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Not a Children
Oct 9, 2012

Don't need a holster if you never stop shooting.

meatpotato posted:

lol they came back today and said "actually, we can only do <way less than before>", which is about 10% more than my last job but the additional commute or moving expenses would completely negate and likely exceed the increase in salary :/

i think i flunked a phone interview today too, god dammit

Jesus that's some serious cajones for them to come back with a ~25% swing downward

Keep at it. It's a numbers game, 100%.

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Not a Children
Oct 9, 2012

Don't need a holster if you never stop shooting.

The trick I always used before a big interview was taking a day off before to write out questions and having half a bottle of wine to help me sleep

Another thing I've learned -- Always be casually interviewing, even if you don't need a job. Interviews are a lot easier once your answers become rote and the interview itself isn't a Culminating Experience of some sort

This goes double if you work in an At Will state. Might as well use that poo poo-for-brains policy to your advantage

Not a Children
Oct 9, 2012

Don't need a holster if you never stop shooting.

raminasi posted:

i thought my onsite went good but not great, and the resulting recruiter mentions application status and next steps but notably not wed like to move forward and its killing me not knowing what that means. i assume :rip:

It means they're interviewing other people and seeing how that goes before picking their faves. You're still in the running in all likelihood


Ciaphas posted:

asking my interviewer for PTO deets like the OP suggests seems like an extremely forward question to ask, but I'm coming up dry for :decorum: phrasings of the question that don't miss the point

(ed) i like the 'most challenging aspect' one though, if only because it lets me lead in with mine being the lack of internet at last job


Don't ask directly about benefits or pay during an interview, they will tell you about them whenever they've decided they want you. You want to keep them in the dark about your expectations as long as possible so they're invested once you've wowed them enough to spend money on you. If you simply must know, raminasi's advice holds true. Ask about anecdotal experiences, it gets you information without making it look like you're pumping them for raw information (and sometimes they'll take the hint and cough up the policy info)

Not a Children
Oct 9, 2012

Don't need a holster if you never stop shooting.

From where I see it you're stressing out about a thing that is wholly outside your control now. No amount of fretting or analyzing is gonna make a difference, so chill out and focus your attention on other things. That said:

Handholding on algs is expected. Most people don't perform well when put on the spot, but your ability to work collaboratively and synthesize information quick is A Big Deal

If you did complain about your current job a lot (and the temptation is always strong, don't get me wrong), that usually is not great. An interview is about what you bring to the table for the potential employer, not about the circumstances that led you to needing to interview (or worse, your inability to deal with those circumstances). Even the dead-eye question of "so why are you looking" should be met with nonchalance and absolute positivity; you can always handwave it as "just wanted to see what was out there." Take it as a learning experience and do better next time, regardless of outcome.

Not a Children
Oct 9, 2012

Don't need a holster if you never stop shooting.

lmao this morning I had a recruiter ask me if I'd stop interviewing with other companies if I received an offer from the one he's representing

Yeah sure dude let me just chop off some of my BATNA just for you it'd be my pleasure


raminasi posted:

that place i thought had rejected me actually wants to move forward and i just misinterpreted the recruiter's email

he volunteered ballpark comp and even the absolute lowest number is his range was a 33% bump from my current, now i gotta fight the urge to just say "YES GREAT I LOVE IT WHATEVER SOLD"

Congrats dude. Rex is right, there's zero disadvantage to playing it slow

Ciaphas posted:

i regret that i volunteered salary requirements first yesterday, and the only number i thought of was my no-go minimum (old *1.05) :doh:

sheer nerves left me unable to produce a good 'i'm not giving my salary expectations until it's offer time' statement so i fumbled hard, bleh

(ed) also much more than that would be over 100k and even if it really isn't that seems like such a ridiculously thick border for me to hit even with my years

poo poo happens, nerves get in the way esp when you're not super used to interviewing. Learn and do better next time. At the very least, your fumbled salary requirement should be old*1.3 unless you're dying to make a change

Don't ever question your worthiness when it comes to salary. We live in a capitalist world -- You Are Worth As Much As You Can Negotiate. Employers know that on several levels and will use it like a bludgeon to keep you second guessing your self-advocacy. Never forget.

Not a Children fucked around with this message at 17:07 on Mar 7, 2019

Not a Children
Oct 9, 2012

Don't need a holster if you never stop shooting.

