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GeneX
Sep 29, 2014

Pathetic.
Awful Games Done Quick 2018 Survivor



Max Peck posted:

Okay, a, tells don't work like that; b, no, you don't, because this is still kind of the tail end of jokephase.



the secret is that jokephase never ends

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Kashuno
Oct 9, 2012

H O L E
M A D N E S S


Grimey Drawer

First thing to note is that scum mostly don't want to be in the front row, though there's minor risks of scum actually having powers that work better in the front row (eg ranged powers, which I'm assuming can fire backwards for scum. If that's not the case, then this entire point takes on double urgency, because the front row strongly neuters scum). Second thing to note is that weakly wanting to be in or out of battle is scummy, even if there are definitely builds where it would make sense. All that said, the combination of answers is what's probably most important here.


This whole paragraph is wrong

Gamerofthegame
Oct 27, 2010

Could at least flip one or two, maybe.


GeneX posted:

Quidthulhu: I honestly can't think of a powerset that gives someone a reason to both really want to fight tonight and not care much about the future (vs noting that your answer will change), so this is weird as hell. Not scummy weird though, more just...weird-weird.

Probably blowing their mana load.

PMush Perfect
Sep 30, 2009

CLUCKWORK SHOT


all I know is that i wanna shoot stuff

Monathin
Sep 1, 2011

Is this...bird costume...really necessary?



Kid figures that scum don't wanna risk being in battle at all unless they know thsy can get out alive. If they wipe the front row out, their buddies on the other side probaby have less targets. Means they're just as likely to die taking their side out.

Course, that's the Kid's thoughts, maybe logistically, it doesn't work out that way, but the way Kid figures, they'd be just as likely to die and take the whole squad with them. Seems like a net loss unless they know the odds.

Kashuno
Oct 9, 2012

H O L E
M A D N E S S


Grimey Drawer

There is not a minor risk of scum having powers that benefit them in the front row, itís almost a given that there will be scum who have powers that will function better in the front or have the potential to dramatically weaken our front line. You canít make any inference on alignment based on line selection, and even implying you can do so is dangerous and creates a possible blind spot for future reads. There is no reason (outside of knowledge youíve obtained outside of thread) to assume front row neuters scum, period.

To the next point: wanting to weakly be in or out of battle is a sensible option. Someone may have an ability that they think has a strong use in battle while simultaneously having one that may have a strong use at home, and be unsure which of those abilities is more useful at this point. They may be specifically willing to go into battle early but not want to draw attention to themselves from readers in the other thread. The battle questions are l, as of now, simply battle questions that KB can use to draw combat mappings from. Treating them as anything deeper on face is dangerous at best and a false narrative at worst.

They are worth referencing in the future, and they are worth referencing in the case people avoid answering or answe abnormally, but that is all

Tobbs Gnawed
Apr 4, 2007

Why won't he die?


Since the question has been broached:

For attackers, even ranged, you can hit the enemy back row from the front row. There may be players who can do positive/investigative things from the back row only, but in the rules it explicitly states that ranged SCUM can only attack the row directly in front of them.

So, why prefer the back row if you're town?

Also, while it doesn't really matter where I go, front lines is probably best for me.

That being said, there's nothing implicitly townie about preferring the front row, as melee scum will probably want to damage the front rank as much as possible due to both ranged and melee Texans hitting the front row. A melee scum in the back row will probably deal nasty damage, but it's much less likely to result in a kill.

Kashuno
Oct 9, 2012

H O L E
M A D N E S S


Grimey Drawer

CAN YOU SERIOUSLY, seriously not think of any reason why Town would want to be in the back

Slaan
Mar 16, 2009

Why, yes,
I will poke your Gushing Spring Point!


Pillbug

Healing, giving front row armor/shields, giving damage boosts, etc could all be useful back row roles

And scum with melee skills can almost certainly hit their own row and/or back row. Not being able to would be silly

Kashuno
Oct 9, 2012

H O L E
M A D N E S S


Grimey Drawer

Slaan posted:

Healing, giving front row armor/shields, giving damage boosts, etc could all be useful back row roles

And scum with melee skills can almost certainly hit their own row and/or back row. Not being able to would be silly

Idk who you are but

The Lord of Hats
Aug 22, 2010



I don't get why you're assuming that scum ranged attacks will be more powerful than scum melee. More targets, sire, but that's not the same.

I don't want to reference Qal too much, because this isn't the same game, but in that one the scum were ecstatic to get anyone into battle regardless of where it was. My best attack was ranged, but I was only ever put in the front rank--but I didn't care. Ecause it meant more damage than being out of battle.

Slaan
Mar 16, 2009

Why, yes,
I will poke your Gushing Spring Point!


