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raminasi
Jan 25, 2005

a last drink with no ice

Its a Rolex posted:

i once had a fantastic interview for a junior. unwanted to hire him, and we couldn't, because my manager decided after interviewing several folks that we didn't actually need to fill that position at all.

it is genuinely possible everyone liked you and you didn't make the cut for stupid business reasons, not because of you at all

i also had this happen once where multiple people told me they were super excited to lean into the tech i was being hired for my expertise in, and then they just cut me loose after 2 months of interviews

what's the business about "feedback" then, that part seems contradictory

i guess this just rolls up into my position that all interview feedback is a waste of everyone's time, this is just a particular manifestation of that

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Its a Rolex
Jan 23, 2023

Hey, posting is posting. You emptyquote, I turn my monitor on; what's the difference?
i asked for that feedback in my case.

the feedback i got was some bullshit about needing more experience developing in an Agile work environment. it didn't help me get my next job, but it did confirm to me that either:

- hiring manager really did want me and business told him to gently caress off
- they wouldn't be honest about my shortcomings to help me out

in either case it solidified i didnt want to work there. gently caress em, you dont want to work there anyway after they end it like that

ultrafilter
Aug 23, 2007

It's okay if you have any questions.
:fart:

I once got a four paragraph "here's the reasons why you suck" email after a startup's interview process so be careful what you wish for.

raminasi
Jan 25, 2005

a last drink with no ice
i have a guess about what happened anyway:
  • i did well on three interviews
  • i faceplant on the system design interview (and i'm not perfect but that interviewer sucked rear end)
  • their stock drops like 10% the next day lol
  • "oh poo poo oh gently caress oh poo poo only hire 10x engineers"
  • condolences
i don't have any interest in asking, i never do and i definitely don't in this case

Achmed Jones
Oct 16, 2004



ill listen to feedback if they want to provide it, but i gotta agree - there's not much point asking for it. most places don't even bother having an actual rubric that you can fail, it's just everybody's gut feelings and biases all mixed together and dressed up like an objective process. for the places that _do_ have meaningful rubrics, they're usually mature enough to drill never give feedback into interviewers' heads.

and even then, a ton of the time it's gonna be "you passed the interview but [someone passed it harder | business happened | someone passed it not as well, but is cheaper | the hiring manager saw a bird and got scared | the position was filled by an internal transfer]".

if you failed for technical reasons, you ought to know what happened. if you failed for personality reasons, you're probably oblivious enough that you don't know, but your name is probably How and the people in this thread will tell you. if you don't have a clue and are pretty sure it's not a personality thing, it's probably one of those weird things (business reasons, someone else is cheaper, internal hire, etc.) or plain old discrimination that you'll never be able to prove or anything

Achmed Jones
Oct 16, 2004



my favorite interview failure was for bitium. i did ok (but not great tbh) on the technical part, and failed the "culture fit" part. they told me that quite plainly. i am 100% convinced that what made me fail was saying "i have a new baby at home, and he and my wife will always come before this job. outside of exceptional circumstances, i'll give you 40 hours a week and that's it"

which, you know. both sides of that interview process got the right outcome.

PIZZA.BAT
Nov 12, 2016

:cheers:

raminasi posted:

got rejected with this email

is it just me or did she throw a bunch of boilerplate platitudes in there without making sure they cohered? "we don't want you, which isn't a reflection of your skills, just that we don't want them. i can give you feedback on your skills (which were fine) (but we don't want them) next week"

the fact they even responded puts them above average, unfortunately

GenJoe
Sep 14, 2010


Rehabilitated?


That's just a bullshit word.

GenJoe posted:

the consulting company got back to me. we are now looking at around $220000-230000 total comp. I could debase myself and go back to the FAANGs but I really do like this style of work and it should be pretty chill. in terms of raw maximization of figures it's not a good deal but idk

so I did end up taking this job and I think it was a massive mistake lol.

it's for one of the large consulting companies (yeah, red flag), but I did get good vibes from interviewing and to an extent those vibes were true: the people are kind and inclusive and the type of work we take on fits thematically with what I was doing prior. the issue is that the way we staff projects is a huge loving shitshow and honestly borderline malfeasant.