Ciaphas posted:

My logic at the time was that as I'm unemployed I'd rather increase my chances of landing a job I am actually sort of interested in, and 100k felt like such a hard--greedy? not true obv but it's what i was thinking--stop

Add that to my default state being a very low sense of overall self worth and good old Impostor Syndrome from sadbrains and welp

We'll see if I even get an offer of course

Being unemployed does change the dynamic a fair bit, esp psychologically, but even if they know you are out of work you should play it like you're free to take your time and be discerning with offers. When they ask what you want, tell them you're more concerned at the moment whether the position is a good fit and that you need to know more about the day-to-day, benefits, etc before you're ready to put a number forth. If they're insistent, you have two choices -- be willing to walk away (this is most effective if you've made it past at least one interview) or throw out a number on the upper end of a researched range (or higher if you're feeling bold).

Again, don't sweat it. Just learn from the experience. It took me several interviews to become comfortable with stonewalling on salary.

Not a Children
Oct 9, 2012

Don't need a holster if you never stop shooting.

That sounds like a great way to kill time w/cold calling recruiters

Too bad I don't live in a protected state. Still might be fun to put that stipulation forward and just sandbag 'em when they ask

Not a Children
Oct 9, 2012

Don't need a holster if you never stop shooting.

qhat posted:

Cold calling recruiters don't have any lucrative jobs anyway. And its sometimes okay to tell the third party recruiter because your motivation to get paid as much as possible aligns with their motivation to get the highest possible commission.

I agree with this to an extent, but esp if youre getting underpaid and want to reach market parity (or beyond), I think it pays to keep your numbers close to your chest until theres an offer in front of you. You have to assume every bit of information you get is being passed on to the person potentially paying them (hint its not you) because their #1 goal is to get you placed; actual compensation is secondary. You force their interests to align with yours if you get them to invest time in that placement and get to Ill take this offer if they meet x y and z instead of giving them a chance to talk you down several steps beforehand. If youre already making good money then yeah theyve really got nothing to offer you so you may as well save your time and moonshot em

Not a Children
Oct 9, 2012

Don't need a holster if you never stop shooting.

raminasi posted:

that also sounds like you might have met with one of those rear end in a top hat interviewers who thinks whiteboard algorithm juggling is the final word in competency and either they or someone who disagrees with them is looking for ammunition to make a case one way or the other

in which case a failure means nothing other than that their process sucks

Naw they wouldn't waste time on a 3rd interview if they were just looking to poke holes

Now if it was a 1st interview, a solid amount of those are just self-back-patting extravaganzas

Not a Children
Oct 9, 2012

Don't need a holster if you never stop shooting.

It happens dude. Can't control the other people in the process

Keep interviewing. It's like with houses or apartment hunting -- it can be disappointing to miss out on one you really, really thought you'd like, but there are plenty out there and you'll find another that stokes the same excitement if you keep looking.

Not a Children
Oct 9, 2012

Don't need a holster if you never stop shooting.

CLASS 2 PERVERSION posted:

see, I worry about this, because according to my calculations I am way the heck overpaid right now for someone with my experience and people are going to look at me funny when I say I want double of what they expect to pay me

You are worth what you can negotiate and not a penny less

In fact, once you have the outlandish salary it's easier

Not a Children
Oct 9, 2012

Don't need a holster if you never stop shooting.

raminasi posted:

lol the recruiter just got back to me with "i'll try to get the increase you asked for, but to be totally transparent, i've never heard of an adjustment that significant."

i asked for 4% over their offer.

i'm not mad, he's not lying any more than i was

Hahahaha a $7k adjustment is beyond the pale for them? They're puttin' you on

On the other hand I've had a company abruptly stop negotiations and rescind a verbal offer when I asked for $5k over their offer (or, barring that, a weekend to consider) so what do I know

Not a Children
Oct 9, 2012

Don't need a holster if you never stop shooting.

ratbert90 posted:

You know that was a trash company and gently caress them.

Oh yes. Besides that, they were originally interviewing me for a senior position with a higher salary on offer but they pulled the bait and switch on me when I told them I would want some time to learn their processes and standards before I'd be comfortable stamping their drawings, saying that I didn't have enough experience for the senior role but I could totally get there soon!!!!

I had sketch vibes the whole way through, so they probably did me a favor by yanking the offer


raminasi posted:

the only thing I can think of is that the counter was so little of an increase that they knew it was a token and I didn’t actually care

but if they yank it because of that then hoo boy that’d eclipse every green flag I’ve seen from them so far

Pulling an offer for something like that is a grade-A-moron shoot-themselves-in-the-dick power play. If they do, gently caress 'em.

