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Slashrat posted:I remember the live-posting for Turn, Turn, Turn and it's hilarious to think back on all the theories goons put up at the time that Ward was playing Garrett or would turn out to be a triple-agent all along. Found it for those interested! quote:Oh hey, an actually good episode of SHIELD. Took 'em long enough.
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Mar 11, 2019 12:30
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Some great posts in there; there's the preemptive anger over Ward becoming a good guy again, there's someone saying they shouldn't introduce Daisy Johnson, some wishing that Patton Oswalt had an LMD, and there's someone hoping this doesn't end up being another one season show from a Whedon. I love that Ward actually did finally get a quasi-redemption arc, except they did it long after he died, and possibly in the only way they could have sold such a character development without ruining what they did with him. Contrast: Malcolm Merlin Edit: Also I wonder if the writers ever considered Simmons for Hydra; IIRC there were a couple of clues in those last few eps that would have made sense in retrospect if they'd revealed that. I was waiting for her to reveal herself up until Ward sent them plummeting into the ocean. I'm glad they didn't though because she and Fitz are the heaviest hitters on this show. Argue fucked around with this message at 13:10 on Mar 11, 2019 |
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Mar 11, 2019 12:48
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Argue posted:Edit: Also I wonder if the writers ever considered Simmons for Hydra; IIRC there were a couple of clues in those last few eps that would have made sense in retrospect if they'd revealed that. I was waiting for her to reveal herself up until Ward sent them plummeting into the ocean. I'm glad they didn't though because she and Fitz are the heaviest hitters on this show. Made extra-funny by her starting season 2 working for Hydra anyway (albeit as a mole)
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Mar 11, 2019 12:59
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quote:nah Ward is at the very least a temporary baddie. he'll probably have a "remember who you are" moment at some point Lol I like this one
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Mar 11, 2019 14:20
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Ha "maybe Graviton will show up when they get to the Fridge."
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Mar 11, 2019 17:50
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Argue posted:It was all undoubtedly accidental but there were one or two things that you could easily pretend were nods to the show. The show sometimes gets advanced scripts then puts in a little backstory for something that happens in the script, thus looking like it's a show nod. Everyone saying AoS isn't part of the MCU needs to realize it sort of is, but it's a one-way deal. Anything in the MCU that happens hits the show (I suspect the snap will absolutely come up unless noone in universe remembers it - it's a detail they didn't have at the end of last season) but not the other way around. I think the episode that made most goons give up (myself included) was the one where the Asgardian shows up and Ward immediately "like an idiot" takes off his protection despite being warned, then admits a love triangle. It was so groan worthy people threw tomatoes at the screen from our POV. If not for Winter Soldier I'd honestly ducked out that episode. In hindsight that episode is so, so much better than I thought. For one, everything Ward does makes sense - trying to win over an Asgardian ally at any cost - and we all know how the 'love triangle' actually played out now. The entire episode was misdirection yet loaded with clues, like Ward continuing to try to kill May after the mind control effect left. I still think that ep probably cost them a bunch of viewers, but all the ultra stupid stuff in it isn't stupid on a rewatch. Blazing Ownager fucked around with this message at 18:44 on Mar 11, 2019 |
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Mar 11, 2019 18:40
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AoS is a good and fun show despite being ignored by the MCU.
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Mar 11, 2019 18:43
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Rhyno posted:AoS is a good and fun show despite being ignored by the MCU. At least it didn't get executed in it's 2nd season over corporate politics.
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Mar 11, 2019 18:45
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I miss Agent Carter 
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Mar 11, 2019 19:00
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Blazing Ownager posted:I think the episode that made most goons give up (myself included) was the one where the Asgardian shows up and Ward immediately "like an idiot" takes off his protection despite being warned, then admits a love triangle. It was so groan worthy people threw tomatoes at the screen from our POV. If not for Winter Soldier I'd honestly ducked out that episode. But I neeeed a payoooooff noooooooooooow!  CornHolio posted:I miss Agent Carter Same. That show was simply... Jarvelous.
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Mar 11, 2019 22:22
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Man, rewatching Season 1 right now and everyone is so bright-eyed and young and happy. 
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Mar 13, 2019 07:53
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Ambivalent posted:Man, rewatching Season 1 right now and everyone is so bright-eyed and young and happy. I'm doing the same and wondetring what they're gonna do for seasons 6 and 7 since most of the regular characters are dead. Hopefully they get more Dethlok. Hell I'd be happy seeing Akela again (the first shield agent they ran into with the explosive eye implant) Iceman Donnie Gill, Ghost Rider and the inhuman crysalis in the ocean don't seem to be coming back at all so I dunno what to expect at all anymore. Edit: My god, I'm such a fool! 