Pillbug

Kashuno posted:

Idk who you are but

I'm scum hth



I'm a well known cannibal. Also a complete mafia newbie

Slaan fucked around with this message at Dec 31, 2017 around 04:21

GeneX
Sep 29, 2014

Pathetic.
Awful Games Done Quick 2018 Survivor



Kashuno posted:

There is not a minor risk of scum having powers that benefit them in the front row, itís almost a given that there will be scum who have powers that will function better in the front or have the potential to dramatically weaken our front line. You canít make any inference on alignment based on line selection, and even implying you can do so is dangerous and creates a possible blind spot for future reads. There is no reason (outside of knowledge youíve obtained outside of thread) to assume front row neuters scum, period.

More people can hit you when you're in the front, this is bad for scum who very much want to not be hit. Of course there are probably exceptions to everything but 6 people potentially hitting you vs. 3 is a significant difference. The "neutering scum" thing was my musing on how sucm ranged attacks worked from that front row, since I don't know if Podima's giant rules post actually explained them and I've never played a soldiers game before.

Anyway, it's less that people are probably scum for wanting to be in back, and more that people are likely town if they're happy to be in front. The survivability argument is better as an argument for why someone is on the side of the angels for their willingness to die than the converse, since there are definitely town members who very specifically want to be in battle and not die, but there aren't likely to be many (if any) scum who are good with being shot to death by their texan pals.

quote:

To the next point: wanting to weakly be in or out of battle is a sensible option. Someone may have an ability that they think has a strong use in battle while simultaneously having one that may have a strong use at home, and be unsure which of those abilities is more useful at this point. They may be specifically willing to go into battle early but not want to draw attention to themselves from readers in the other thread. The battle questions are l, as of now, simply battle questions that KB can use to draw combat mappings from. Treating them as anything deeper on face is dangerous at best and a false narrative at worst.

They are worth referencing in the future, and they are worth referencing in the case people avoid answering or answe abnormally, but that is all

That is a great reason why your answer might change in the future, but not why you don't want to commit to a choice now, which is why there was a "my answer might change in the future and for a specific reason" option in the 2nd question. Which was only picked by the "I weakly want to fight from a scum-advantageous position, with an out" duo or Moatilata who said they didn't want to be in battle yet anyway.

What I'm reading in your post is "there's specific situations in which a given interpretation of someone's answers might be wrong, and also they aren't intended to reveal things, so they're valueless" which is a very bad argument. They're supplements to scumhunting and reasons for initial suspicion, not damning indictments unto themselves.

PMush Perfect
Sep 30, 2009

CLUCKWORK SHOT


i wanna be in the back so i can shoot texans in the face

Tobbs Gnawed
Apr 4, 2007

Why won't he die?


Slaan posted:

Healing, giving front row armor/shields, giving damage boosts, etc could all be useful back row roles

And scum with melee skills can almost certainly hit their own row and/or back row. Not being able to would be silly

Melee scum can only attack their own row. Ranged scum can only attack the row directly in front of them.

It's in the rules.

PMush Perfect
Sep 30, 2009

CLUCKWORK SHOT


from halfway across the country

i have a thing

Gamerofthegame
Oct 27, 2010

Could at least flip one or two, maybe.


Slaan posted:

I'm scum hth



I'm a well known cannibal

trap sprung!!

##vote slaan

for actual detective work tho

I feel like tobbs is doing this weird kind of disinformation thing, like

Tobbs Gnawed posted:

Dayvig is one of Bif's questions.

I think it's generally a good idea to look at the other thread, mostly because once we have some flips we can start to piece together who in the other thread is most likely on our team.

Unfortunately we shouldn't share those suspicions, because it could direct the Texans towards our allies. Still, it might help individuals choose their targets.

Tobbs Gnawed posted:

It's only a soft scumtell if he's more interested in Bif's posting than KB's, since she would be his boss if he's scum.

Tobbs Gnawed posted:

Since the question has been broached:

For attackers, even ranged, you can hit the enemy back row from the front row. There may be players who can do positive/investigative things from the back row only, but in the rules it explicitly states that ranged SCUM can only attack the row directly in front of them.

So, why prefer the back row if you're town?

Also, while it doesn't really matter where I go, front lines is probably best for me.

That being said, there's nothing implicitly townie about preferring the front row, as melee scum will probably want to damage the front rank as much as possible due to both ranged and melee Texans hitting the front row. A melee scum in the back row will probably deal nasty damage, but it's much less likely to result in a kill.

all feel like less then genuine observations to feel pro-town in the beginning


ps there's like a whole 24 hours or something usually to skim the thread for sick ability tells if need be there isn't much of a reason to read the hill billies now

Podima
Nov 4, 2009

Guilt is an outmoded concept, the refuge of those who have yet to embrace the fact that their path is the correct one.


Slaan posted:

I'm scum hth



I'm a well known cannibal. Also a complete mafia newbie

This post being edited has been addressed as a newbie mistake and restored to its original state.

GeneX
Sep 29, 2014

Pathetic.
Awful Games Done Quick 2018 Survivor



Mafia Edit:

If you're confused on why I'm confused about scum ranged attacks, here's Pod's notes on it:

"SCUM players can use MELEE abilities on the same rank and RANGED abilities on the next rank, so a SCUM player in REAR A could use MELEE on the REAR A rank and RANGED abilities on the FRONT A rank."

