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asur
Dec 28, 2012

Bloody posted:

felt very much like a generic tech interview the entire time. on-site was some whiteboard programming and some behavioral nonsense.

whats killing me is that i think i don't want to take it? like the other two companies (1 i have an offer from, the other i expect today) are more attractive - more interesting-sounding work, way better work/life balance, and better commute, but i have no idea how i could turn down such a ridiculously large pile of cash

Leverage it to get an offer at another company that doesn't have a terrible culture and work life balance. Or move and fix the commuting issue at least.

Just to make sure, you are taking into account Amazon's good awful vesting structure or they're offsetting it with a sign on bonus, right?

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asur
Dec 28, 2012

Flat Daddy posted:

last night I said gently caress it and just applied to all the big ones and got my first response. I’m hoping the process takes 1 billion years because while I’m really killing it with the strings and linked lists portion of CTCI, if there’s anything harder than those questions I think I’m hosed.

w/ the recruiter that forced a number I emailed a nice even number 40% higher than my already inflated comp and immediately got back a “...call me” email lol. my batna is keeping an easy relatively high paying (IMO) but unfulfilling job so w/e

If you aren't interviewing for a specific position, you can probably delay the phone screen and onsite by a month each if you want time.

asur
Dec 28, 2012

Acer Pilot posted:

Whats the recommendation on asking for more money after the initial offer? Should I ask for all the other changes like vacation, retirement funds, etc right away or save that for after?

You can split the discussion on benefits and pay, and I would do so given that a huge list might overwhelm the person. If it's in person or phone, bring up both as part of the same call but not at the same time. It's also very unlikely that you can change 401k matching if that's what you mean by retirement.

asur
Dec 28, 2012

Acer Pilot posted:

Thanks, that's what I meant. The Canadian equivalent at least. No mention of it at all in the offer letter.

I'll probably stick to emailing about salary first and then benefits, etc after their reply.

Also, is asking for 30% more too much? I just want to overshoot what I'd be willing to go for. They seem to really want me at that place as they offered more than I expected.

My FAANG onsite is also on the same day this company wants a response. Should I make my salary request email on that day or just ask for more time to consider? They have me a week.

Are you trying to get 30% more to boost the FAANG offer? I'd probably wait till you got through the FAANG round before trying to negotiate as having an offer that is higher is stronger than just asking. Be sure to tell the FAANG recruiter now that you have an offer on the table and need them to hurry up. I'd ask for an additional week from the other company. Say you need time to discuss such a huge decision with your family if you want to give a reason. If they haven't given you the benefits information ask for that and then say you need time cause they didn't give it to you.

asur
Dec 28, 2012
I would highly recommend you document everything. You may have no intention to use it now, but you don't know what will happen in the future and if something comes up documenting everything then may be hard or impossible. For example you have access to slack conversations with both your manager and coworkers now that you could lose access to.

asur
Dec 28, 2012
At least ask for a signing bonus to cover the bonus you're losing by leaving mid-year.

asur
Dec 28, 2012

KidDynamite posted:

there's no initial value provided for rsu grants and the vesting schedule is 25% every year and they're granted in april. so 1 year 8 months before i see any of that.

i think i def should try to negotiate for higher base or at least a hefty sign on. just going to word it nicely as possible something like "with the responsibilities of the role and the value i am bringing blah blah blah i would feel more comfortable with 150k base"

is that reasonable?

You're effectively working for 8 months without the RSU portion of your compensation which is atrocious. If you don't need this job I'd ask for a signing bonus that is worth the bonus amount that is prorated plus the value of 8 months of RSUs.

asur
Dec 28, 2012

pathetic little tramp posted:

I was very lucky in the job I just accepted. They asked me for a number, I decided "we're at the end of this process, let's put my number out there" and they came back the next week with an extra 15k on top because the CEO decided to stop asking for a number and make salaries data-driven to eliminate unconscious biases when hiring women.

I'm just sitting there thinking "poo poo I was expecting them to negotiate me down"

This is the reason you don't give a number. Chances are very high that the range is higher than 15k more and you could have asked for more.

asur
Dec 28, 2012
PIP might as well be six months notice.

asur
Dec 28, 2012
My understanding is that in the US your employer can change your compensation at any time. If this is true, then I'd probably try and take the approach of getting a higher total salary to compensate as I'd guess that they're going to lower the bonus amount anyway.

asur
Dec 28, 2012

Chopstick Dystopia posted:

I'm not in London but it seems like salaries there are terrible. Maybe try working for a remote friendly US place.

Either this or get a job at a US company with a location in London.

asur
Dec 28, 2012

Janitor Prime posted:

Hey guys, I'm curious what kind of bargaining I can do with Google and if anyone has any experience with the FAANGs. I'm a Sr Developer with 10 years of experience and I just finished an interview with them yesterday that I felt went really well. The recruiter mentioned they were looking to hire me for a Sr/Team Lead kind of role for YouTube in San Francisco.

Based off of glassdoor I'm thinking I can get somewhere in the 180~200k range for base pay, but not sure what the stock or annual bonus / signing bonus looks like. Also I'm not sure what they would give me for a relocation bonus. Do you guys have any recommendations on what I can realistically shoot for?

Google doesn't typically negotiate unless you have a competing offer or competitive current total compensation.

They will pay for relocation though it's at a fixed rate, I believe cash for new grads and a weird point system for everyone else.

asur
Dec 28, 2012
I would highly recommend against taking an SRE role unless you want to become an SRE and do that type of work. In general switching back to a SWE will be difficult and require jumping through hoops and probably being de-leveled. From what I've heard Google treats their SREs better than most companies and values the role and I'm uncertain how easy it is to switch internally, but you are taking a risk if you want to leave and switch back.

