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Corla Plankun
May 8, 2007

improve the lives of everyone


bob dobbs is dead posted:

they didnt teach you how to write reusable subroutines?

lol okay i copy-pasted it most of the time but it was Environmental Engineering, nobody was looking at my code critically

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hobbesmaster
Jan 28, 2008



Mr SuperAwesome posted:

our sales guys apparently make multi-millions per year which is ~15x the average computer toucher, and we get Jack poo poo despite being the poor bastards that make the poo poo they sell

if it really upsets you there exist application engineering type jobs where you get bonuses based off their commissions like a pilot fish picking up a shark's scraps

(however you really don't want a salesperson's low base+commission salary if you have no control over the commission)

cheese eats mouse
Jul 6, 2007


qhat posted:

unless we are literally talking about hundreds of thousands of dollars.

It's about that yea...

there's a bit of a line i have if it goes lower/reaches a certain point on price, the refresh they gave us is not worth sticking around vs my initial pre-IPO grant.

i realize i am i good problems territory. i also broke down crying from stress for the second time in a year today so we will see where/when i really break.

i'm balancing this vs looking to taking time off and trying my life working in a bakery and painting/drawing for fun when i'm not creatively burned out.

barkbell
Apr 14, 2006

woof

just say you have 20% equity op

Plorkyeran
Mar 21, 2007

To Escape The Shackles Of The Old Forums, We Must Reject The Tribal Negativity He Endorsed


cheese eats mouse posted:

found out yesterday our yearly reviews have no impact on our figgies so why even bother now lolol

asked what does and my manager has no clue. thanks HR

we do quarterly reviews and one of them each year is explicitly "write some stuff that helps your manager justify a raise". the other three are apparently pointless busywork done to placate hr. based on this quarter's hr is under the impression that we have okrs so i proudly wrote that i nailed all of mine, which is vacuously true.

Xarn
Jun 26, 2015


How does HR not know how your goals and metrics are set?

bob dobbs is dead
Oct 8, 2017

I love peeps

Nap Ghost

you shouldnt expect hr to be able to read

CPColin
Sep 9, 2003

Big ol' smile.

HR stands for How Read?

cinci zoo sniper
Mar 14, 2013



just interviewed with a startup in top 150 alexa ranking. surprise pair programming session in python and sql in a google doc

DuckConference
May 27, 2004



Achmed Jones posted:

when i was negotiating with goog they took away like 15k of signing bonus to give me an extra 10 or 15k salary and 40k/yr stock

it was fuckin bizarre, it felt like they did that just so they could feel they were horse-trading instead of bettering an objectively terrible initial offer

e: just to be clear, not a designer. not offering advice or anything just tellin stories

yeah i had similar experience, where they were like "RSU plus signing bonus will be this much, you can choose how much at 1:1" at which point I was like "I will take maximum money now and less 4 years from now thank you".

of course in the end there aren't actually rules, it's just an exercise in getting you to say/accept a number

KidDynamite
Feb 11, 2005



Just got wrecked by hackerrank giving me an error for swift String.insert(_:at:) that made no sense and just threw me off my game in a way that I couldn't finish the question.

Plorkyeran
Mar 21, 2007

To Escape The Shackles Of The Old Forums, We Must Reject The Tribal Negativity He Endorsed


getting completely nonsensical errors from swift is so incredibly normal that learning how to persuade the compiler to tell you something useful is one of the most important skills for writing swift

zombienietzsche
Dec 9, 2003


I've been at my current position for 5 years so I guess it's time to start looking around on principle. Plus the figgies seem real good right now, and we're pretty understaffed and despite our very shiny stack are having a hard time hiring. My jobs really cushy so it might be hard to leave but I want to start looking to see who's hiring.

I don't really want to list anything I did with like, WebForms and Silverlight because I don't want to work with those again. Is 5 years ago (in an 18 year career) too recent to start getting vague? I can sell what I was doing as performance tuning, mentoring, and technical oversight without embellishing even though my title was ".NET Developer".

If anyone asks me about it I have some fun perf tuning war stories where I can show I actually know a bit about the framework and don't just code farm out C#. And then I can talk about switching companies to get preview builds of .NET core running on Linux containers in k8s in 2016 so I'm not too worried about being labelled Mr Enterprise Suit if my resume doesn't scare people off.