What I got from that is that scum meleers can murk people in the same row, but it's unclear if the scum rangers in the front row can shoot the back row (while the opposite is definitely true). I suspect that the answer is yes, but if the answer is no, i.e. scum in the front row [i]can't[i] turn around and shoot the rearguard, then being in the back row also gives scum more targeting opportunities.

Gamerofthegame
Oct 27, 2010

Could at least flip one or two, maybe.


PMush Perfect posted:

from halfway across the country

i have a thing

is it a gun

PMush Perfect
Sep 30, 2009

CLUCKWORK SHOT


lol u hosed up

Tobbs Gnawed
Apr 4, 2007

Why won't he die?


Gamerofthegame posted:

trap sprung!!

##vote slaan

for actual detective work tho

I feel like tobbs is doing this weird kind of disinformation thing, like




all feel like less then genuine observations to feel pro-town in the beginning


ps there's like a whole 24 hours or something usually to skim the thread for sick ability tells if need be there isn't much of a reason to read the hill billies now

I'll admit the second quote is dumb since a re-re-read of the rules indicates Bif can talk OOT with scum in our thread (and KB can do the same with our brave men and women behind enemy lines).

PMush Perfect
Sep 30, 2009

CLUCKWORK SHOT


no i bend over and kill people with goatse

GeneX
Sep 29, 2014

Pathetic.
Awful Games Done Quick 2018 Survivor



Tobbs Gnawed posted:

I'll admit the second quote is dumb since a re-re-read of the rules indicates Bif can talk OOT with scum in our thread (and KB can do the same with our brave men and women behind enemy lines).

wait what

wait does that actually change any of my analysis, I don't think so

Kashuno
Oct 9, 2012

H O L E
M A D N E S S


Grimey Drawer

Gene you are objectively wrong

Kashuno
Oct 9, 2012

H O L E
M A D N E S S


Grimey Drawer

Or you know from outside the thread that scum do not want to be in the front row because they donít have the stats to be up there

Either way, not a good look

Quidthulhu
Dec 17, 2003

Stand down, men! It's only smooching!


I am once again realizing I have zero idea how Soldiers game work

I am real certain Kashuno is town, though, that angry analysis infodump is towny af

Kashuno
Oct 9, 2012

H O L E
M A D N E S S


Grimey Drawer

I...am concerned quid :P

GeneX
Sep 29, 2014

Pathetic.
Awful Games Done Quick 2018 Survivor



Kashuno posted:

Gene you are objectively wrong

no i'm not

Your Personal Muse
Oct 5, 2010

12 Large Brother

Thereís a lot of words in this thread. Of those, I didnít like Maxís for insinuating I wasnít going to try to fight or play for whatever weird reason.

Quidthulhu
Dec 17, 2003

Stand down, men! It's only smooching!


Kashuno posted:

I...am concerned quid :P

My sense is that you are one of a handful of people that understands how these games work.

My worry is that that ďhandfulĒ I am identifying is, in actuality, most of the game and I am an idiot

Kashuno
Oct 9, 2012

H O L E
M A D N E S S


Grimey Drawer

GeneX posted:

no i'm not

Yes, you actually are. Iím not going to type up an essay of my experience with soldiers games but trust me on this: using row selection as a credential in any way to gauge towniness, especially this early on is wrong

Tobbs Gnawed
Apr 4, 2007

Why won't he die?


Your Personal Muse posted:

There’s a lot of words in this thread. Of those, I didn’t like Max’s for insinuating I wasn’t going to try to fight or play for whatever weird reason.

Is your only opinion aimed at...a mod?

Your Personal Muse
Oct 5, 2010

12 Large Brother

Just listen to dumb stupid idiotic Kash

Slaan
Mar 16, 2009

Why, yes,
I will poke your Gushing Spring Point!


Pillbug

Well sure, but otoh kill all battle lovers. Something off about them imo. They LIKE killing!

Gamerofthegame
Oct 27, 2010

Could at least flip one or two, maybe.


tbh assuming people want to play optimally is probably wrong too

people are statistically bad at numbers

Tobbs Gnawed
Apr 4, 2007

Why won't he die?


Also thread is only 5 pages. "This is too much to read." is a bit inappropriate at this point and rings false.

##vote YPM

Your Personal Muse
Oct 5, 2010

12 Large Brother

Tobbs Gnawed posted:

Is your only opinion aimed at...a mod?

Are you saying I donít have enough opinions...in my second post?

An Max Peck is not a mod

Your Personal Muse
Oct 5, 2010

12 Large Brother

Tobbs Gnawed posted:

Also thread is only 5 pages. "This is too much to read." is a bit inappropriate at this point and rings false.

##vote YPM

Please point to where I said ďThis is too much to read.Ē

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Kashuno
Oct 9, 2012

H O L E
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Grimey Drawer

Your Personal Muse posted:

Just listen to dumb stupid idiotic Kash

Love you

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