morinth playing along to cover for your mistake. That would have added a layer of complexity rather than Shepard deciding out of the blue "yeah actually I need this evil psychopath I just met five minutes ago on my ship."

ThomasPaine
Feb 4, 2009

We have no compassion and we ask no compassion from you. When our turn comes, we shall not make excuses for the terror.
If mass effect 1's gameplay had aged better it would be far and away the best in the series.

2 is the best though, imo.

3 was actually worse than andromeda in many respects

ilitarist
Apr 26, 2016

illiterate and militarist

exquisite tea posted:

The whole setup around Samara's loyalty mission makes no freaking sense. Even if you don't like Samara, her daughter is clearly a serial murdering sex vampire that Shepard is given no logical reason to trust. I always thought how that should have gone down is that Samara gets killed if Shepard attempts to do the Paragon thing and stop her from killing Morinth, with Morinth playing along to cover for your mistake. That would have added a layer of complexity rather than Shepard deciding out of the blue "yeah actually I need this evil psychopath I just met five minutes ago on my ship."

She does use mind control. Also many players never even had a choice between Morinth and Samara.

Oh dear me
Aug 14, 2012

I have burned numerous saucepans, sometimes right through the metal

KittyEmpress posted:

Liam... has never left the ship since the first mission, but he's still a chill bro I like having around to chat with.

There's no one I really dislike.

I think the general complaint about companions was that they were dull and clichéd rather than odious.

But at your very first mission you can remind Liam of the 'no first use of force' rule and he will up and shoot the first alien he sees anyway. He does not improve. And no, you can't ever express even mild dislike.

Meanwhile you have two gay crew members (not companions). I don't know how far you are so I won't say anything more about them, except that their story arcs* are an insult.

*Ok, the lesbian doesn't actually have one of these, but you know what I mean

Yaoi Gagarin
Feb 20, 2014

ilitarist posted:

Also many players never even had a choice between Morinth and Samara.

How does that happen?

ilitarist
Apr 26, 2016

illiterate and militarist
To have a choice you need enough Paragon/Renegade score to resist her charms and you have to interest her in the club by talking about all the emo stuff she likes.

exquisite tea
Apr 21, 2007

Carly shook her glass, willing the ice to melt. "You still haven't told me what the mission is."

She leaned forward. "We are going to assassinate the bad men of Hollywood."


I thought if you made all the wrong dialogue choices in the club that Morinth gets spooked and you fail the mission outright.

Vichan
Oct 1, 2014

I'LL PUNISH YOU ACCORDING TO YOUR CRIME

Doctor Reynolds posted:

Alistair went from "kind of annoying but a fine companion" to "whiny punk bitch" in my eyes when he stormed off, potentially dooming Fereldan, just because I spared Loghain.

Sparing Loghain while keeping Alistair as king is still the best ending in my book.

Avalerion
Oct 19, 2012

Sparing Logain so he can go on to become a hero sucks, he deserves to die at his lowest.

exquisite tea
Apr 21, 2007

Carly shook her glass, willing the ice to melt. "You still haven't told me what the mission is."

She leaned forward. "We are going to assassinate the bad men of Hollywood."


Keeping Loghain alive against his own will for 2 games and counting has been endlessly entertaining. I hope he never dies.

ilitarist
Apr 26, 2016

illiterate and militarist

exquisite tea posted:

I thought if you made all the wrong dialogue choices in the club that Morinth gets spooked and you fail the mission outright.

Wiki says it's all about resisting the seduction, but I saw somewhere that if you don't get enough points with Morinth she doesn't propose joining you and you still don't get a choice. I've replayed the game not that long ago and I think I could resist her mind control (not sure) but still didn't get an option to recruit her (that's for sure).

Geostomp
Oct 22, 2008

Unite: MASH!!
~They've got the bad guys on the run!~

Oh dear me posted:

I think the general complaint about companions was that they were dull and clichéd rather than odious.

But at your very first mission you can remind Liam of the 'no first use of force' rule and he will up and shoot the first alien he sees anyway. He does not improve. And no, you can't ever express even mild dislike.

Meanwhile you have two gay crew members (not companions). I don't know how far you are so I won't say anything more about them, except that their story arcs* are an insult.

*Ok, the lesbian doesn't actually have one of these, but you know what I mean

They had horrendous lines and were often painfully stupid and annoying. That first mission made me realize that I was going to hate both human squad mates and Rider him/herself more than ever before.


ilitarist posted:

She does use mind control. Also many players never even had a choice between Morinth and Samara.

