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Kanfy
Jan 9, 2012

Just gotta keep walking down that road.

GimmickMan posted:

Eiger's failure path is exactly as disappointing with proper context as I remember feeling it was when I got it.

Yeah, without even the Winternight hook there really isn't much to the run unfortunately. It feels a bit rushed compared to the other DC runs, I also found it really odd that using the propane explosive entry into the warehouse somehow ends up being the more beneficial approach even though it was clearly emphasized that it'd immediately alert the Engineer and all that. Ultimately he doesn't even get a headstart or anything.

I've been pretty deliberate with the mission order and leaving Glory's run last and after Eiger's was definitely always the plan, I still don't outright dislike The Engineer or anything but it's forgettable enough that doing it after Feuerstelle would've made it feel like an especially flaccid finish to the crew missions.

Keldulas posted:

I grabbed the chip out of the bot with Quickness. Unfortunately the threat of being burned is kind of hollow because the game made it pretty clear there weren't going to be any fights after the Engineer chase sequence. So any damage received completely doesn't matter, which is an unfortunate gameplay/immersion segregation.

I didn't test but my assumption is that if you do have less than 15 HP left as a result of the previous fight (which is not super likely since you heal up the last hit you take at the end of a battle) then it'll probably kill you. But yeah, mostly there for flavor.

SirFozzie posted:

I was reading the Shadowrun Returns LP, and I came across something interesting.

Did anyone mention the fiction book Lone Wolf and Lynne Telestrian?

There was definitely talk about the Telestrians but I can't recall if that specific book came up.

Kanfy fucked around with this message at 13:25 on Feb 19, 2020

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Kanfy
Jan 9, 2012

Just gotta keep walking down that road.
Part 55 - On the Road of Redemption





NEW MUSIC:

:siren: :siren:

(Definitely one of my personal favorite ambient tracks in the game and recommended listening for these updates for the proper mood.)






Well we're definitely not in urban Berlin anymore. They really run a cult from there? Looks kinda cozy really, maybe the Firewing wouldn't find us in a remote place like this.





Yes, I can feel it. It's almost... pleasant.

It's meant to be. That's how it gets to you. It worms its way inside of you, *changes* you, and you don't even realize what's happening until it's too late.



When you say "the young," how young do you mean? I need to know what we're walking into.

Never have had to make the call of what to do if a first-grader suddenly sprouted raven wings and started spitting acid at us or whatever it is cults like this engage in, and it'd be nice to keep it that way.

Teenagers, mostly. Sixteen through eighteen, though there is the rare exception.

So, not *that* young, then. Not children.

There was a time when Harrow played with luring younger children here, but he found them to be more trouble than they were worth. The younger the child, the more likely that someone might come looking for them.



So I'll ask you again: are you ready for this? I need an honest answer.

Well we're really good at dealing with thugs and assholes, stealing company secrets, setting security guards on fire, that kinda thing. This place though, been a while since we've last felt this out of our element.

Honestly? I'm not sure.

If you have doubts, clear them from your mind. This place will use them to hurt you.

This is beginning to sound like something out of a horror movie.

That's because it's going to be. Feuerstelle is a vile, toxic place. I still have nightmares about some of the things that I saw here... after tonight, you might wind up with a few of your own.

...Starting to understand why it's us doing most of the comforting whenever we have one of our heart-to-heart conversations. Well whatever, we didn't drive across an entire country just to turn tail and run away after getting here, gas ain't free after all. And it's not like a nightmare or two is ever going to cause real trouble for anyone.

I'm a big girl, Glory. I can handle a few bad dreams.

[She studies your face for a moment longer, then looks away.]

Good.

You wanna compare notes, make sure that we're both on the same page?



Right, we made the decision to focus on playing the saviors instead of the avengers. You sure we can't have our cake and eat it too though?

We rescue the kids here, yeah. But I think that we should also try to kill Harrow.

Planning on that would be a mistake. This is going to be difficult enough as it is... if we don't focus our efforts on one thing or the other, we're going to fail at both.

If we get an opportunity to take the bastard down along the way, we'll take it - that goes without saying. But barring that, we should stay focused on getting those kids out of here.

So a clear "two distinct paths" -sorta deal then, alright. We haven't started anything yet so we could still ask to change tack, but let's just stay the course and focus on minimizing the teenager bodycount as best we can, horror movie vibes or not.

Fair enough. We stick with the plan and rescue the cultists. Do you know how you want to approach this?



Tell me more about this shrine.