rn I'm leading a team of ~8 other devs and they're all just incredibly green. two have never worked with html or javascript (to their credit they were honest about this, they just somehow slipped through the interview process lol), almost all of them have never used version control, or handled PRs, etc, but we're asking them to navigate our client's engineering org filled with devs that are, to be honest, very beyond their skill level. they're trying their best, but idk, the "work as imagined" idea here is that I'm supposed to be their interface, give them clearly defined tasks that they execute, and then take their output back to the client. and maybe that is feasible for some kinds of projects? but the work we're doing isn't segregated off at all and requires deep collaboration with the existing teams. I can't handle every cross-team interaction for them, or step in every time they run into a problem (heck, even getting them to raise an issue whenever they hit something they're not sure about has been a process, but they're at least getting a lot better). they're learning and improving and the client is at least happy with us but I'm eating so much poo poo on this, and even if we do finally get there in a few more months, our contract is going to be up and I'll probably have to start the whole process over again somewhere else.

am I a bad manager? very possible. but when I bring all of this up and the response is "yeah it's going to suck", it's like, what are we even doing here?

ultrafilter
Aug 23, 2007

It's okay if you have any questions.
:fart:

Now you have a better idea of what you're looking for in your next job.

bob dobbs is dead
Oct 8, 2017

I love peeps
Nap Ghost
and we have another entry in the "gently caress consultancies" pile lol

GenJoe
Sep 14, 2010


Rehabilitated?


That's just a bullshit word.
i really thought this one would be different lol

bob dobbs is dead
Oct 8, 2017

I love peeps
Nap Ghost
their ordinary sales motion for selling services is the bait and switch, of course their procurement motion for buying services is gonna be a bait and switch

Private Speech
Mar 30, 2011

I HAVE EVEN MORE WORTHLESS BEANIE BABIES IN MY COLLECTION THAN I HAVE WORTHLESS POSTS IN THE BEANIE BABY THREAD YET I STILL HAVE THE TEMERITY TO CRITICIZE OTHERS' COLLECTIONS

IF YOU SEE ME TALKING ABOUT BEANIE BABIES, PLEASE TELL ME TO

EAT. SHIT.


the consultancy I work for is a bit better about things and only hires devs with >5 years of experience, but it also charges an arm and a leg (and is in embedded so experience is essential)

to the point where most client employees are less skilled on the whole

but it costs significantly more than just hiring people directly

Private Speech fucked around with this message at 20:22 on Jan 29, 2023

qirex
Feb 15, 2001

if it makes you feel any better they do this with every role, I had to do a few projects ďassistedĒ by a conference room of 24 year old business analysts wearing the suit they got for graduation, which meant I basically had to be the design lead and the product manager

the money is supposed to help you not feel bad about ripping off the client, that said any client not aware of what consulting is in this day and age kinda has it coming

PIZZA.BAT
Nov 12, 2016

:cheers:

GenJoe posted:

i really thought this one would be different lol

this sounds very par the course for the decade of consulting experience i had. my first gig at one i was only there for two weeks and was barely through the onboarding before they shipped me to one of their most difficult clients to run point. consulting is a world where you either swim or drown. that applies to your team just as much as it applies to you. is it fair to be thrown into a difficult customer working with tech you have no experience with? no. but consulting isnít fair. it also isnít fair that they gave you a team of newbies- but thatís just how this works

good luck!

GenJoe
Sep 14, 2010


Rehabilitated?


That's just a bullshit word.

PIZZA.BAT posted:

barely through the onboarding before they shipped me to one of their most difficult clients to run point
this is fine and more of what I was expecting

PIZZA.BAT posted:

that applies to your team just as much as it applies to you

but I am never going to throw someone on our team under the bus as long as they're putting in effort, and all of them are. they're also based in latam where employment is a lot more precarious than it is for computer touchers here, so have fun wrestling with that dillema

PIZZA.BAT posted:

but thatís just how this works

there's a way to make this not suck while also improving outcomes but lol

GenJoe
Sep 14, 2010


Rehabilitated?