If that had lasting consequences, I would accept it, but the recruiting Morinth at all still seems like something added just to provide an “evil” option for no reason. Granted, keeping a manipulative sociopath onboard is probably less dangerous than the unstable topless woman who could rip the ship apart around, but it’s still some pointless edginess in a game that was already kind of pushing it with crew members. Especially since she’s just made into a Banshee in the next game offscreen.

exquisite tea posted:

Keeping Loghain alive against his own will for 2 games and counting has been endlessly entertaining. I hope he never dies.

It is funny to see him constantly denied the heroic sacrifice he clearly wants. That and his rebuttal to the Nightmare Demon’s attempts to guilt trip him are worth all of it.

Geostomp fucked around with this message at 12:00 on Jun 4, 2020

ilitarist
Apr 26, 2016

illiterate and militarist
Having dumb evil option still adds to your playthrough even if you never do it. Your "good" choice is now a conscious decision, not just something your hero does automatically.

Like in DAO you have plenty of dumb evil decisions to make. Like just walk out of Redcliff when it needs help. DAI has very few of those, probably none on the main path. This makes good decisions not feel mine. In fact the beginning of DAI makes me remember Pillars of Eternity 2 and Witcher 2. In all of those games you start somewhat amnesiac sent on a mission against your will. In DAI and Witcher 2 you are one step from the beheading when the game starts. What I especially don't like about DAI intro is that your very first words are probably not chosen by you. Your first dialogue choice allows you to stay silent, but then your character starts talking on their own when the dialogue progresses (same happens in Andromeda, by the way). And you can't answer questions wrong, you won't be punished no matter how you react to accusations. In both Witcher 2 and PoE2 you are in a similar situation and can tell those who send you on a quest to screw themselves. And you get a gameover. It's a dumb option you shouldn't take but when you realize this is an option you have a reason to think hard about your decisions. You can really do bad, not just chose between equally bad outcomes like in DAI.

Oh dear me
Aug 14, 2012

I have burned numerous saucepans, sometimes right through the metal

ilitarist posted:

What I especially don't like about DAI intro is that your very first words are probably not chosen by you. Your first dialogue choice allows you to stay silent, but then your character starts talking on their own when the dialogue progresses (same happens in Andromeda, by the way).

Yes, that first dialogue's a real slap in the face for role players. You can't even sound properly angry or disdainful, while if you decide to offer help your character says something toecurling about 'whatever it takes'. I liked DAI a lot, but the Inquisitor's dialogue was pretty poor throughout.

KittyEmpress
Dec 30, 2012

Jam Buddies

Oh dear me posted:

But at your very first mission you can remind Liam of the 'no first use of force' rule and he will up and shoot the first alien he sees anyway. He does not improve. And no, you can't ever express even mild dislike.

I don't remember that at all and I did that mission last week. What happened was he asks if we go in hot or not you say no, and he says 'uh Ryder they're yelling and I cant understand them' 'Ryder they're pulling guns' and then they flag hostile as they start shooting you if you're within range (and the AI shoots back). I guess this does mean theres a chance he shoots first, but in my game at least I got shot up super hard before vanguarding my way into them before Liam could do much of anything.

KittyEmpress fucked around with this message at 16:18 on Jun 4, 2020

venomsnek
Apr 13, 2018

THE KING UTTERED SOMETHING
I love Dragon Age Inquisition, but It would have been so much better if it had faction endings like New Vegas

Stuff like ditching the Chantry to join the Qun or starting a Mage enclave would have added more flavour.

Pattonesque
Jul 15, 2004
johnny jesus and the infield fly rule
Liam gives up a state secret of vital importance (the location of the Nexus) to a rando for no discernible benefit. your two options to call him on this are to say "no biggie" or "oh, you!"

Shugojin
Sep 6, 2007

THE TAIL THAT BURNS TWICE AS BRIGHT...


exquisite tea posted:

Keeping Loghain alive against his own will for 2 games and counting has been endlessly entertaining. I hope he never dies.

making him angrily wave death flags across a 10 or so year period and be denied over and over again does have a certain charm

Sankara
Jul 18, 2008


He's easily the best written character in the series, and voiced by a legend, why would I not keep him around?

BIG FLUFFY DOG
Feb 16, 2011

On the internet, nobody knows you're a dog.


DA Inquisition's my favorite in the series because Thedas is so grimdark, crappy and terrible and its the only one where I feel like I'm fighting to make it a better place

Cythereal
Nov 8, 2009

I love the potoo,
and the potoo loves you.