Achmed Jones
Oct 16, 2004





your work history tells what you did not how you did it: increased performance x%, decreased cost y%, increased velocity, changed the org, shipped the product that made $xMM, whatever. do not mention technologies

your technologies go in the skills section. if you used web forms to make a hundred mil, say "made a hundred mil" in the work history and "web forms" in the skills. if you don't want to work with web forms, don't put that in your skills section

zombienietzsche
Dec 9, 2003


Thank you. I've heard similar a lot but it hasn't quite clicked for me until now.

qhat
Jul 6, 2015




Achmed Jones posted:

your work history tells what you did not how you did it: increased performance x%, decreased cost y%, increased velocity, changed the org, shipped the product that made $xMM, whatever. do not mention technologies

can’t agree with this. if the jobs you’re going after want certain techs and your current (most recent) job has you using those techs, you should namedrop them in your recent experience unless it’s basically implied. otherwise you’re just listing a bunch of techs at the start and the hiring manager has no idea when you last used them. don’t give the hiring manager a chance to second guess you. even if it’s just a “project implemented in python with mssql as the backend”, small innocuous details sometimes sell the experience far more than just stating you did a thing.

qhat fucked around with this message at 08:07 on Dec 3, 2021

cinci zoo sniper
Mar 14, 2013



Achmed Jones posted:

your work history tells what you did not how you did it: increased performance x%, decreased cost y%, increased velocity, changed the org, shipped the product that made $xMM, whatever. do not mention technologies

your technologies go in the skills section. if you used web forms to make a hundred mil, say "made a hundred mil" in the work history and "web forms" in the skills. if you don't want to work with web forms, don't put that in your skills section

yeah this is mine, skills section the size of all the “liaised with cross-functional stakeholders” blurbs i have, since data science is more like clown science (web dev) if we talk about stack consistency

Mr SuperAwesome
Apr 6, 2011

im from the bad post police, and i'm afraid i have bad news


Achmed Jones posted:

your work history tells what you did not how you did it: increased performance x%, decreased cost y%, increased velocity, changed the org, shipped the product that made $xMM, whatever. do not mention technologies

your technologies go in the skills section. if you used web forms to make a hundred mil, say "made a hundred mil" in the work history and "web forms" in the skills. if you don't want to work with web forms, don't put that in your skills section

all personal preference of course, but my preferred approach is to blend the two. "Saved company XX% ($Ym / annually) by designing and implementing new FooService, built in Python and Terraform" or some poo poo like that. It feels more legit to me that way and then gives interviewers an opportunity to dive in deeper on the intersection of your achievements and technology in said project. which ultimately helps you.

separate skill dump at the end is fine too, but highlighting a few of those skills for selected projects is nice and at least shows you're not just a bullshit saleseman. imo

carry on then
Jul 10, 2010


imagine actually being able to put numbers to the features you implement. that would be crazy.

Captain Foo
May 11, 2004

we vibin'
we slidin'
we breathin'
we dyin'


Mr SuperAwesome posted:

all personal preference of course, but my preferred approach is to blend the two. "Saved company XX% ($Ym / annually) by designing and implementing new FooService, built in Python and Terraform" or some poo poo like that. It feels more legit to me that way and then gives interviewers an opportunity to dive in deeper on the intersection of your achievements and technology in said project. which ultimately helps you.

separate skill dump at the end is fine too, but highlighting a few of those skills for selected projects is nice and at least shows you're not just a bullshit saleseman. imo

this is what i do

Mr SuperAwesome
Apr 6, 2011

im from the bad post police, and i'm afraid i have bad news


carry on then posted:

imagine actually being able to put numbers to the features you implement. that would be crazy.

depends on the company, but chances are your boss or their boss will manage at least some of the budget and thus know at least some of the numbers associated with whatever you're building, whether its product sales, reducing the AWS bill, total revenue for all the customers you manage, cost of $thing + margin on $thing and number of customers paying for $thing, etc etc etc

i just act interested (i am interested, its good for my CV) when they mention anything number related, ask them to dive deeper or share more etc, "huh verycool, aren't we doing a great job as a team, that's nice", and obviously your boss will agree and explain more about it because its good for their success and probably also their bonus :toot:

then write it down and stick it on your CV, ideally changing any money stuff to the nearest order of magnitude ($10s of millions as opposed to 56.3 millions) obviously

Achmed Jones
Oct 16, 2004





i mean it's obviously fine to put technologies in the skills section if you want to / if it'll help you. my main point is that when it won't, dont

Mantle
May 15, 2004


What do I do if the impact I make is hard to quantify? Like doing a big refactor to simplify an interface and make it impossible to use wrong where it used to require the caller to go along manually satisfying all of the prerequisite state?

Plorkyeran
Mar 21, 2007

To Escape The Shackles Of The Old Forums, We Must Reject The Tribal Negativity He Endorsed


no one who hasn't personally worked on the thing you refactored cares about your refactorings, no matter how amazing it is. that's the sort of thing that makes sense to mention in an interview with a potential team member, but most hiring managers will see that on a resume and conclude that you don't do anything useful.