Not a Children
Oct 9, 2012

Don't need a holster if you never stop shooting.

Last time I saw a form that asked "what was your salary in your last position" I answered "Decent, but not as good as the salary in my current position"

gently caress anyone who tries to bilk information out of you

e: No, I did not get a call back

Not a Children
Oct 9, 2012

Don't need a holster if you never stop shooting.

cheque_some posted:

when I was interviewing at my current job they insisted on doing all of this over the phone

So they'd call me at work and I'd be like, Sorry can't talk, let me call you back in an hour
in an hour I'd call and they wouldn't be there, so I'd leave a message saying, Maybe you can just e-mail me?
Then in another hour they'd call back and be like, sorry this wasn't something we can discuss over e-mail! And it would be like, "Hey we wanted to offer you $X and so many days of vacation"

And when I was like, let me think that over, do you mind e-mailing me a copy of that so I have it in writing and can look it over she was all, "I don't know why you need it in an e-mail when I just told you everything!"

it was very odd

In my experience companies and even recruiters are very loathe to send you anything in writing until they think you're a lock these days

I wonder if it's because they're worried you'll bounce your offers off someone else? But you can do that anyway so I don't really see the point.

Not a Children
Oct 9, 2012

Don't need a holster if you never stop shooting.

I guess it's to get you more sunk-cost in terms of time when you're dealing with that

Joke's on them once people catch on though, once you lose any sense of shame about lying to recruiters they're just wasting their own time

Not a Children
Oct 9, 2012

Don't need a holster if you never stop shooting.

Scionix posted:

Where/how do yall practice for interview poo poo? Im gonna start job hunting in ~1 yr and I am very out of practice because my last 3 years of work has been a lot of janitoring other peoples code and not thinking about new problems.

Interview a bunch. Like take any interview you can get. Set your linkedin to Looking and go nuts on recruiters trying to get at you.

Not a Children
Oct 9, 2012

Don't need a holster if you never stop shooting.

Not a Children
Oct 9, 2012

Don't need a holster if you never stop shooting.

lol just lol that anyone would offer their skills as at a level of less than 100% competence on a resume, the very first thing the person making a hiring decision sees


Flat Daddy posted:

I didn’t practice my salary range avoidance lines and ended up hemming and hawing so bad over the phone in a initial recruiter call when asked (“they won’t take applicants without a number”). at least it ended with me just not giving an answer rather than me farting out a low number and feeling like a dick hole afterward, like I’ve done before

now I can ask for too much money over email instead I guess.

Practice is 90% of the game when it comes to this. They do it all day. You do it when you are forced to. Equalize the playing field and just practice practice practice. Doesn't matter if you use rote responses with recruiters, you're trying to win, not to impress. Shrug it off and find another position to try again

Not a Children
Oct 9, 2012

Don't need a holster if you never stop shooting.

Always possible that that line is a gambit to get you to react with "well anything in the blahblah area would be fine." It's a way for them to gauge your interest in the position and whether they can play it against you.

It's dumb but possible.

Not a Children
Oct 9, 2012

Don't need a holster if you never stop shooting.

Mao Zedong Thot posted:

knowing what you want/can get and asking for it > not saying anything > not knowing what you want/can get and saying something

I'd personally disagree. I'd always try to get them to state a number first because, hey, their budget and expectations could be beyond yours. Ask for more than what you want if you're gonna ask because until you know the budget you're at an informational disadvantage. I'd say if you're gonna ask for a number shoot for the highest number you can say with a straight face and uncracked voice. If they really want you they'll still make their offer. If they were otherwise hiring you on the basis that you were cheaper than the next guy, what do you think your coworkers/work environment will be like?

And seriously, if you don't know, you don't know. Don't feel like you've got to say a number just because they put you on the spot.

Not a Children
Oct 9, 2012

Don't need a holster if you never stop shooting.

Scott Baio Nudes posted:

still have ~year of college and no discernable skill or talent. how do i land a job? i dont have any friends in computers

You have a year to write a resume and start applying for jobs. So uh... get on it. Start the applying 4 or more months before you graduate. Better yet, start going to field-relevant meetups, groups, and social events and you'll form the connections you need organically. That will get you waaaay better prospects than playing resume roulette.

Not a Children
Oct 9, 2012

Don't need a holster if you never stop shooting.

Acer Pilot posted:

that place I was talking about yesterday offered me almost 30k more than Im making right now. almost as much as the salaries posted for the faang Im hoping to get into. thanks for all the advice. not saying a number definitely works.