It's a lump of rock about as tall as I am, inscribed with runes and encrusted with bone. Its power comes from an entity that Harrow bound into the stone... something very old, and very dangerous.

A toxic spirit. In many ways, it is the heart of this place.

Alternatively:

quote:

This is getting too complicated. We should just kick in the door, round up the cultists, and get them out of here.

That won't work, Rosa. The shrine's influence can be very strong, and the cultists here have all been brainwashed on top of it.

If we try to pull them away from Feuerstelle without dealing with the shrine first, they'll mob us, because the spirit that Harrow bound into the rock will tell them to.




So shrine first, then the kids. Should maybe write this down so that we don't get it the wrong way around.

I want to hash out a few more details before we head inside.

That makes sense. If you have any questions, it'd be best if you asked them now.

So how do we purify the spirit? Some sort of ceremony or ritual?

Why didn't we bring Dietrich with us anyway, it's not his totem but he'd probably know a thing or two about this spirit stuff. Stupid personal mission rules...

Something like that. It'll be easier to just show you... I've got everything we'll need right here.

[She pats the satchel that hangs from her shoulder.]

When the time comes, I'll conduct the ritual. But before I can do that, we're going to have to face the spirit on its own terms. And that's going to be dangerous, Rosa.

Why attempt to purify the spirit at all? Why not just kill it?

That spirit has its fingers in the minds and auras of every kid in this compound. If we kill it, those kids will get hurt. They might even be killed.

We can't take that risk. But if we can cleanse the Adversary's corruption from it, it might withdraw from their minds willingly.

...And then we can get them out of here.

Exactly.

So the kids here doing whatever unpleasant cult stuff they're doing are under the influence of some kind of spirit? That probably wouldn't pass in court, but...

If the shrine controls the people here, then how do you have anything to feel guilty about? Nothing that you did under Harrow was really your fault.



Back before I ran away, Feuerstelle was nothing more than a cult of personality that revolved around Harrow. He didn't need magical help to keep us here - we loved him, and we believed in his message. He created the shrine as an insurance policy.

And you think that something has changed, and that he's started abusing the shrine's power.

[She nods.] Yes. And I think that my escape was the cause of that change. I know Harrow. When I ran, I bruised his ego. His charisma and charm had failed him, and my disappearance rubbed his nose in that failure.

Always with these perfectionist types, fail one dialogue check and they bust out the cheats to make sure they'll never get a suboptimal quest resolution again.

He wouldn't be willing to chance something like that happening again. Not when he had the means to prevent it.

So the cultists here... they're like puppets? The shrine controls them?



In essence, all of the street kids here are addicted this place. That makes them a threat, yes... but it also makes them victims.

So kinda like more traditional violent drug or BTL junkies, never feels great when you end up having to take them down in self-defense even though you obviously do what you gotta do. Just have to try and keep things from escalating as best we can.

I've heard enough. Let's get this show on the road.

[She nods, and the razors flick out of her fingertips.]

I'm with you. Let's do it.



Time to get started. "Keep Glory safe" instead of the usual "Glory must survive" though, kind of cute. No romances in these games but the tone always seems to be a bit more personal with Glory than the other crew members.

We'll see who ends up keeping who safe here though.



Alright spooky house, give it your worst.



Gah, this place is definitely bad news already. What kind of internal decorator places potted palm trees and a drat bear rug in the same entrance hall? What kinda tropical hunting lodge look are we going for here exactly? Come on.



Place looked a lot smaller from the outside, you could drive a truck through these hallways. Quiet enough so far at least, not a soul in sight.



A door this fancy has to have something important behind it. Say, a shrine housing a toxic spirit in need of a good scrubbing perhaps?



The hell, is this door actually putting up a fight? A fancy set of planks, thinking it can stop a mind forged in the flames of magic and tempered harder than the toughest steel by years of rigorous mental training? Ridiculous!





Oh yeah? We conjure up hellfire to burn our enemies to crisp every day, and you think we're scared of a bit of heat and some pretty lights? Think again!





Don't.

It's just a door, Glory! A door! Countless men and beasts have fallen before our arcane might, Rosa the Mage is sure as hell not going to be beaten by a goddamn...



...door!



ah gently caress poo poo hot hot ow gently caress



ah loving hell that burns jesus ow



I-I-I'm the b-boss h-h-here.

[She rolls her eyes.] And I'm the one who knew better than to touch a warded door.



You okay?

I'll live.

Our poor pride is probably never going to make a full recovery though. Unbelieveable.

[Glory stares into the light, frowning.]