TheFluff
Dec 13, 2006

FRIENDS, LISTEN TO ME
I AM A SEAGULL
OF WEALTH AND TASTE


Mantle posted:

What do I do if the impact I make is hard to quantify? Like doing a big refactor to simplify an interface and make it impossible to use wrong where it used to require the caller to go along manually satisfying all of the prerequisite state?

try to connect it to some number like "team velocity" or "percent of CI runs failing" or heck even something like "engineer job satisfaction metrics" or whatever. a lot of these numbers will be extremely subjective metrics that probably don't really mean anything, but just having a number adds a lot of legitimacy to a claim.

tk
Dec 10, 2003



Nap Ghost

Mantle posted:

What do I do if the impact I make is hard to quantify? Like doing a big refactor to simplify an interface and make it impossible to use wrong where it used to require the caller to go along manually satisfying all of the prerequisite state?

You took something that was useful but hard to use and made it useful and easy to use. This is the first half of being Steve Jobs, now you just need to learn to sell it and you’ll basically be Steve Jobs.

Ideally you’re refactoring would have resulted in fewer bugs / roadblocks in development, more usage of the technology, fewer questions to the interface experts. If you can say those things, do. If not, things like “I was asked to do a thing, it got delivered on time, it got adopted” are better than just “worked with technology”.

aeflux
Apr 17, 2002



not sure what exactly landed but I applied for six jobs in mid-Nov and five of them have progressed. one was kind of a wash where the cio reached out, apologized because they already had hired for the role but would keep my info in case it didn't shake out. was a smaller team (50 ppl) but was nice to see my info go up the chain

mentioned this before i added my azure/aws certs and more keywords to the job description part of my resume and...suddenly it's hot poo poo? that experience is anecdotal so take it with a grain of salt, i'm looking at senior sysadmin-ish, technical consultant type positions

carry on then
Jul 10, 2010


Mr SuperAwesome posted:

depends on the company, but chances are your boss or their boss will manage at least some of the budget and thus know at least some of the numbers associated with whatever you're building, whether its product sales, reducing the AWS bill, total revenue for all the customers you manage, cost of $thing + margin on $thing and number of customers paying for $thing, etc etc etc

i just act interested (i am interested, its good for my CV) when they mention anything number related, ask them to dive deeper or share more etc, "huh verycool, aren't we doing a great job as a team, that's nice", and obviously your boss will agree and explain more about it because its good for their success and probably also their bonus :toot:

then write it down and stick it on your CV, ideally changing any money stuff to the nearest order of magnitude ($10s of millions as opposed to 56.3 millions) obviously

i mean that's the problem, they don't know either. all we hear from sales/finance is overall revenue from our umbrella group every quarter. it's not really ever broken down, and even our chief architects don't know for sure who's using what. this is extra compounded by us working on a free developer tool aimed at developers who build apps that run on our appserver, so it's extremely nebulous.

Mr SuperAwesome
Apr 6, 2011

im from the bad post police, and i'm afraid i have bad news


TheFluff posted:

try to connect it to some number like "team velocity" or "percent of CI runs failing" or heck even something like "engineer job satisfaction metrics" or whatever. a lot of these numbers will be extremely subjective metrics that probably don't really mean anything, but just having a number adds a lot of legitimacy to a claim.

agreed, it's simultaneously bullshit but also not. developer productivity is super important.

if your'e stuck in a situation where you can only deploy once a week and it always fucks up every time, being the guy that initiates a proper CI/CD setup (implementing the joel test on software in tyool 2021 lol) then this is not only extremely valuable (your $1-2m/year per team is now doing something useful instead of loving around editing config files in vim, deploying, testing, retrying, repeat, ask me how i know) but you can also quantify it: X guys across Y teams deploying Z times due to my changes vs P before.

any hiring manager worth their salt will recognize this too without too much effort on your part, if they don't, 🚩

Mr SuperAwesome
Apr 6, 2011

im from the bad post police, and i'm afraid i have bad news


carry on then posted:

i mean that's the problem, they don't know either. all we hear from sales/finance is overall revenue from our umbrella group every quarter. it's not really ever broken down, and even our chief architects don't know for sure who's using what. this is extra compounded by us working on a free developer tool aimed at developers who build apps that run on our appserver, so it's extremely nebulous.