Hell yes dude. Play it cool, wait for the other offer to roll in, freak out for a bit over your decisions, and then enjoy your new job and figgies

Not a Children
Oct 9, 2012

Don't need a holster if you never stop shooting.

Acer Pilot posted:

Ok. At this point I'm just gonna ask for more money and treat this like the only offer. Doesn't hurt to name my price after their initial offer at this stage, right?

Thanks for all the advice again.

yup, negotiate with them per normal. at will employment works both ways, dont hesitate to write your dear john letter if the faang offer blows them out of the water.

Not a Children
Oct 9, 2012

Don't need a holster if you never stop shooting.

pointsofdata posted:

wtf they make you pay for coffee

guillotine

Not a Children
Oct 9, 2012

Don't need a holster if you never stop shooting.

Hughlander posted:

Had what could only be described as an 'adversarial' interview yesterday. Rather than a conversation interviewer needling in a raising tone looking for specific 'right' answers. Really sucks because A) He's the VP. B) Every other session went great. But even if offered I don't think i'd want to work under someone like that.

The only correct response to an adversarial interview is to call them on their bullshit and/or walk out

If this is how they treat a stranger they're ostensibly trying to impress, how do you think they'll treat you once you're in the fold?

Not a Children
Oct 9, 2012

Don't need a holster if you never stop shooting.

Hughlander posted:

What's some good ways to approach a negotiation on salary?

I got one of the two offers I was looking for and it's got good base, but only 'ok' bonus (15%) and no options/RSUs. My last place that I was laid off from was a bit lower base but 40% bonus and some RSUs each year. In the 5 years I never got less than 100% bonus payout so we're talking a TC difference of like 25% I don't think I ever had to negotiate that much. The plus side is they want me really badly, and they're only my fallback if the other offer doesn't come through next week.

They put their number forth first. That's good! Now tell them what you want. They'll say yes, no, or something different. It's really that easy. If they reject you for trying to negotitate, you didn't want to work for them anyway; if that's how they treat someone they want to entice, just wait til you see how they treat someone they already have in the fold.

It does help to have another offer on the table that you'd be willing to take. Even if it's not better, it's easier to stick to your guns psychologically.

Not a Children
Oct 9, 2012

Don't need a holster if you never stop shooting.

Captain Foo posted:

correctly built in a bunch of extra travel time to the schedule which I of course didn't end up needing so now I'm sitting at a nearby cafe anxiously watching the clock and posting

Better than the alternative. my very first job interview I showed up 3 hours early

Just relax and enjoy your coffee. Splurge on a sandwich, even

Not a Children
Oct 9, 2012

Don't need a holster if you never stop shooting.

My favorite is being contacted by a recruiter, filling out whatever BS questionnaire, stonewalling them on salary, getting them to cough up their range (which tops out at a figure $25k under my current mark), saying "nah son," then getting asked "would you like to make a counteroffer for their consideration"

Dude you came to ME and haven't told me dick about the position, so of course I'm not

Not a Children
Oct 9, 2012

Don't need a holster if you never stop shooting.

hobbesmaster posted:

did you at least say you weren't going to take a massive pay cut for that position so they could confirm that yes their offered salary is trash?

I told them that their quoted max was below market, and I would not be interested in that salary. Polite, but firm.


Scott Baio Nudes posted:

i live in ca but they responded with just a base. this would be a career change so honestly the base is ~okay~ but if my current employer counter offers than id be throwing away too much. is there a good way to answer without closing the figgies ceiling

Drop it til after the interview. Wow them, then engage

Not a Children
Oct 9, 2012

Don't need a holster if you never stop shooting.

KidDynamite posted:

im hoping and feeling like i might get the figgie call today. im having trouble thinking of words I can string together that amount to no you give figgie first. please provide safe wisdom. I have the following in mind.

i feel like without the full benefits package in front of me i cant make an accurate estimate on what a base salary number would be. could you send me the benefits package and what you were thinking over an email so I can take my time to review?

not sure what i would follow up with if pressed though.

If you're far into the process and you know an offer is imminent, you can more or less force their hand if you want to. "I'd like to evaluate the offer as a whole, including salary, benefits, and leave time. Please send me all available information and we can discuss after I've had a chance to review all aspects of compensation." or "I don't have a number in mind, but will consider any reasonable offer. I'm sure we can come to a mutually satisfying agreement." If you're feeling bold you can always say "Just let me know what your budget is and I'll let you know if we can come to an agreement."