The shrine room is through there, but this barrier wasn't here before. Harrow must have warded the doorway after I ran.

Fantastic. Now what?

The ward is like a lock. There must be a key. Back when I helped Harrow run this place, he and I were the only ones allowed in the shrine room. So we look for whoever has taken my place... that's where the key will be.

How will we know who that is?



"Insignia of rank", in other words this Harrow is horny for redheads. One can only hope we can get through this thing remaining blissfully ignorant about any of the guy's worse fetishes.

A girl with red hair. Got it.



We leave the massive jerk of a shrine door behind for now and follow the hallway south, but after a bit of walking we find ourselves back where we started. No less than seven doors line the walls of this looping hallway, all ordinary-looking but unlabeled.



Glory has no insight to offer as to which door leads where, so we'll just start from the first one to the north of our starting point.



Fortunately this particular door was more cooperative than the last one. No one home either, but judging by the fancy decor... could it be that we stumbled into the head honcho's office right off the bat?



If so then this terminal should hold some juicy information for us. Except...



...Harrow is unfortunately not as incompetent with technology as many of our past targets, and we're not going to be able to get access to this thing without Decking 5. Where's Blitz when you need that lazy bastard? Stupid computers.



Good old-fashioned books are more our style, don't need to throw away your dignity and sex life to learn how to get one open.



Harrow's manifesto. The handcrafted line of bullshit that he feeds to his initiates. We all ate it up with a smile, and came away convinced that he was a genius.

[She leafs through the pages with an articulated finger.]

Looks like he's expanded it over the last few years. It's at least twice as thick as it was when I lived here.

Maybe there's something in there that we can use.



Sick experiments as in like "putting raspberry jam on pizza" or like "ah but what if baby but with spider legs"?

...Nevermind, we can probably guess.


I was never allowed in this room without Harrow... nobody was. He said that it was for our safety, and I think that he was telling the truth.

[She pauses.]

I feel uneasy being in here. I don't want to stay any longer than we have to.

I've been on edge since we came in. But that doesn't change the fact that we should learn what we can.

All right. I'll watch your back. But try to be quick.

Alternatively:

quote:

That's just your old self talking. Your past, coming back to haunt you.

[After a long pause, she nods.]

Maybe you're right. It could just be nerves. But that doesn't make the feeling any less real.

Go ahead and leaf through the book if you want to. But try to be quick, okay? I don't want to stay in here any longer than we have to.



Harrow's Manifesto posted:


When I first set out on the path to Free Living, I realized that I'd have to rethink all of my earlier assumptions about life. I'd have to question my own values and beliefs, and I'd need the strength to trust in the answers that came to me.

The prospect was daunting, but it was also necessary. The road to true Freedom is paved with unanswered questions.

After all, you can't learn to be free from a book. The answers won't come from a bible, an instruction manual, or a code of conduct. If you don't learn that, you'll never break your chains. The path to true Freedom is one that each of us must walk on his - or her - own.

What makes life worth living? What in life is truly valuable, and what is the dross that can be burned away? I spent weeks dissecting every aspect of my life to find the answers to these questions. Slowly, agonizingly, I pared down the list until only four items remained.

These four items became the cornerstones of my new philosophy, and the basis for everything that Feuerstelle stands for.

LOVE. The first cornerstone, and the most important. Without love, life is bland and meaningless. Without love, we might as well be machines. Love what you do. Love the people around you. But above all, love yourself.

SELF-DETERMINATION. The second cornerstone. Each of us must be his or her own shepherd - no more Gods and no more Kings.

Your life is your own. Lash out against anyone or anything that tries to treat you like property. An assault on your freedom is an assault on your whole being, and it must be met with an equally ferocious response.

CHARITY. The third cornerstone. A miserly life is an empty life. If each of us is his or her own Master, then nobody should live as a serf. By helping others along the path to enlightenment, so do we enrich our own lives.

PASSION. The final cornerstone. Complacency is poison - be wary of it. Ambition is the key to a fulfilling life. Don't settle for what is... if you do, you abandon what could be.


Ah so it's kinda crap, huh. Selling freedom and power to the shackled and the powerless. Pretty classic cult stuff.



That ominous feeling is getting stronger, Rosa. It feels like we're being watched.

There's no one here Glory, chill. Got a bit more to go.





Harrow's Rules of Living posted:


BE FREE. Be free in all things, and experience that freedom with your whole being - body, mind, and spirit. Discard the oppressive traditions of modesty and shame that you've been indoctrinated with since birth - the Free Thinker has no use for them.