That's just a bullshit word.
but anyway, this style of development clearly isn't for me. the real despair is that my resume is getting absolutely brutalized rn, I can't even get a phone screen :smith:

ultrafilter
Aug 23, 2007

It's okay if you have any questions.
:fart:

You and everyone else. Give it a few months and things will be saner.

dioxazine
Oct 14, 2004

it's real bad out there. i've a single digit success rate in actually scoring interviews since october

should've jumped in q2 last year, drat

havelock
Jan 20, 2004

IGNORE ME
Soiled Meat

dioxazine posted:

it's real bad out there. i've a single digit success rate in actually scoring interviews since october

should've jumped in q2 last year, drat

Finally got an initial interview....and the role sucks. Welp.

Its a Rolex
Jan 23, 2023

Hey, posting is posting. You emptyquote, I turn my monitor on; what's the difference?
is there a good way to tell raytheon missiles & defense recruiters to go gently caress themselves?

i will tolerate recruiter spam from nearly any other defense contractor or national lab, but if you're trying to hire a "weapon flight path engineer" i think in no uncertain terms you you deserve to be told to go pound sand

Corla Plankun
May 8, 2007

improve the lives of everyone
on linkedin the best thing you can do is not reply (idk the specifics but if you decline a message vs just ignoring it it costs them more somehow)

anywhere else you just have to have a copypasta ready. mine is like a single sentence about not wanting to work in murder or pollution industries.

nudgenudgetilt
Mar 18, 2003
ok, which one of you had the hilariously bad interview with me today? asking to reschedule 8 minutes in because you're having an off morning is an interesting move.

Private Speech
Mar 30, 2011

I HAVE EVEN MORE WORTHLESS BEANIE BABIES IN MY COLLECTION THAN I HAVE WORTHLESS POSTS IN THE BEANIE BABY THREAD YET I STILL HAVE THE TEMERITY TO CRITICIZE OTHERS' COLLECTIONS

IF YOU SEE ME TALKING ABOUT BEANIE BABIES, PLEASE TELL ME TO

EAT. SHIT.


nudgenudgetilt posted:

ok, which one of you had the hilariously bad interview with me today? asking to reschedule 8 minutes in because you're having an off morning is an interesting move.

Is it a junior person? I keep hearing that young people today are more open and honest, so could well be that

I think most goons itt would just get through it and then apply to somewhere else

yes I have no sense of humour why do you ask

nudgenudgetilt
Mar 18, 2003
i suppose fairly junior -- few years of experience, so it wasn't like it was going to be their first gig or anything.

these aren't intense interviews either, basically first pass screening of seeing if they can competently chat about a few skills listed on their resume, and soft poo poo like "tell me about a time you worked on a project where midway through the project assumptions that were made early on no longer held true and you had to change course", or "tell me about a time you released a product or feature to production and a major bug slipped through the release process"

theflyingexecutive
Apr 22, 2007

Is there a good job title I should be looking for in junior but not entry-level PM work? I have a huge array of PM soft skills, but no certs or formal training. I used to work in film where I would responsible for anywhere from 20-200 extras and coordinating six different departments to get them set ready and currently I manage covid testing events where I have 1-20 reports collecting boogers while I go-between clients, vendors, venues, and talent teams keeping everything smooth.

cheque_some
Dec 6, 2006
The Wizard of Menlo Park

nudgenudgetilt posted:

i suppose fairly junior -- few years of experience, so it wasn't like it was going to be their first gig or anything.

these aren't intense interviews either, basically first pass screening of seeing if they can competently chat about a few skills listed on their resume, and soft poo poo like "tell me about a time you worked on a project where midway through the project assumptions that were made early on no longer held true and you had to change course", or "tell me about a time you released a product or feature to production and a major bug slipped through the release process"

My least favorite type of interview question -- "Tell me about a time you were in <some very specific scenario>"

hobbesmaster
Jan 28, 2008

theflyingexecutive posted:

Is there a good job title I should be looking for in junior but not entry-level PM work? I have a huge array of PM soft skills, but no certs or formal training. I used to work in film where I would responsible for anywhere from 20-200 extras and coordinating six different departments to get them set ready and currently I manage covid testing events where I have 1-20 reports collecting boogers while I go-between clients, vendors, venues, and talent teams keeping everything smooth.

product or project?

