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Necrothatcher posted:I just finished an article about MGS2 saying pretty much the same thing. Most people focus on the story, but MGS2 has super deep gameplay that the majority of people skip by tranqing their way through the game. I think MGS2 suffers from some of the same problems that MGS3 does. When you tranq everyone in the head and move on, it's simple and straightforward. MGS3 is deep but to get to a lot of those mechanics, you have to go out of your way to actually enjoy them. A good example is throwing snakes. To do that, you have to have the snake in your backpack then select it and then throw it, which requires going to the menu, or you can just shoot the guard in the head with a tranq that would normally have gotten scared and ran off from the snake. There are entire weapons that feel like a chore to use in both games. Its why I think they really nailed the gameplay with MGS4 and 5.
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Aug 1, 2020 03:57
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| # ? Apr 26, 2024 02:36 |
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TPP is the only MG/MGS game that I've really liked. And somehow the hosed up, feverdream-esq non-ending kinda works. And I liked the twist, even though I suspected it from discussion of the trailer
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Aug 1, 2020 19:57
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Th ending works only because the game never truly ends. It's a more apt ending than the obligatory monologue-MG fight-monologue ending that Kojima would have made for it
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Aug 1, 2020 20:34
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Necrothatcher posted:I just finished an article about MGS2 saying pretty much the same thing. Most people focus on the story, but MGS2 has super deep gameplay that the majority of people skip by tranqing their way through the game. So, I generally really enjoy your writeups, but you do very little exploration of the gameplay mechanics and instead gush about them without actually explaining much of it and why the gameplay is so deep.
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Aug 2, 2020 08:50
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I love MGS gameplay even more so than the story so I'd love to read some indepth stuff about the AI and how stuff works.
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Aug 2, 2020 09:42
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Timby posted:So, I generally really enjoy your writeups, but you do very little exploration of the gameplay mechanics and instead gush about them without actually explaining much of it and why the gameplay is so deep. Noted! WaltherFeng posted:I love MGS gameplay even more so than the story so I'd love to read some indepth stuff about the AI and how stuff works. What I like about it is that the MGS2+3 guards behave broadly realistically while still being very easy to manipulate in unrealistic ways. They have three basic active modes (patrol, curious and attack) and the key to a lot of the later VR missions is being able to keep juggling them between patrol and curious in order to manipulate where they are/where they're looking. As a basic tactic you can peel guards away from a group by a series of knocks on walls and then take them out. On the most advanced level... well: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Le23bsVURds I can't get close to that, but on the more advanced sneaking missions in VR there's a lot of near-perfect timing required to thread the needle between guards' awareness cones. It's still 2001-era AI so they're not likely to surprise you, but there's also a lot of smoke and mirrors to make them seem smarter than they are. Being able to hear their radio chatter and lots of dialogue from them helps, and the alert phase 'clearing' sequences where attack teams check all the corners and hiding places looks really impressive (though I suspect these are scripted routines created for specific rooms rather than AI 'thinking' about where to look). Check out this cool lecture from the MGS2 development on clearing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3mm2whuYLU4
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Aug 2, 2020 10:42
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I think the Game Maker's Toolkit guy did a video (or a miniseries) on stealth and his view was that the most satisfying stealth games have, as you say, very clearly defined behaviour states for enemies and clear communication about when they've noticed something. "Huh?! What was that noise?"
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Aug 2, 2020 12:07
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MGS has always been very good about this without relying on any obstructive HUD indicators. Exception being MGSV. If a guard spots something suspicious, they always comment on it and you can hear it very clearly or read the subtitles. I didnt realize how important this was until I played games that didnt use this.
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Aug 2, 2020 14:33
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Homora Gaykemi posted:"He mentioned something interesting. General Foods Corporation is pursuing new research. He claims that what they've been doing in White Plains is the missing piece. A coffee to surpass Instant Type II." I've now read this to the wife in my best Snake voice 5 times.
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Aug 2, 2020 16:38
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I was showing MGS2 to my friend not too long ago as it's my favourite game of all time. As I was just about to enter Deck-2 on the tanker, in order to highlight how so many things in the game are interactive, I playfully shot the bag of flour that's sitting by the door just after you take out the bomb sensors... but I forgot that flour makes Snake sneeze, so while I was waiting for the guard in the next area to move past (after smugly telling my friend that I knew not to look around the corner as it makes the stray pipe fall down and cause him to investigate) I got caught. I wasn't even mad, I just keep forgetting how much stuff there is to the gameplay in 2 even though I've played it countless times.