Your body is a source of pride, of pleasure, and of succor, for yourself and for others. Enjoy it, and share that joy freely with those who desire it.

BE SELFISH. Don't enslave yourself to others at the expense of your own happiness. Take what you want, and do so unashamedly. Our desires are an important part of what makes us human. Society has trained us to hide that part of ourselves from the world, but the Free Living person doesn't cower in the shadows.

Own your desires, and rejoice in them. Selflessness is ultimately dishonest, and dishonesty has no place in a free society.

SHOW REVERENCE. The Free Living person understands that the only true governance in this world is the Law of Nature, and that in Nature, there is a Hierarchy.

The rabbit doesn't question the wolf. The mouse does not wonder why it must run from the cat. They *do* because they *must.* Their survival depends on it. As it is in Nature, so it is at Feuerstelle. Know your place in the food chain, and understand the mechanisms by which you can better yourself.


Sure feels like there's a lot of "how to gently caress impressionable teenagers from a position of authority" between the lines here. Bleh.





(Academic) I'm getting the feeling that this entire thing is written in doublespeak. I doubt if there's a single statement in here that isn't contradicted somewhere else.

[She nods.] A fact that Harrow and I used to our own advantage. We could justify just about anything by pointing to that manifesto. If an act is forbidden in one place, it's permitted somewhere else.

If an initiate ever questioned our behavior, we could claim that he just didn't understand the meaning of the book. The other kids would look at him as the ignorant one. It's all bullshit, like I said. Clever bullshit, but bullshit all the same.



There we go with the horror movie stuff again... We're almost done though, this isn't exactly literary award material but information is power and we don't have a lot of it.

[Continue reading.] You keep an eye out - I have to finish this. There might be something in here that we need.



Glory's right, in the end it all comes down to manipulative bullshit made easy to swallow by a charismatic authority figure and a pliable audience. She's probably also right that we should take our leave right about now.

Done. This philosophy of Harrow's really starts to break dow--





What in the

Rosa! Look out!



Gah, so much pain today and we only just got here! This place is terrible!



Whatever hosed up spirit this monstrosity is, it's not very sturdy.



Traditional methods work on it just fine too, so despite it getting the jump on us it's quickly dispatched afterwards.



Well that was unexpected. Also, gross.

What the hell was that?!



A headless abomination just pissed lighter fluid onto the floor and tried to burn us to death. I think that "things can come through" is underselling it a bit.

[She shrugs.] Semantics. Now can we please get out of here before it happens again?

Yeah, good plan.



Only one room in and it's already pretty apparent that this one's going to be an all around unpleasant house tour. Join us next time as we dig deeper into the secrets of Feuerstelle and pray we don't unearth anything wet and squishy.








Before anything else, I want to mention that this mission is pretty thick with dialogue choices and decisions, many just for flavor but a number of things do actually vary depending on what is chosen and in what order things are done even before taking into consideration the two different approaches.



As always anything especially interesting that won't come up in the main LP is going to be covered here or separately after the run, but I just wanted to take a moment to appreciate how open-ended and intricately crafted this mission is compared to most others in ways that'll become apparent later. We've certainly come a long way from the mostly linear and lifeless missions of the previous game by this point.


Anyway, on the alternate dialogue front, there's changing our order of priorities at the start of the mission:

quote:

If we get an opportunity to take the bastard down along the way, we'll take it - that goes without saying. But barring that, we should stay focused on getting those kids out of here.

In that case, I say forget about the cultists. Killing Harrow is more important.

[She pauses.] You know what you're saying, right? If we focus on killing Harrow, a lot of runaways are going to die here tonight. I'm almost certain of it.

Can you live with their deaths on your conscience? Can you justify sacrificing a bunch of brainwashed teenagers to ensure that one monster dies? I'm not sure that I can.

If we let Harrow get away, he'll start all of this over again, somewhere far beyond our reach. We need to end this tonight, no matter the cost.




Having enough Decking to access Harrow's terminal which simply nets some paydata worth 270 nuyen:

quote:






Finally, two alternative choices to the Academic etiquette one we took after having read Harrow's Rules of Living:

#1

quote:

Clear, simple rules, with a focus on instant gratification. I can see why this would be appealing to a street kid.

[She nods.] That's what Harrow wrote them for. And he mined an entire library's worth of 60s counterculture essays, new age self-help books, and cult manifestos to do it. There isn't a single original idea in this thing.

That only matters to the people who know that it's stolen.

#2

quote:

You're an intelligent woman, Glory. I can't believe that you couldn't see through this.