hmm then you are a bit hosed my friend. i guess dollar numbers are tier one, if you don't have dollar numbers then you gotta go for whatever other numbers you've got. unless you work for a complete yolo joker company they probably make money somehow and the managers get bonuses based on some metrics (however stupid) so if you can figure out what those metrics are, that might at least help

if all fails you can always make it up, as long as the numbers are vaguely believeable nobody will give a flying gently caress, it's more the difference between the hiring manager going "oh yeah cool man" vs "yeah whatever who cares" when they skim your CV, that's all you're aiming for

carry on then
Jul 10, 2010


Mr SuperAwesome posted:

hmm then you are a bit hosed my friend. i guess dollar numbers are tier one, if you don't have dollar numbers then you gotta go for whatever other numbers you've got. unless you work for a complete yolo joker company they probably make money somehow and the managers get bonuses based on some metrics (however stupid) so if you can figure out what those metrics are, that might at least help

if all fails you can always make it up, as long as the numbers are vaguely believeable nobody will give a flying gently caress, it's more the difference between the hiring manager going "oh yeah cool man" vs "yeah whatever who cares" when they skim your CV, that's all you're aiming for

lmao gently caress. between this and the fact that i'd have to stay here for another 10 years if i want a chance at having "senior" in my title means i may genuinely be unhireable

bob dobbs is dead
Oct 8, 2017

I love peeps

Nap Ghost

you can get a job as warm body who is reasonably sure to be able to code in this market. i recommend you go ahead and do so. didya post resume

carry on then
Jul 10, 2010


bob dobbs is dead posted:

you can get a job as warm body who is reasonably sure to be able to code in this market. i recommend you go ahead and do so. didya post resume

i have one i like and have actively grown in for the last 7 years (promoted once and submitted my package for the second); i'm not actively looking for another right now but i'm keeping an eye on things and getting frustrated at all the "do not pass go" poo poo that's required nowadays (correct job title, dollar values on all accomplishments, etc)

Achmed Jones
Oct 16, 2004





it's not required, it's how you make a good resume. this is not new in the past seven years. if you work at a faang you could probably just send in a skid mark that says "previous employer: faang" and get by but you asked for advice

am i really understanding correctly that you have no idea how many people use the tool you build, and no way to get that information?

Destroyenator
Dec 27, 2004
"Don't ask me lady, I live in beer"

I'm involved in cv screening (outside the us) and I don't really see many "saved $X million" sort of metrics in the applications we get, maybe some "public facing product serving X million monthly users" stuff but not that much.

I do care about technologies you know and I like a separate section that I can read as:

I can lead/teach/mentor C#, MSSQL, and Rabbitmq
I am able to work in React/Typescript, Java, and Swift
I am exploring Elm but haven't used it in production

Then in the history section something like:

Computer Toucher at Place (Mar 2019 - Apr 2021)
...description of responsibilities and place in the team... interaction with specific stakeholders... any metrics you can find ...
Tech: Java, ElasticSearch, Jenkins, GitHub

That way you can have discussions about what you've worked on and show the breadth of tech you've touched. Nobody will confuse you with an ElasticSearch expert if you've left it off the "I'm amazing at" section, but if it matters to them they'll ask and it shows you have broader experience without claiming to be a pro at everything. If you're a while at a place then it's reasonable to split it to subsections for (> 6 month) projects or teams you were with and list the work and tech separately.

Calling out the supporting tooling you've interacted with is good too. For example, I don't care if you've specifically done pulimi/terraform/cloudformation but if I see any of them I know you have some exposure to IaC that's a tick, bonus points if it's "led the introduction of X".

Corla Plankun
May 8, 2007

improve the lives of everyone


carry on then posted:

i mean that's the problem, they don't know either. all we hear from sales/finance is overall revenue from our umbrella group every quarter. it's not really ever broken down, and even our chief architects don't know for sure who's using what. this is extra compounded by us working on a free developer tool aimed at developers who build apps that run on our appserver, so it's extremely nebulous.

if they don't know then nobody can refute the numbers you put on your resume so who cares

carry on then
Jul 10, 2010


Achmed Jones posted:

it's not required, it's how you make a good resume. this is not new in the past seven years. if you work at a faang you could probably just send in a skid mark that says "previous employer: faang" and get by but you asked for advice

am i really understanding correctly that you have no idea how many people use the tool you build, and no way to get that information?

nope. we don't collect any data on usage. closest we could get is count of downloads, but our tool is also used by another tool. we don't even have numbers of who uses which of our two appservers (one you've heard of and one you probably haven't) because most of our licenses are sold with entitlements to both and we don't collect usage data except through self-reported surveys. all the tools surrounding them are free to download and require support entitlement to the main products for support

DELETE CASCADE
Oct 25, 2017

i haven't washed my penis since i jerked it to a phtotograph of george w. bush in 2003


carry on then posted:

lmao gently caress. between this and the fact that i'd have to stay here for another 10 years if i want a chance at having "senior" in my title means i may genuinely be unhireable

based on your post history i'd say you contribute no value to anyone

carry on then
Jul 10, 2010


DELETE CASCADE posted:

based on your post history i'd say you contribute no value to anyone

thanks, you too

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Xarn
Jun 26, 2015


Re saved XXX$ chat: Given the usual advice I see about claiming the numbers (make a rough rounding, if you worked in a team that did it claim the whole number, etc) I expect that if you started summing up resume claims, you would find out that people saved/made more money than exists in the economy :v:

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