RareAcumen fucked around with this message at 07:11 on Mar 14, 2019 |
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Mar 13, 2019 22:37
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I can't believe people hated Season 1 so much, it's actually solid gold. All this worldbuilding - all the complaints about filler stuff when there is just layers and layers of stuff. Like the throw away Vanchat character gets like 6 references beforehand. Even without the HYDRA stuff, there's just so many layers. And all the Simmons-lying-scenes.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kDNa81CsLEo&t=52s "I like men who are about my height but heavier than meee?" And now the bit in T.R.A.C.K.S. where Simmons has the complex backstory for her cover. It's fabulous. Ambivalent fucked around with this message at 11:35 on Mar 16, 2019 |
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Mar 16, 2019 11:17
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Ambivalent posted:I can't believe people hated Season 1 so much, it's actually solid gold. All this worldbuilding - all the complaints about filler stuff when there is just layers and layers of stuff. Like the throw away Vanchat character gets like 6 references beforehand. Even without the HYDRA stuff, there's just so many layers. Again, maybe having the ability to go ten episodes in a row is coloring things but yeah, I still enjoyed the retrospective.
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Mar 17, 2019 02:26
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A lot of world building shows benefit more from both binges and rewatches since you actually know things are building and you notice things you didn't the first time around (or in the case of a fresh binge its all watched quickly enough that you're more likely to remember a small mention or something coming back up a few episodes later than if there were weeks/months between them). A big part of the reaction towards SHIELD S1 is a lot of people weren't convinced this WAS a world building narrative show at all and were viewing it as a procedural. Which in fairness, the show presented itself at least partially as in S1. If you go in knowing for sure that it isn't that, or knowing how it plays out, then its a completely different experience. Especially if you're watching the "mission of the week" episodes to see how they'll connect into bigger narratives or stories going forward. Supernatural is another show that had a very similar S1 in that regard. A LOT of "monster of the week" episodes in a very procedural S1 that end up tying together into a way bigger narrative that was always there but you can't see early on.
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Mar 17, 2019 03:32
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STAC Goat posted:A big part of the reaction towards SHIELD S1 is a lot of people weren't convinced this WAS a world building narrative show at all and were viewing it as a procedural. Which in fairness, the show presented itself at least partially as in S1. The network really wanted it to be their NCIS killer, so there's no surprise that the early going was way more procedural. And who knows if it had sustained the monster ratings the pilot got it might have stayed that way.
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Mar 17, 2019 04:16
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From what I remember one of the big issues with season one is they kept trying to get us to care about these big mysteries but didn’t give us anything to speculate on. And some of the conclusion that may have been drawn were dull. Why is Colson alive? He’s a an LMD next Who are Skyes parents? Something about China. May possibly. Who cares. Why are they not calling this nefarious organization Hydra? Show got good when they answered that one There’s a reason people lost their poo poo discussing whether Ward and May had sex. There really wasn’t anything much to talk about.
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Mar 17, 2019 04:24
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It's not even that AoS is doing things that much differently in later seasons. I think we as an audience have just learned to trust that there will be a worthwhile payoff; something the show hadn't earned yet during season 1.
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Mar 17, 2019 04:32
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howe_sam posted:The network really wanted it to be their NCIS killer, so there's no surprise that the early going was way more procedural. And who knows if it had sustained the monster ratings the pilot got it might have stayed that way. Eh. Obviously they were trying to be a procedural early on - presumably by network wishes - but unless something dramatically changed they were setting up the whole "Clairvoyant" thing under the surface from pretty much Ep1 with Centipede and Raina. Maybe if ratings had been better they would have stuck to the "procedural with a meta plot" format but I don't think it was ever a straight NCIS/L&O type procedural. Although I've never actually seen an episode of NCIS so that could have a meta plot for all I know.
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Mar 17, 2019 04:33
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I think Agents of SHIELD season 1 was making a huge gambit by establishing a kind of dull, predictable, by-the-numbers procedural feel to the show so they could then subvert that later on. After all, Ward’s betrayal isn’t as shocking if the show hasn’t convinced you he’s a stereotypical NCIS stock character. And even then, the dull procedural episodes were still pretty good dull procedural episodes.