I was a kid. Seventeen years old, and most of them spent living in one hell or another. I had a lot of demons to escape from, and the people here made me feel safe and welcome. I wanted this to be true. I *needed* it to be true. So I convinced myself that it was.



It's easy to pass judgment from where you're standing, Rosa. But in my position, you'd have done the same thing.

You're right. In your place, I'd have wound up here right alongside you. Sorry, Glory.

or alternatively...

No. Not me.

:rolleyes:

Kanfy fucked around with this message at 18:34 on Feb 20, 2020

Yeowch!!! My Balls!!!
May 31, 2006

theres a fwiggin' genocide going on acwass da borda, why dont we do sumfin..? pweeez no votey for joe biden uWu
the combat theme for this area: also extremely good

welcome to the ultimate profanity in the eyes of the Adversary: I Gave You A Sword And You Built A loving Throne Out Of It

harrow is playing with someone precisely nobody likes in this place.

GimmickMan
Dec 27, 2011

The atmosphere of Feuerstelle is so good. You usually wander empty halls in these games half-expecting enemies to pop out of a door or around a corner and when it happens you just nod and get the obligatory combat out of the way, knowing you can take them and that there are no consequences for murdering your way through a mission. Not here. During this mission you're hoping you don't run into anyone or anything, because there are so many ways that entering the lion's den to rescue brainwashed teenagers like this could go wrong, there's only two of you and the game has done a great job of selling that the Adversary is something you don't want to gently caress with. The hallways of Feuerstelle feel that much more tense and threatening as a result.

I didn't have it in me to go through Dragonfall for a third time, and while I got the gist of the things I missed in this mission, it has so many variables that I'm sure there'll be something I had no idea about in this LP.

SirFozzie
Mar 28, 2004
Goombatta!

Kanfy posted:

There was definitely talk about the Telestrians but I can't recall if that specific book came up.

The events that they talk about (the destruction of one of their factories) happened in that book.. where Lynne works with the book's character to destroy the factory as part of the Inter-Telestrian war.. because the Telestrian folks (along with Lone Star) decided to test out a bio-agent against the Cutters gang (which kinda torqued off the main character, seeing as he was undercover with them at the time.

edit: So the Telestrians have one go insane with the Bug Queen, the other likes to field test bioweapons/plagues on gangs. Great family. Can just imagine their family dinners.

chiasaur11
Oct 22, 2012



Nice to see how many of the things I missed were bad ideas. I'm betting I'll see a lot more of those before we're done.

And complimenting the bits GimmickMan brought up, I like that the game is confident enough in its writing to let you play rake at the gates of Hell despite the atmosphere. If your character is brave enough and/or stupid enough to go into this thing confident, they won't fill your dialogue tree with talk about being scared.

They figure the mission itself does enough.

Alacron
Feb 15, 2007

-->Have tearful reunion with your son
-->Eh
Fun Shoe
I totally understand why they went with limiting these missions to just you and the relevant companion, but I cannot help but wish that you could have brought the rest of the crew on this one. Dietrich would probably be lowkey losing his poo poo in this place.

The Lone Badger
Sep 24, 2007

My plan would have involved the isolated road that Harrow travels down on a regular basis in a highly recogniseable vehicle. Blow the van off the road with an IED, hose down the cab with machinegun fire, jobs a good one.

habeasdorkus
Nov 3, 2013

Royalty is a continuous shitposting motion.

Kanfy posted:

Always with these perfectionist types, fail one dialogue check and they bust out the cheats to make sure they'll never get a suboptimal quest resolution again.


I'm tagged in this and I don't like it.

habeasdorkus
Nov 3, 2013

Royalty is a continuous shitposting motion.

The Lone Badger posted:

My plan would have involved the isolated road that Harrow travels down on a regular basis in a highly recogniseable vehicle. Blow the van off the road with an IED, hose down the cab with machinegun fire, jobs a good one.

That'd take care of Harrow, but it wouldn't take care of the toxic shrine at the heart of the cult. Those things are bad juju and leaving them alone is just gonna let it metastasize.

The Lone Badger
Sep 24, 2007

habeasdorkus posted:

That'd take care of Harrow, but it wouldn't take care of the toxic shrine at the heart of the cult. Those things are bad juju and leaving them alone is just gonna let it metastasize.

A lot easier to deal with once its shaman is being hosed out of a pile of scrap metal.

wiegieman
Apr 22, 2010

Royalty is a continuous cutting motion


There are very, very few Shadowrun problems that can't be solved by delivery drones with plastic explosives in them.

habeasdorkus
Nov 3, 2013

Royalty is a continuous shitposting motion.

wiegieman posted:

There are very, very few Shadowrun problems that can't be solved by delivery drones with plastic explosives in them.