Or if you just want to go scorched earth you can always go "I dunno, what does the supervisor for this position make?" and ask for that

Not a Children
Oct 9, 2012

Don't need a holster if you never stop shooting.

The Clowner posted:

what do you say to recruiters who are really insistent on getting a number? do I tell him a bullshit number to start and go up when I get the offer, or do I just outright say get hosed?


TwoQuestions posted:

Lol I've had recruiters refuse to email me, they only will communicate verbally, and wouldn't give any info about the job until they heard how much I would do it for. Definitely not sketchy at all.

They do this because a) they know people feel more pressured to capitulate on the phone and b) they want to filter/push you through as quickly as possible

The more placements they make, the more commission they make. They may or may not be affected by the salary they manage to negotiate for you, but always know that they're more focused on making multiple connections than one big one. They are trying to work numbers, and to turn that against them you need to be enough of a shoo-in placement that you can make them put up with actual negotiating skills

Not a Children
Oct 9, 2012

Don't need a holster if you never stop shooting.

Frustration is temporary but figgies are forever (until they aren't)

Anyway good luck

Not a Children
Oct 9, 2012

Don't need a holster if you never stop shooting.

pathetic little tramp posted:

Is relocation just impossible these days? My company moved me to Florida and I just loving hate it here, but even with 12 years experience as a full stack I get to the phone interview and the conversation is just about how ridiculous it is to expect me to move. I'm not even getting to the tech interview these days because they don't want to move me. I've got to start lowering my price or explicitly saying I'm not expecting them to cover the move. I just can't take living in this fuckhole of a state anymore.

This seems really weird to me, in my experience HR practically clacks its heels when you say you're open to relocation. Maybe let the issue sit until you're at the offer stage?

Not a Children
Oct 9, 2012

Don't need a holster if you never stop shooting.

pathetic little tramp posted:

That's been my experience before too. When I worked in Kentucky and San Diego, I got relocation offers. It's only ever since I've gotten to Florida. I literally replaced the part of my resume that shows my current location with Current Location | Available to Relocate.

But I feel like maybe it's because I'm applying to jobs in New England - the talent pool that's closer has to be pretty robust.

I would just take location off of your resume altogether, and let the whole relocation thing be an incidental footnote when you apply. You want to get as far into the process as possible without digging into the details on that one. If you adequately entice them, your relocation should be an afterthought. If you're truly desperate to get out, you may end up having to eat that cost, unfortunately.

Not a Children
Oct 9, 2012

Don't need a holster if you never stop shooting.

HR doesn't make company decisions outside of "how do we best legally protect the company and get workers what they need (besides money) to make the company more money"

Your boss referring to HR is blatant cowardice, if not contempt for you and your request

Not a Children
Oct 9, 2012

Don't need a holster if you never stop shooting.

4 months is a long time

but it's shorter than you think. Get the job first.

Not a Children
Oct 9, 2012

Don't need a holster if you never stop shooting.

TimWinter posted:

I interviewed someone today who asked me, rapid fire, questions about our testing stack and then retracted his offer mid interview. His reason was "your stack isn't wrong, but it's more trouble than it's worth to maintain".

I've never been so owned interviewing someone in my life.

Beautiful

Not a Children
Oct 9, 2012

Don't need a holster if you never stop shooting.

pathetic little tramp posted:

A company got in touch with me yesterday and I saw that it was contract, but I let them call me anyway and after their spiel I got to pull a "Oh this is contract? Oh I'm sorry, I don't do contract work." on em. There's no insurance, 900 miles away with no relocation cost, the contract is 2(!) months and 32/hr for full stack? Hell loving no what is wrong with you. This was for a senior developer. I was flabbergasted.

holy poo poo, takes balls just to make that phone call

I'm not sure what the hell they were thinking. maybe that they'll strike gold if they just call enough people?

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Not a Children
Oct 9, 2012

Don't need a holster if you never stop shooting.

This is one of those situations where the base salary kinda matters. Re: base comp going up 70%, Are we talking like 80k -> 135k or 200k -> 340k?

One offers a substantially different quality of life, the other is obviously very good but is of relatively less marginal utility. Doesn't sound like you're super hung up on making ALL THE MONEY so getting to 6.5 figgies might matter less to you than being challenged at your job

It kinda sounds like you're fed up with your current job, which plays into that as well. Do you realistically think they'd bring you to parity if you got to have the comp reevaluation? Do you think you'd get a counter if you tried to leave (and more to the point, would you realistically even consider taking it)? Do you see a way out of the logistical aspects of the job that are wearing thin?

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