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There's also an important distinction in that actual historical Valentinian Christianity (along with most of its close theological relatives, because there's no such thing as "Gnosticism" as a singular religion) doesn't posit the Demiurge as the true good God, just the creator of the material world, sometimes portrayed more as a pathetic creature mired in self-delusion than an evil tyrant. It's also kind of elitist (most people are incapable of true salvation) and still very renunciatory (the world is absolute garbage and no good comes of engaging with it.) Pop cultural "Gnosticism" is more of a mishmash of Enlightenment and Romantic ideas dancing around in the clothes of Christianity. Setting aside the greater Devilman continuity for a second, note that the condemnation of God in Crybaby is that he's "cold." This is not how a gnostic Christian would describe the demiurge, quite the opposite, this is how they would describe the true "good God" who is unimaginably remote and uninvolved, while in the mean time the Demiurge is a crazed narcissist and rapist. Similarly Satan's great tragedy is that he doesn't recognize himself as an emotional being, and the thing that makes Akira so special is that he sees this in Ryo even when Ryo himself does not. In some Gnostic mythologies, the serpent is a hero because it encourages humanity to recognize its own divine nature, although again they would probably understand this to mean something very different -- less about emotion and more about recognizing our own capacity for reason, for recognizing moral truth according to an absolute universal order hidden behind the messy illusion of material reality. This also kind of ties in to the argument going on in this thread right now, because Crybaby is waaay over on the Romantic side of things and trying to understand what its message is by utilitarian calculus of whether humanity did more evil or more good, or complaining that capital-G Good does not triumph and justice reign forever and therefore the series must be completely nihilistic is, at best, using the wrong framework to understand it (the former view being too Enlightenment to get the point, the latter too Christian.) (To clarify, believing in one of those other frameworks is a perfectly valid reason not to like the show, but they're a bad way to get what it's saying on its own terms.) Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 23:34 on Feb 16, 2018 |
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Feb 16, 2018 23:29
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DisDisDis posted:from last page Just a little reminder that Devilman Lady may very well tell a completely different story with a different message from the original Devilman. Just because one story is explicitly about something doesn't mean the other (related) story is about the same thing. Additionally, this isn't the original Devilman, anyway. It's Devilman as told by Yuasa, who has barely any biblical concerns to begin with, imo. Darth Walrus posted:Ah, whoops, missed that. Yep, thought so. He can just neglect Lucifer's male half? What a copout.  turtlecrunch posted:4) Aside from Akira, are all demon-possessed people sinners in a very strict sense (Miko going to the party and being jealous, Taro sneaking on the computer to look at party boobs)? Are there any innocent people that become demons? Akira's dad said he wanted to eat his mom, but I wasn't sure if that was the demon talking or not. I think most people might say Taro was innocent, but I am trying to gauge the in-universe definition of sin. It seems to me like none of the demons were actually sinners because the show doesn't condemn them for their sins. Real sinners, such as the rapist, end up staying human. This is why hunting down the demons is so futile. You can't tell how sinful someone is just because they look weird. Giving into your sexual desires during the ritual just seemed to awaken the demonic side in some people. For Miko, it is her repressed romantic love for Miki that translates into really horrible toxic relationships with men. This is why she turns into a spider. Black widows kill the male during sex. So, only a lesbian spider can have a healthy relationship.  We don't really have enough context to understand what was going on with Akira's dad, I think. And More fucked around with this message at 23:46 on Feb 16, 2018 |
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Feb 16, 2018 23:38
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turtlecrunch posted:3) This isn't really a question so much as a comment. I liked the show a lot, and short animes like this tend to be really tight, but I was confused as to the point of Miko and Koda. Miko never gets beyond "mad at other girl for being better at running, then in the 2nd-to-last episode (but also likes her)". Then she dies. Koda has the whole death of his boyfriend, then he gets a little restless staying at Akira's hideout and says gently caress it, I'll just be a demon to survive? Then he dies. I feel like there was some additional elaboration on these two that was missing. But maybe I am not understanding something. I really liked Miko's snapdragons turning into little skulls when they dried up (something snapdragons actually do). imo miko and koda mostly show the two possible paths a devilman can take. miko is crazy vain and petty and that's her primary motivation until she realizes that there's someone she loves, while koda lost his love and thus succumbed to base temptation and a desire to just be on the "winning" side. akira is a devilman who had love in him all along. miko is a devilman who discovered love. koda is a devilman who lost love.