One more way Amazon is a perfect cyberpunk megacorp.

Tylana
May 5, 2011

Pillbug
Working out that the barrier rating of a Safe is high enough to protect it and it's contents from C5 powerful enough to level the house is clearly the Shadowrun way.

paragon1
Nov 22, 2010

FULL COMMUNISM NOW
Look, houses explode okay? It's just what they do.

habeasdorkus
Nov 3, 2013

Royalty is a continuous shitposting motion.
Yeah, that's why the saying is "safe as safes" and not "safe as houses."

Fighting Trousers
May 17, 2011

Does this excite you, girl?

Alacron posted:

I totally understand why they went with limiting these missions to just you and the relevant companion, but I cannot help but wish that you could have brought the rest of the crew on this one. Dietrich would probably be lowkey losing his poo poo in this place.

Oh, he would definitely be losing his poo poo.

Kanfy posted:

As always anything especially interesting that won't come up in the main LP is going to be covered here or separately after the run, but I just wanted to take a moment to appreciate how open-ended and intricately crafted this mission is compared to most others in ways that'll become apparent later. We've certainly come a long way from the mostly linear and lifeless missions of the previous game by this point.

You can definitely alter the flavor and direction of this mission through dialogue in some pretty impressive ways. HBS had gotten a lot more confident in both themselves and the player by the time of the Director's Cut.

Space Kablooey
May 6, 2009


I think the thread has posted about the Adversary before when we talked to Glory before, but can we get the tldr on him again? I know he is bad juju, but IIRC it was in a pretty hosed up way.

Vadoc
Dec 31, 2007

Guess who made waffles...


Basically Satan, and not the good one.

raverrn
Apr 5, 2005

Unidentified spacecraft inbound from delta line.

All Silpheed squadrons scramble now!


HardDiskD posted:

I think the thread has posted about the Adversary before when we talked to Glory before, but can we get the tldr on him again? I know he is bad juju, but IIRC it was in a pretty hosed up way.

The Adversary is basically Christian Satan. Mentor spirits aren't strictly good or evil, so in a good light he's all about rebellion, standing up to authority, protecting what's yours. In a bad light think manipulation, betrayal, enslavement.

wiegieman
Apr 22, 2010

Royalty is a continuous cutting motion


You can safely assume that any spirit summoned by a cult leader will be a toxic spirit, which are universally bad news.

Rockstar Massacre
Mar 2, 2009

i only have a crazy life
because i make risky decisions
from a position of
unreasonable self-confidence
i don't think toxic Adversary shamans can be toxic without being obviously profane to Adversary, but since Adversary doesn't get even by revoking power like, say, Dog did to our buddy Jake before DMS, that's probably cold comfort to their victims.

Xander77
Apr 6, 2009

Fuck it then. For another pit sandwich and some 'tater salad, I'll post a few more.



Vadoc posted:

Basically Satan, and not the good one.
Specifically the Morning Star, not the Job guy.

Kanfy
Jan 9, 2012

Just gotta keep walking down that road.

Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:

the combat theme for this area: also extremely good

It's pretty good but it's also definitely a Jon Everist track in that the best part takes while to kick in and makes you wish it was a bit longer because of how good it is.

GimmickMan posted:

I didn't have it in me to go through Dragonfall for a third time, and while I got the gist of the things I missed in this mission, it has so many variables that I'm sure there'll be something I had no idea about in this LP.

I don't doubt it, we're going to do as complete a run as we can (which is pretty impossible in a blind playthrough) but even then I suspect the Extras sections are going to get pretty long. I'm pretty confident in saying that there's going to be at least something new for literally everyone in the thread this time around, there's quite a bit of dialogue you only see when you do things in a pretty specific order. Heck, even the guides and wikis that I sometimes use for reference have all missed certain things.

HardDiskD posted:

I think the thread has posted about the Adversary before when we talked to Glory before, but can we get the tldr on him again? I know he is bad juju, but IIRC it was in a pretty hosed up way.

It was mentioned in the update before this one but Part 30 was the one where we talked to Glory and Aljernon about the Adversary and had some thread discussion about it afterwards.

Kanfy fucked around with this message at 13:25 on Feb 22, 2020

KataraniSword
Apr 22, 2008

but at least I don't have
a MLP or MSPA avatar.
I am my own man.