Captain Foo
May 11, 2004

we vibin'
we slidin'
we breathin'
we dyin'

cheque_some posted:

My least favorite type of interview question -- "Tell me about a time you were in <some very specific scenario>"

i am not a software developer but these seem like not exactly uncommon scenarios

Jabor
Jul 16, 2010

#1 Loser at SpaceChem
"tell me about a time you learned something new partway through a project and had to change course" is literally one of the questions i ask new grads, lol

havelock
Jan 20, 2004

IGNORE ME
Soiled Meat

theflyingexecutive posted:

Is there a good job title I should be looking for in junior but not entry-level PM work? I have a huge array of PM soft skills, but no certs or formal training. I used to work in film where I would responsible for anywhere from 20-200 extras and coordinating six different departments to get them set ready and currently I manage covid testing events where I have 1-20 reports collecting boogers while I go-between clients, vendors, venues, and talent teams keeping everything smooth.

For software stuff? ie are you trying to parlay your other experience into software PM stuff? Project Coordinator or Project Manager are pretty broad, with the former being more junior (maybe even entry level).

If you can herd cats like that and have read exactly one book about user stories / agile you should be more than qualified.

Qtotonibudinibudet
Nov 7, 2011



Omich poluyobok, skazhi ty narkoman? ya prosto tozhe gde to tam zhivu, mogli by vmeste uyobyvat' narkotiki
feeling out interviews because im underpaid and ugh back again in the "there will be a live coding leetcode" salt mines

on the other hand, this time around it looks like you can just sub any leetcode prompt into chatGPT and it will just spit out the correct answer lol, so i can just cheat the stupid "CODE STUPID MATHS PROBLEMS FAST" hoop and get on to the actual reason im an attractive hire, shittons of system design and UX knowledge in a niche area

one co im probably just gonna do as a practice run because they are apparently hard set on three days in office a week, in SV, when i am in oakland with no car and would have a 2h commute each way unless they can figure out alternate arrangements or guaranteed carpool. they offer amazing figgies but gently caress that

bob dobbs is dead
Oct 8, 2017

I love peeps
Nap Ghost
it means within the next quarter theyll eliminate that kind of async leetcode for synchronous leetcode or something different. material chance theyll just eliminate remote alldays, too

taking the principle of "its a market for lemons on both sides, we cant have nice things" i tend to think it will turn into whiteboarding in person for the goddamn screen. maybe handing over phones or some poo poo

bob dobbs is dead fucked around with this message at 06:14 on Feb 5, 2023

nudgenudgetilt
Mar 18, 2003
who the hell still does an allday? seems like everyone batches interviews into 2 hour sessions max (usually 30 or 60m), with a few spread out across a couple weeks

coordinating a full hiring panel is a bunch of bullshit that can stay in the past

nudgenudgetilt
Mar 18, 2003
coderpad and similar are the standard these days. you give the candidate a task, they write code in a shared webapp, you ask them questions about their reasoning along the way

bob dobbs is dead
Oct 8, 2017

I love peeps
Nap Ghost

nudgenudgetilt posted:

coderpad and similar are the standard these days. you give the candidate a task, they write code in a shared webapp, you ask them questions about their reasoning along the way

this was already straightforward to cheat on and is now blitheringly trivial to cheat on, thats the rub

nudgenudgetilt
Mar 18, 2003
the code isn't the primary thing you're evaluating. it's their ability to explain their code and reasoning.

if they're able to use chatgpt efficiently enough to have a fluid conversation about their code, then more power to them

bob dobbs is dead
Oct 8, 2017

I love peeps
Nap Ghost

nudgenudgetilt posted:

the code isn't the primary thing you're evaluating. it's their ability to explain their code and reasoning.

if they're able to use chatgpt efficiently enough to have a fluid conversation about their code, then more power to them

you can get the llm to do the conversation to explain the reasoning, lol

so the coderpad screen can't do anything anymore

nudgenudgetilt
Mar 18, 2003
like i said, if they can use the llm efficiently enough to get through an interview and not seem like they're proxying the questions to someone/something else, more power to them. i have no problem with somebody taking advantage of every tool available to them while working.

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bob dobbs is dead
Oct 8, 2017

I love peeps
Nap Ghost
these peeps had the marketing peep go through coderpad-like screens with basically no knowledge

https://www.woventeams.com/tech-vetting-in-a-chatgpt-world/

at that point you throw away the screen. they suggest code review as an alternative

bob dobbs is dead fucked around with this message at 06:34 on Feb 5, 2023

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