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Feb 16, 2018 23:38
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Gnosticism is also anti-semitic; by saying that the God of the Old Testament is evil you're condemning the whole Jewish religion Marcion thew out the whole Old Testament from his canon because he didn't want Christianity to be "tainted" with Jewish ideas
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Feb 16, 2018 23:40
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ninjewtsu posted:imo miko and koda mostly show the two possible paths a devilman can take. miko is crazy vain and petty and that's her primary motivation until she realizes that there's someone she loves, while koda lost his love and thus succumbed to base temptation and a desire to just be on the "winning" side. And the Devilman Cat was a cat that had no food, which is pretty unacceptable.
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Feb 16, 2018 23:41
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I just posted it cuz people keep bringing up Gnosticism. I don't think crybaby is at all following lady on that point. (Nor do I think Lady is really Gnostic in the end.)
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Feb 16, 2018 23:46
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Smoking Crow posted:by saying that the God of the Old Testament is evil you're condemning the whole Jewish religion i can't say i agree with this, "god is beyond our comprehension but frequently appears to be kind of a dick and we should absolutely look at some of the weird questionable stuff he does in detail, and ask 'hey, why is it ok for god to do this?'" is pretty foundational to my understanding of judaism. "hey, why is it ok for god to do this?" being a question that is ok to ask implies that "hey, it isn't ok for god to do this" is at least a somewhat valid conclusion to come to (though hopefully you won't)
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Feb 16, 2018 23:47
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in my admittedly amateur experience Jewish theology is a lot better at processing the possibility that God is kind of a jerk than Christianity is
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Feb 16, 2018 23:48
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Old Testament G-Dawg seems like an rear end in a top hat to me, tbh. Does that makes me anti-semitic?
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Feb 16, 2018 23:49
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Is Devilman Crybaby Catholic or Protestant
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Feb 16, 2018 23:52
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DisDisDis posted:Is Devilman Crybaby Catholic or Protestant neither, but it dumps on Catholicism a lot harder
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Feb 16, 2018 23:52
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100 degrees Calcium posted:Old Testament G-Dawg seems like an rear end in a top hat to me, tbh. Does that makes me anti-semitic? when i was in middle school/high school that was my take on god and i consider myself at least vaguely jewish so i'd say probably not
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Feb 16, 2018 23:53
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turtlecrunch posted:Hi I watched this yesterday since it looked like it was 2d and not one of those lovely cgi Netflix animes. I wasn't really...prepared. 1. Wam's charm was just that, a charm. 2. Kukun died at the party. The body at her apartment was her grandmother who had passed away for reasons unknown. 6. He was just an rear end in a top hat.
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Feb 17, 2018 00:08
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And More posted:Giving into your sexual desires during the ritual just seemed to awaken the demonic side in some people. For Miko, it is her repressed romantic love for Miki that translates into really horrible toxic relationships with men. This is why she turns into a spider. Black widows kill the male during sex. So, only a lesbian spider can have a healthy relationship. lol! Beautiful.
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Feb 17, 2018 02:58
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I just recently finished watching Debiruman. My new life career goal is to be an anti-psychic shield rocketboot spearman.
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Feb 17, 2018 06:42
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MonsterEnvy posted:
But his hand was sitting outside her apartment wasn't it? I think they left it ambiguous as to what actually killed him on purpose. It could have been other demons at the party or it could have been Miko. I think the fact that it was outside their apartments hints more that she killed him.
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Feb 17, 2018 13:11
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one of the things i liked is that the demons weren't really that powerful and the devilmen weren't humanity's only hope of being able to fight them like, for sure, they're very strong and can kill a person very fast, but they were pretty vulnerable, and would quickly go down against people who had guns and were prepared to face them even in that last big battle where the demons overrun the last fortress of the human race, one of their most powerful still got owned by three dudes with rocket spears i guess most of the damage that lead to humanity going extinct was self-inflicted, since everyone was nuking each other and bombing their own cities and poo poo Solice Kirsk posted:But his hand was sitting outside her apartment wasn't it? I think they left it ambiguous as to what actually killed him on purpose. It could have been other demons at the party or it could have been Miko. I think the fact that it was outside their apartments hints more that she killed him. i think his hand was shown in a flashback, it'd be decomposed if it was just lying on the floor of her apartment all this time. my guess is that poor butterfuly man was torn apart by that demon that appeared at the end of episode 4, before miko transformed herself and fought her way out just like Akira RottenK fucked around with this message at 14:20 on Feb 17, 2018 |
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Feb 17, 2018 14:16
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I haven’t watched this show, is it good y/n
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Feb 19, 2018 23:23
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y
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Feb 19, 2018 23:23
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TheKingofSprings posted:I haven’t watched this show, is it good y/n No, but it's entertaining at times.
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Feb 19, 2018 23:24
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TheKingofSprings posted:I haven’t watched this show, is it good y/n
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Feb 19, 2018 23:31
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TheKingofSprings posted:I haven’t watched this show, is it good y/n very y
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Feb 19, 2018 23:35
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The manga is better.