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Aug 2, 2020 16:40
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WaltherFeng posted:MGS has always been very good about this without relying on any obstructive HUD indicators. Exception being MGSV. I don't know that I agree with this. What is the soliton radar system if not an obstructive HUD indicator? I always felt like the usefulness of the radar was both a blessing and curse, as you could basically play most of MGS1 with your eyes locked onto the top-right corner of the screen. It was interesting to see Kojima experiment with ways of moving away from it in subsequent games, forcing you to play without it for brief segments in 2 and then removing it altogether in 3-5 with other, sometimes optional systems which presented similar information without necessarily monopolising your attention.
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Aug 2, 2020 18:06
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Hedgehog Pie posted:(after smugly telling my friend that I knew not to look around the corner as it makes the stray pipe fall down and cause him to investigate) the what now?
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Aug 2, 2020 18:11
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Necrothatcher posted:the what now? There's a hallway near the end of the Tanker chapter, I think it's the one immediately before the Marines' room, where every single guard has a weird gimmick unique trait. One guy has headphones and is listening to music, so he won't react to anything but music. Another guy periodically dozes and loses his cone of vision when he nods off. and I forgot the other guys' things? It's either that one or the hall before it where there's a bulkhead passage that if you do corner view around the corner, Snake will like knock a pipe with his knee and try to catch it but fumble and it clatters, causing them to come investigate. e: it's this sort of stupid detail that I think most people playing casually will hardly notice, and you might not even fully appreciate on several playthroughs, but that if you do notice, you will be stunned by, that I think is the hallmark of good Metal Gear Solid, and part of what makes the games special. In lesser games, this sort of stuff would have like glowing arrows pointing to it, because the devs would be reminded how DUMB it is to put content most people won't notice, and so every time you'd replay the game, Snake would knock over the pipe every time, etc. Ambivalent fucked around with this message at 19:39 on Aug 2, 2020 |
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Aug 2, 2020 19:36
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I can't believe I am still learning new things about MGS2. Using the player 2 controller to redirect the wind during the bomb sniping sequence blew my mind too.
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Aug 2, 2020 20:51
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Necrothatcher posted:Using the player 2 controller to redirect the wind during the bomb sniping sequence blew my mind too. Necrothatcher posted:I can't believe I am still learning new things about MGS2.
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Aug 2, 2020 20:59
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https://twitter.com/didyouknowgamin/status/1290006957277945858?s=21
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Aug 2, 2020 21:11
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I go with strategic camo while shirtless, as befits my largely German ancestry
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Aug 2, 2020 21:23
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Ambivalent posted:e: it's this sort of stupid detail that I think most people playing casually will hardly notice, and you might not even fully appreciate on several playthroughs, but that if you do notice, you will be stunned by, that I think is the hallmark of good Metal Gear Solid, and part of what makes the games special. From what I've read and watched about the games' development, Kojima gives every member of his team a notebook and asks them to write any small ideas they have while working on their sections of the game. At the end of the day he reads the notebooks and picks the best ideas. I reckon that's how you get so many neat little touches and tiny details in MGS.
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Aug 2, 2020 21:33
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Ambivalent posted:e: it's this sort of stupid detail that I think most people playing casually will hardly notice, and you might not even fully appreciate on several playthroughs, but that if you do notice, you will be stunned by, that I think is the hallmark of good Metal Gear Solid, and part of what makes the games special. I mean, it's also the kind of stuff that slows down development and leads to cost overruns and cutting out chunks of the back half of the games. Like, of the 6 mainline MGS games, half have very obvious "Oh poo poo, we forgot Act 3" moments. It's not the sole cause, by any means, but it is a definite contributor. Unreal_One fucked around with this message at 06:10 on Aug 3, 2020 |
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Aug 3, 2020 04:49
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Unreal_One posted:I mean, it's also the kind of stuff that slows down development and leads to cost overruns and cutting out chunks of the back half of the games. Like, of the 6 mainline MGS games, half have very obvious "Oh poo poo, we forgot Act 3" moments. It's not the sole cause, by any means, but it is a definite contributor. Which 3 are you thinking of? TPP is the only obvious one I can think of and I'd put that down to Konami mismanagement more than development style.
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Aug 3, 2020 08:47
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Necrothatcher posted:Which 3 are you thinking of? TPP is the only obvious one I can think of and I'd put that down to Konami mismanagement more than development style.
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Aug 3, 2020 11:37
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Curious about something regarding Survive, does the time you set out for a mission have an effect on the enemies you face? Because sometimes I’ve found the area crawling with Wanderers while other times there’s barely any at all. Also, any tips on getting through the 15 or so minute defense mission prior to retrieving Sahelanthropus?