Utgardaloki posted:

i don't think toxic Adversary shamans can be toxic without being obviously profane to Adversary, but since Adversary doesn't get even by revoking power like, say, Dog did to our buddy Jake before DMS, that's probably cold comfort to their victims.

Quorum posted:

The Adversary doesn't mind you becoming an authority figure, so long as you're leading people in rebellion-- and a countercultural sadism cult would probably count. What it really doesn't care for is being a follower yourself. That said, it would probably find it funny as gently caress if your followers rebelled against you in turn.

Yeah, that’s the thing about The Adversary and toxic shamanism. The Adversary won’t punish blasphemy/profaning by relinquishing power, oh no. That’s too simple, too gentle. What the Adversary will do is give your worst enemies and best friends the power to draw and quarter you, and then make sure the process is so painful and arduous that you’ll beg for death to free you from it. A keener shaman might argue that Glory’s entire character arc has been a punishment for profaning The Adversary - not a punishment to Glory, mind you, but to Harrow.

KataraniSword fucked around with this message at 14:00 on Feb 22, 2020

Lemniscate Blue
Apr 21, 2006

Here we go again.

KataraniSword posted:

Yeah, that’s the thing about The Adversary and toxic shamanism. The Adversary won’t punish blasphemy/profaning by relinquishing power, oh no. That’s too simple, too gentle. What the Adversary will do is give your worst enemies and best friends the power to draw and quarter you, and then make sure the process is so painful and arduous that you’ll beg for death to free you from it. A keener shaman might argue that Glory’s entire character arc has been a punishment for profaning The Adversary - not a punishment to Glory, mind you, but to Harrow.

What goes around comes around.

Sometimes you get what comes around. But sometimes you are what comes around.

CannonFodder
Jan 26, 2001

Passion’s Wrench

KataraniSword posted:

A keener shaman might argue that Glory’s entire character arc has been a punishment for profaning The Adversary - not a punishment to Glory, mind you, but to Harrow.
So where's the animated gif of :stonk: that grows larger and larger and takes over the whole screen?

Loxbourne
Apr 6, 2011

Tomorrow, doom!
But now, tea.
I'd like to note my admiration for whoever wrote Harrow's "scripture" for managing to carefully, without saying anything overt, start part of my brain screaming as it realised the implications of each line.

I remember being deeply pissed off when Mass Effect pulled the "free the hostages OR kill the mastermind" ending choice in one of its DLCs, but I see it's going to be a much harder decision this time around.

Yeowch!!! My Balls!!!
May 31, 2006

theres a fwiggin' genocide going on acwass da borda, why dont we do sumfin..? pweeez no votey for joe biden uWu

HardDiskD posted:

I think the thread has posted about the Adversary before when we talked to Glory before, but can we get the tldr on him again? I know he is bad juju, but IIRC it was in a pretty hosed up way.

Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:

it's one of the neat things about toxic shamans- shamanism is a two-way street. totems warp their followers, sure, but so too do their followers warp their totems. and the human mind is remarkably good at finding interpretations that serve themselves.

the Adversary is He Who Opposes. he is a seducer, a rabble-rouser, a rebel. if your goal is to get together a group of your friends and burn the corrupt authority and all its pointless laws to ash, you have a friend in the Adversary. much as Dragonslayer doesn't care about what you're fighting as long as it's bigger than you, Adversary doesn't care about what kind of authority you're trying to topple as long as you are opposing authority. Adversary shamans make pretty good Shadowrunners, as long as you're real careful to not make a team leader be a thing!

from the description of Harrow, he is committing the one blasphemy before the Adversary. betray, sure. seduce, sure. corrupt, sure. inflict brutal suffering on your enemies? HELL to the sure. live it up? absolutely!

but build yourself a throne with the power of the Throne-Breaker, and you go on his "dies screaming" list. that's tapping something old, dark, and horrible, and Adversary shamans don't like that guy any more than the rest of the world does.

the Adversary -can- be fine. and frequently is in the world of Shadowrun.

Toxic Adversary shamans, on the other hand, are worshipping Literally Satan, and the Adversary has Opinions about anyone who would try to emulate that loving loser

Tylana
May 5, 2011

Pillbug

KataraniSword posted:

Yeah, that’s the thing about The Adversary and toxic shamanism. The Adversary won’t punish blasphemy/profaning by relinquishing power, oh no. That’s too simple, too gentle. What the Adversary will do is give your worst enemies and best friends the power to draw and quarter you, and then make sure the process is so painful and arduous that you’ll beg for death to free you from it. A keener shaman might argue that Glory’s entire character arc has been a punishment for profaning The Adversary - not a punishment to Glory, mind you, but to Harrow.