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Feb 20, 2018 00:12
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Solice Kirsk posted:But his hand was sitting outside her apartment wasn't it? I think they left it ambiguous as to what actually killed him on purpose. It could have been other demons at the party or it could have been Miko. I think the fact that it was outside their apartments hints more that she killed him. The hand was in the party area if you take a look.
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Feb 20, 2018 00:49
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TheKingofSprings posted:I haven’t watched this show, is it good y/n y
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Feb 20, 2018 11:07
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Yes, for the most part. It's messy as gently caress, needs editing and could tell its story better, but overall, more good than there is bad and has a fantastic soundtrack.
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Feb 20, 2018 11:56
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MonsterEnvy posted:The hand was in the party area if you take a look. Wink wink nudge nudge, say no more.  Kokoro Wish posted:Yes, for the most part. It's messy as gently caress, needs editing and could tell its story better, but overall, more good than there is bad and has a fantastic soundtrack. On a scale from one to hot gay giant spider sex, I'd give it a ten.
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Feb 20, 2018 20:13
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It didn't even have any hot gay spider sex. Don't lie to the guy, this ain't Wicked City.
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Feb 20, 2018 22:51
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Found this show, first experience with devilman and loved it. Should have had 12 episodes so we could enjoy hot gay spider sex. Rewatching it with a cousin that I convinced to check out. Everything feels like a stab in the heart watching these dumb teens before poo poo hits the fan.
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Feb 21, 2018 02:43
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I'd give it ten hot gay giant spider sexes out of five fangorious vaginas
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Feb 21, 2018 02:44
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I just wanted Kaim to get laid before he died tho  He was the best Pokemon in this series
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Feb 21, 2018 05:05
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Willsun posted:I just wanted Kaim to get laid before he died tho he kinda did? if you consider merging a kinky sex move, which i obviously do
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Feb 21, 2018 16:02
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So I shouldn't have, but I'm bored and sick. I went and read the rest of Devilman Lady. It's so fuckin' weird, it's entirely frontloaded with gross poo poo, like you wont get through a single chapter without someone getting molested somehow, and then the entire back half of the series is just full of really imaginative, weird stuff moving the plot forwards and then it...just ends??! There's a heap of stuff that get's touched on and then never brought up again, like cyborg devilmen or Sirene and Devilman Noir possibly being spliced together, or why there was a future tech city in prehistoric times, or why the guy from Demon Lord Dante shows up, has a huge, volumes long arc were he goes to hell, merges with the Demon Lord and then does NOTHING after he escapes. There's a short episode about people taking drugs to become Devilbeasts (which gives us mutated biker devils duking it out) and they IMMEDIATELY catch and kill the person behind it. Another arc about a snake guy ends with him getting away, but he dies anyway? And another has a guy turn into a devilman who is last seen eating scraps of food in a bin after escaping from Jun and never comes up ever again. And...poo poo, look just don't read Devilman Lady. Of the 20+ times someone has sex in this manga, it's consensual like...twice. It has some weird ideas about gender, some terrible ideas on how to tackle\present child abuse (  ) Jun never settles on being either a massive idiot with a heart of gold or a tough, competent devil hunter who lives only to fight.Also for someone who seems to like human breasts so much, Go Nagai sure doesn't know how to draw them, holy moly. Blegh, I'm kind of ranting, but now I'm on the other end of Devilman Lady I'm seeing all the ways it could be a much tighter and incredibly interesting story, with a bit (a lot?) of editing.
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Feb 21, 2018 17:27
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DisDisDis posted:Happy trails for the freakin win stop dis Somebody fucked around with this message at 23:56 on Feb 21, 2018 |
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Feb 21, 2018 18:50
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i'm probably never going to read Devilman Lady but I would frame this on my wall
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Feb 21, 2018 18:53
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It needs like 20x more panels like that but I'm in the read Devilman Lady and form your own opinion camp
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Feb 21, 2018 19:23
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Before I go away if you like problematic gays and ultraviolence read Yuureitou
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Feb 21, 2018 19:25
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DisDisDis posted:if you like problematic gays and ultraviolence read Yuureitou
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Feb 21, 2018 19:50
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In a fit of madness, I read Devilman Lady really quickly and my final verdict is that it was kind of like a fever dream, it needed to trim down the talky dialogue, and it was mostly me going, "Well, that happened." I really liked the line work, but it felt like the story was stretching itself really thinly and depended on the hosed up stuff to keep itself going and character motivations felt really muddled and it basically lost me when the characters went on for pages about mythology and theology.
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Feb 21, 2018 20:26
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Sorry I only like wholesome gays and ultraviolence
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Feb 21, 2018 21:48
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