BIG FLUFFY DOG posted:

DA Inquisition's my favorite in the series because Thedas is so grimdark, crappy and terrible and its the only one where I feel like I'm fighting to make it a better place

That was my fundamental problem with the game: I did not want to save Orlais or Ferelden, and there were almost no dialogue options to go "Thedas' society is fundamentally hosed up."

venomsnek
Apr 13, 2018

THE KING UTTERED SOMETHING

Cythereal posted:

That was my fundamental problem with the game: I did not want to save Orlais or Ferelden, and there were almost no dialogue options to go "Thedas' society is fundamentally hosed up."

Being able to punch Roderick would have been very satisfying, he mouths off way too much.

Oh dear me
Aug 14, 2012

I have burned numerous saucepans, sometimes right through the metal

KittyEmpress posted:

he says 'uh Ryder they're yelling and I cant understand them' 'Ryder they're pulling guns' and then they flag hostile as they start shooting you if you're within range (and the AI shoots back). I guess this does mean theres a chance he shoots first

Everyone had guns out already, so I don't think Liam said that, but something like 'They're beating him'. But I'm sure he basically admits he started it afterwards, I'd have had no idea otherwise because I couldn't see who was shooting. And later you can suggest we'd have been no more friendly to armed aliens on our planet, and he agrees.

Later, when reprimanded for wasting ammo shooting a corpse, he immediately wastes a bit more. That's trivial, of course, but seemed entirely typical as well.

Nephthys
Mar 27, 2010

I think the big issue with Andromeda that's at the heart of all of the complaints being made is that there is very little roleplaying in the game. There is no paragon/renegade system in place, barely any big choices to make and very little variation in the dialogue. You can't reprimand Liam because Bioware decided that you would be friends with him. The player has no say in it. You can't actually attempt a genuine first contact with the aliens because that would be a lot of dialogue to write. No big decisions because they don't want another ME3.

The only games with competent roleplaying Bioware has released in a decade have been Old Republic and Inquisition. We can only really pray that they'll remember what its like for DA4.

Doctor Reynolds posted:

He's easily the best written character in the series, and voiced by a legend, why would I not keep him around?

Even if I wanted to recruit him, I could never really justify betraying my friendship to Alistair like that.

Eimi
Nov 23, 2013

I will never log offshut up.


Oh dear me posted:

Yes, that first dialogue's a real slap in the face for role players. You can't even sound properly angry or disdainful, while if you decide to offer help your character says something toecurling about 'whatever it takes'. I liked DAI a lot, but the Inquisitor's dialogue was pretty poor throughout.

The Inquisitor is just a really poorly formed character. They don't really have a personality beyond kinda nice. You can't really give them any rough edges, whether in dialogue or story options, you're just kinda stuck being a nice person pushing this thing forward. They aren't professional like Shepard, awkward like Ryder, or able to change their personality like Hawke. This stands out having replayed the two, going from my favorite Bioware voiced protag in Hawke to the nothing of the Inquisitor.

BIG FLUFFY DOG
Feb 16, 2011

On the internet, nobody knows you're a dog.


Its cool that if you play a non-human race you can choose to go "What the gently caress is this Andrastian human bulshit you're trying to force on me", "The Maker is bullshit but I'll play into it in public for the authority it gives me" to just becoming a full-fledged Chantry lover but yeah even the aggresive bottom options as Inquisitor are just kind of rude.

Eimi
Nov 23, 2013

I will never log offshut up.


BIG FLUFFY DOG posted:

Its cool that if you play a non-human race you can choose to go "What the gently caress is this Andrastian human bulshit you're trying to force on me", "The Maker is bullshit but I'll play into it in public for the authority it gives me" to just becoming a full-fledged Chantry lover but yeah even the aggresive bottom options as Inquisitor are just kind of rude.

Even that felt weak. In my recent playthrough I played an elf, a dalish elf, but it never really came through in how my Inquisitor acted. You couldn't REALLY push back that hard on the Andraste bullshit, like you always get called herald and you never angrily go on a rant about how you have your own gods, or even call them shemlen. It's more on the spectrum of just too polite to really reject their framing to true believer.

ThomasPaine
Feb 4, 2009

We have no compassion and we ask no compassion from you. When our turn comes, we shall not make excuses for the terror.
I didn't like that the Qunari option for the PC in inquisition has to be a tal-vashoth, would have liked to be an out and out Qun-supporting inquisitor lol

I also miss the origin stories from the first game, I'd really hoped they might make an appearance again but oh well

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exquisite tea
Apr 21, 2007

Carly shook her glass, willing the ice to melt. "You still haven't told me what the mission is."

She leaned forward. "We are going to assassinate the bad men of Hollywood."


There apparently was a cut ending from Inquisition for Qunari PCs where they could declare themselves the Divine, that would have ruled and I'm sad it didn't make it in.

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