Whether Totems/Spirits/HeraldricBeasts or whatever patron a Shaman (mechanic term) uses even exist I thought was deeply suspect? Like you could find a spirit or a great spirit who claims to be the Son of Raven or the Right Hand of The Dragonslayer, but breaking taboos and such could just as easily be an internal part of the magic users mind blocking their abilities I thought?

Yeowch!!! My Balls!!!
May 31, 2006

theres a fwiggin' genocide going on acwass da borda, why dont we do sumfin..? pweeez no votey for joe biden uWu

Tylana posted:

Whether Totems/Spirits/HeraldricBeasts or whatever patron a Shaman (mechanic term) uses even exist I thought was deeply suspect? Like you could find a spirit or a great spirit who claims to be the Son of Raven or the Right Hand of The Dragonslayer, but breaking taboos and such could just as easily be an internal part of the magic users mind blocking their abilities I thought?

oh, they exist in some format. there are entities that grant greater ease in spellcasting, and there are benefits and penalties for adhering to their dictates if you swear to them. ask the dragons why they don't go to Egypt. they will change the subject. (frequently to "hey how did you get in here" and "can you go stand under the ketchup sprayer real fast, no reason")

but trusting they are what they say they are is a bad move, because they're getting filtered through human understanding. Dragonslayer, Saint George, and Johnny Reb are three coats of paint on the same thing; behind every street shaman venerating the local Urban Combat team's mascot Dog is smiling, and Boar's eyes glint from everyone who sees their local understanding of The Defender in their dreams.

when the Passions are fully awakened, they will claim their true names again. for now, they are still sleepy, and will be slapping the snooze button for a couple of decades.

KataraniSword
Apr 22, 2008

but at least I don't have
a MLP or MSPA avatar.
I am my own man.

Tylana posted:

Whether Totems/Spirits/HeraldricBeasts or whatever patron a Shaman (mechanic term) uses even exist I thought was deeply suspect? Like you could find a spirit or a great spirit who claims to be the Son of Raven or the Right Hand of The Dragonslayer, but breaking taboos and such could just as easily be an internal part of the magic users mind blocking their abilities I thought?

In that case you could see it as less of a direct block and more of an insidious self-sabotage. Not mentally refusing the power they’ve tapped into, but basing so much of their energy into subversion that they ultimately hoist their own petard.

In that case, Harrow unquestionably brought this directly upon himself instead of arguably.

paragon1
Nov 22, 2010

FULL COMMUNISM NOW
Whether you think totems/mentors actually exist ties into how you think magic works, subject on which there are many opinions and no conclusive evidence.

kaosdrachen
Aug 15, 2011

paragon1 posted:

Whether you think totems/mentors actually exist ties into how you think magic works, subject on which there are many opinions and no conclusive evidence.

It's the whole light-as-a-particle-or-a-wave thing again, except a thousand times worse because the answer doesn't just depend on how you look at it but also who's doing the looking and possibly the phase of the moon.

By popular demand
Jul 17, 2007
Probation
Can't post for 24 hours!
Is there a spirit of calm and silence? Cause I find the idea of a shaman who believes his actions keep cthulu asleep hilarious.

paragon1
Nov 22, 2010

FULL COMMUNISM NOW
There's totems that promote stealth but not ones that put those aspects at the forefront. That's what homebrew is for.

By popular demand
Jul 17, 2007
Probation
Can't post for 24 hours!
Just imagine the faces of the corp management when they understand that a massive campaign of industrial sabotage was waged because their factories are loud enough to wake God. Or so the polite note left over say.

kaosdrachen
Aug 15, 2011

By popular demand posted:

Is there a spirit of calm and silence? Cause I find the idea of a shaman who believes his actions keep cthulu asleep hilarious.

One of the more frustrating things about Magic in Shadowrun, from an in-world academic's perspective, is that it looks like there's potentially a spirit of anything if enough people believe fervently enough in the right circumstances.

Dareon
Apr 6, 2009

by vyelkin
I'm picturing a shaman that taps into the zeitgeist of lullabies, just for their trappings being, like, soft flannel blankies and stuffed animals.

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The Lone Badger
Sep 24, 2007

kaosdrachen posted:

One of the more frustrating things about Magic in Shadowrun, from an in-world academic's perspective, is that it looks like there's potentially a spirit of anything if enough people believe fervently enough in the right circumstances.

'Enough' can potentially be just one person, if they have enough juice.

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