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Mar 17, 2019 04:39
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I think the worst parts of season 1 for me was them clashing with SHIELD for having secrets or whatever. Like May's line to Fury in the plane or Coulson not coming forward about how he'd had Simmons making Dethlok parts without her realizing (Season 2) It bothers me because the idea of information not being passed to everyone seemed pretty par for the course if it's important. Can't go telling the new recruits at the Academy that actually Fury's alive right?
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Mar 17, 2019 05:18
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Ambivalent posted:I can't believe people hated Season 1 so much, it's actually solid gold. All this worldbuilding - all the complaints about filler stuff when there is just layers and layers of stuff. Like the throw away Vanchat character gets like 6 references beforehand. Even without the HYDRA stuff, there's just so many layers. Get hosed, Sitwell.
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Mar 17, 2019 06:02
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The show was spinning its wheels until Winter Soilder. It's understandable that they weren't allowed to do anything that could really hint at what was on the way but but it made the first 15 episodes feel kind of random and low stakes.
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Mar 17, 2019 13:46
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sunday at work posted:The show was spinning its wheels until Winter Soilder. It's understandable that they weren't allowed to do anything that could really hint at what was on the way but but it made the first 15 episodes feel kind of random and low stakes. have you rewatched recently, it really doesn't. Week to week it did.
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Mar 17, 2019 13:54
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My understanding is that ABC made them start the show earlier than the showrunners wanted, which is why they had to keep throwing those 2 and 3 week delays in, so that they could sync up with The Winter Soldier.
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Mar 17, 2019 14:44
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Kheldarn posted:My understanding is that ABC made them start the show earlier than the showrunners wanted, which is why they had to keep throwing those 2 and 3 week delays in, so that they could sync up with The Winter Soldier. Wasn't the Olympics also airing or some other nonsense, also causing delays?
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Mar 17, 2019 16:22
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notthegoatseguy posted:Wasn't the Olympics also airing or some other nonsense, also causing delays? That and a bunch of Presidential debates.
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Mar 17, 2019 16:36
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Yes. And there was a really long winter break. Swing this week to week was really a bit hard and I had almost quit. But there were some cool parts.
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Mar 17, 2019 18:55
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I think my argument is they weren't spinning their wheels or going too early. They wanted that time to establish things like Ward as a vanilla good guy and his relationships with the team, and Raina, Centipede, The Clairovoyant, etc as red herrings about Hydra. Without that stuff and with more of a rush to Winter Soldier it simply wouldn't have had the impact that it had. I know everyone wants to cut every show down to 8 episodes these days but that stuff was specifically rewarded time spent establishing a status quo that would be rocked. Broadcast time is something else.
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Mar 17, 2019 19:53
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I don't think season 1 was a great show week-to-week but it would absolutely have suffered as a whole without the ability to fake people out to the degree it did.
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Mar 17, 2019 19:54
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STAC Goat posted:I think my argument is they weren't spinning their wheels or going too early. They wanted that time to establish things like Ward as a vanilla good guy and his relationships with the team, and Raina, Centipede, The Clairovoyant, etc as red herrings about Hydra. Without that stuff and with more of a rush to Winter Soldier it simply wouldn't have had the impact that it had. Yeah, this is my problem. I keep seeing people make lists like "oh, only watch the Pilot, The Girl in the Flower Dress, the Hub, <whatever> and Turn Turn Turn." But skipping out on stuff like FZZT makes the show way worse - there are great moments in those. I guess it's a 'plot' vs. 'characters' thing, but the only reason half the stuff has any impact or meaning is because of The Characters. That's what filler does - filler is characters interacting, developing, demonstrating themselves to the audience, establishing beats. There are shows out there that are all exposition and climaxes and Plot, and they sometimes even seem good in the moment, but will be imminently forgettable. I saw someone complain that they hated the Framework because there were 'no stakes', but like, the stakes are literally the characters and their trauma and their experiences at that point. If you can't be invested in them by season 4, then I feel like you're barely engaging with the show, and I guess you're watching it for... the dubious special effects and action sequences???
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Mar 17, 2019 22:24
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I agree. They've crafted some great characters here and while the turns of the plot can be compelling on their own it's the characters inside them that make it work so well. Simmons killing LMD Fitz was only amazing because we'd gotten to know the characters. If they'd tried that with people the audience didn't like it would have completely fallen flat.