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Aug 3, 2020 11:49
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dont waste all your fences before the morter zombies show up, focus on killing the big bomb zombies, and once the morters show up hide against the rock to the right of the opening and use a spear to kick any wayward morters away from the uh teleporter or whatever is spawning in good luck because that mission is a slog and it took me multiple tries to get through it because i would get overrun in the last three minutes, and is also why i just youtubed the ending cutscenes for survive rather than play the final battle
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Aug 3, 2020 12:09
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DACK FAYDEN posted:4 for sure, acts 4 and 5 are completely unfinished skeletons to hang boss fights, cutscenes, and Shadow Moses nostalgia on (which doesn't mean they aren't enjoyable, just that there's no gameplay there outside of the boss fights) 2 also, half of the Big Shell is entirely inaccessible.
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Aug 3, 2020 16:15
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Many MGS fans are hazy on the last parts of the games because many of us stayed up all night to finish it and its all a haze of sleepiness and weed smoke
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Aug 3, 2020 22:03
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The last boss of MGS4 kept killing me over and over and over. You only had one health bar (as I recall) to get through all four of his, he kept changing up his pattern, and slipping up meant do it all from the beginning, fucko. Ended up taking me like an hour And then came the ending  By the time I was done it was the wee hours of the morning
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Aug 3, 2020 22:43
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0 rows returned posted:dont waste all your fences before the morter zombies show up, focus on killing the big bomb zombies, and once the morters show up hide against the rock to the right of the opening and use a spear to kick any wayward morters away from the uh teleporter or whatever is spawning in Thanks, though from what I gather that section is probably the worst part of the game. Not sure how annoying the Lord of Dust fight is but it is nice that the game gives you the option to just skip it entirely and jump into the portal yourself. Also, is it ever explained as to how and why there’s a Metal Gear Sahelanthropus just lying around in Dite?
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Aug 3, 2020 22:48
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Larryb posted:Thanks, though from what I gather that section is probably the worst part of the game. Not sure how annoying the Lord of Dust fight is but it is nice that the game gives you the option to just skip it entirely and jump into the portal yourself. Neither fight is really hard, you just have to prepare properly and have a good plan. The Lord of Dust only took me a couple of tries but the first unsuccessful attempt didn't feel like a total wash, I was definitely able to learn from my mistakes and execute better the second time. And yes, it does explain that. It explains pretty much everything. In great detail. It's silly and great.
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Aug 3, 2020 23:28
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DeathChicken posted:The last boss of MGS4 kept killing me over and over and over. You only had one health bar (as I recall) to get through all four of his, he kept changing up his pattern, and slipping up meant do it all from the beginning, fucko. Ended up taking me like an hour The ending's reputation preceded itself by the time I played, and thank God it did. What a disaster of an ending.
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Aug 4, 2020 00:01
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Gotcha, so I’ve heard that in the postgame you can dig for Iris Energy at Base Camp, what exactly does that do for you and does doing so attract Wanderers like it did in the main campaign? Also, aside from two optional boss fights is there anything particularly interesting/worth doing in the postgame?
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Aug 4, 2020 00:02
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Hedgehog Pie posted:The ending's reputation preceded itself by the time I played, and thank God it did. What a disaster of an ending. *heavy sigh* It’s that time again. MGS4 actually owns.
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Aug 4, 2020 00:10
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nO
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Aug 4, 2020 00:15
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Larryb posted:Gotcha, so I’ve heard that in the postgame you can dig for Iris Energy at Base Camp, what exactly does that do for you and does doing so attract Wanderers like it did in the main campaign? Digging at base is mainly a way to unlock new stuff. The post game content unlocks subclasses, which are pretty fun. If you like the game for more than just the story it's definitely worth doing, even though there are one or two speedbumps in there that might require you to approach them slightly differently than you expect.
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Aug 4, 2020 00:26
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Approximately one-half of MGS4 owns.
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Aug 4, 2020 00:28
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Kibayasu posted:Approximately one-half of MGS4 owns. MGS2?
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Aug 4, 2020 00:34
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Kibayasu posted:Approximately one-half of MGS4 owns. The game would be significantly more fun if Chapter 3 wasn't on-rails e: w/e the foggy Euro city chapter is, that one...don't @ me
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Aug 4, 2020 00:44
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MGS4 is uneven, but amazing theres so much nonsense but the way it all comes together in the microwave corridor sequence was amazing
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Aug 4, 2020 00:44
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"Amazing" and "owns" are a little hyperbolic, imo... I too want to like that game, but it doesn't hold up to the first 3.
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Aug 4, 2020 00:46
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it absolutely does own it wasnt as good as MGS3, but, like, what game is? resident evil 4 i guess.
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Aug 4, 2020 00:48
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4 still does own. It was an amazing experience the first time. I do wish chapter 3 was much better though too. There was so much potential with Snake sneaking around a civilian city. There’s some aspect of the engine that I like even more than V. It’s a drat shame we never got VR missions for it or something like that.
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Aug 4, 2020 01:08
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