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Mar 17, 2019 22:29
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Oh right, I totally forgot about Lincoln. That was the other low point for the show but aside from that I still enjoyed things. Also, Jigsaw vs Jiaying, who wore their scars better?
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Mar 17, 2019 22:32
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I think its just an unfortunate byproduct of binging and streaming TV. The shorter and more condense TV shows get the more condense viewers seem to want it. At some point you give up a lot of important storytelling devices in the name of "moving things along." I'm really surprised how often I see an 8-13 episode streaming show that a ton of viewers say is too long and had too much "filler." Unfortunately the internet isn't great for attention spans. There IS such a thing as "filler", especially in 22 episode network shows and pacing is sometimes too slow. But sometimes its too fast and stories could use time to breath and really make an impact on the viewers. I very much think Agents of Shield S1 is an obvious example of that. You need all that time spent with Ward and his relationships with Skye, Coulson, May, Fitz... the Asgardian episodes where he's "influenced" to be a "different Ward... all of that comes home when he turns and does the horrible poo poo he does, and especially when he disturbingly tries to get the team to see his side of things.
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Mar 17, 2019 22:37
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RareAcumen posted:Oh right, I totally forgot about Lincoln. That was the other low point for the show but aside from that I still enjoyed things. It's amazing how much better utilized Luke Mitchell was in Blindspot, an ostensibly "more realistic" show that is actually far, far more comic booky than Agents of SHIELD.
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Mar 18, 2019 01:01
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Aleph Null posted:It's amazing how much better utilized Luke Mitchell was in Blindspot, an ostensibly "more realistic" show that is actually far, far more comic booky than Agents of SHIELD. You could argue that for a GOOD portion of that show he was the only interesting character.
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Mar 18, 2019 01:10
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Rocksicles posted:You could argue that for a GOOD portion of that show he was the only interesting character. True. Even after he was dead.
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Mar 18, 2019 01:20
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Ambivalent posted:Yeah, this is my problem. I keep seeing people make lists like "oh, only watch the Pilot, The Girl in the Flower Dress, the Hub, <whatever> and Turn Turn Turn." But skipping out on stuff like FZZT makes the show way worse - there are great moments in those. Telling new viewers to skip episodes is never a good idea with any show. Turn Turn Turn has much less of an impact if you don't know the characters. STAC Goat posted:I'm really surprised how often I see an 8-13 episode streaming show that a ton of viewers say is too long and had too much "filler." Unfortunately the internet isn't great for attention spans. A short season can be just as slow and full of filler as a long one can, it's not about attention span but what you do with the hours you have. Apart from the first season I don't feel like Shield had filler episodes in it's 22 episode seasons, while most of Marvels Netflix shows felt 2-3 episodes too long, there simply wasn't enough story for the episodes they had.
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Mar 18, 2019 07:32
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Yeah, one thing I appreciate about AoS is that for all the mountains and mountains of secrets or deceptions going on, once the audience knows about them, the show doesn't tend to keep the characters in the dark for too much longer, like later that episode, or at most the next episode, everyone is clued in on the previous episode's revelation. It was especially stark when I used to watch the CW shows like Flash or Arrow where characters would routinely hide the dumbest, stupidest secrets and then agonize over 'he's hiding something from me... how can I trust him...?" "I know I've been hiding something from her but..." for like most of the show, and every single revelation is for some reason kept hidden and agonized over in an endless cycle of information assymetry-induced anguish. AoS cuts through a LOT of that 'keeping secrets' anguish by getting through them pretty quickly. And it almost always makes good on it's teases, eventually (I mean, sure, it took Gravitonium five season to pay off, but it did!!!)
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Mar 18, 2019 07:40
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Ambivalent posted:Yeah, one thing I appreciate about AoS is that for all the mountains and mountains of secrets or deceptions going on, once the audience knows about them, the show doesn't tend to keep the characters in the dark for too much longer, like later that episode, or at most the next episode, everyone is clued in on the previous episode's revelation. I know the current seasons of the Arrowverse shows are a really low bar (LoT excepted of course) but there are so many areas in AoS where I keep thinking that the CW would probably have handled the same thing in a much worse way. Ward would be flipping back and forth between good and evil and we would have definitively seen him kill or spare the dog. Daisy would be conflicted over having powers and being Inhuman for 3 seasons. When Fitz is talking to AIDA in the cell, Simmons would misinterpret his words and angrily turn off the monitor halfway through then he'd try to explain only for her to go "I don't want to hear it Fitz!"
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Mar 18, 2019 12:43
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