A rotation as an SRE would be useful for all SWEs to understand what is required to support production systems and how to design systems that are easier to support, but there is a large difference between that and taking a permanent role.

asur
Dec 28, 2012

EIDE Van Hagar posted:

A bad interview can build on itself.

like, where everyone knows this is going badly at 9:45am and you still have to keep whiteboarding until 4pm. a bad start in the morning can really mess with your head.

i had one interview where they didn’t have me on the schedule at reception, so I tried to call my contact (a recruiter) but got a voicemail saying she was no longer an employee. tried to get reception to call the hiring manager, they left him a voicemail but couldn’t find him. turns out they were all in a room waiting for me and not at their desks, but reception didn’t know it.

after 25 minutes sitting in the lobby I told security I was leaving but they should call me if they wanted to reschedule.

i got a call from the manager 5 minutes down the road and after a little talk he wanted to go ahead with it anyway.

i had blocked off the whole day for it so I agreed and turned around. I ended up walking into a room pretty flustered myself and meeting three people who were not happy about sitting in a conference room for 45 minutes now, and it just went downhill from there.

This is terrible. You can't blame the candidate for sitting in the lobby for 30 minutes while the company is trying to get it's act together.

asur
Dec 28, 2012

raminasi posted:

one time i got a take-home that was clearly designed to test my ability to find some particular lock-juggling solution. (it may have been some standard algorithm, i don't know.) i couldn't reason out the solution they were looking for but i was able to come up with something that seemed right to me using atomics and concurrent standard library collections that passed their provided test suite. naturally, they didn't accept it.

for extra credit: is it better or worse to write a comment to the effect of "your instructions have a lot of rules about locking, making me suspect that you want a solution with locks in it, but i couldn't figure one out so i did this instead, which is what i would have done in real code anyway"

It's worse as you're going to be rejected if you're correct, but now if you're wrong they might reject you for writing a dumb comment.

If you think they are looking for a specific solution that you don't know how to implement I would recommend stopping and not wasting your time implementing a solution they will reject.

asur
Dec 28, 2012

Bored Online posted:

whats the likelihood that applying to another position at current medium sized company would work in my favor?

If you work at a company where your manager can veto your move then you should talk to them first.

asur
Dec 28, 2012
You can state that you'd immediately accept if they offer $X, state that it's what you require which implies your making near it now, or imply you have another offer. Any of these is a stronger position than stating a third party source told you that $X should be in the correct range.

asur
Dec 28, 2012
I'm pretty certain the bonus they're showing on level.fyi is the annual bonus which looks to be 10% or 15% of salary. You can probably ask for a large signing bonus or ask for more if they don't meet your ask.

asur
Dec 28, 2012

The Management posted:

so I’ve narrowed it down to two companies I’m talking with. one is a more interesting project but the company is a mess. second is less interesting but they have their poo poo together.

first co told me that they’re interested but they also have other candidates to talk to. I assume that means they aren’t that excited and hoping someone better comes along. second co just made an offer that is way higher than what I expected and it’s going to be hard to make them wait.

the smart answer is to take the second one now, but I really want to see what I could get from the first one

Did you tell the first company you have an offer? That tends to get things moving.

asur
Dec 28, 2012
Unless all the roles have numbers then Senior 2 was likely added to give a promotion between Senior and whatever is higher and is likely to be 2-3 years after Senior.

asur
Dec 28, 2012

raminasi posted:

an offer came in:

-20% total comp bump
-66% salary/33% cash bonus instead of having a quarter of total comp vest over four years
-4% 401k match instead of zero
-mega backdoor roth access
-far more exciting technical opportunity and room for technical growth

potential downsides:
-work/life balance is amazing at my current place and it will probably degrade a bit
-i’d be going from a company with a mission i actively support to a company with a mission i’m neutral about

i love my team and it will be sad to leave but it’s hard to argue with the math on this, right? a promotion at my current place is at least nine months out and would get me to total comp parity with the offer but none of the other bullets

If you mean that you would get 20% more, but at the old job 33% of your total comp is in stock, that vests at least yearly, then I think this is a lot closer than 20% indicates. The stock could appreciate and stock grants are rarely taken away while a bonus can be cut.

asur
Dec 28, 2012

Boiled Water posted:

anyone in this thread have experience living in and writing code for companies in the UAE? On the surface it looks awful, but awful with a ton of money.

The people I knew who did this basically said they were giving up any semblance of a normal life to make a lot of money. The experience was very isolating and you basically only associate with other expats. They also lived in countries that wouldn't tax the income and fields outside of software dev where the difference was more substantial.

asur
Dec 28, 2012

greps of wrath posted:

I’ve been working for a FAANG for a little over a year now and to be honest I’m bored as gently caress. The problems are all trivial and I don’t feel like I’ve advanced much from my last job (windows lob software). I want to work for a startup to add some risk and excitement but
1. This may be a bad idea and I should just take my boring FAANG salary and live with it.
2. Startups are terrible and filled with narcissists.
3. Where are all the startup jobs? My coworkers seem to find them but when I look around it’s all terrible LOB poo poo and I’ve had enough of that.

What should I do thread? I want to work on interesting problems but I also have a rent payment. :(

Find interesting problems in your company and switch to work on them. If you can't find interesting problems in a FAANG, potentially excluding Netflix due to breadth, then the problem isn't interesting work.

asur fucked around with this message at 00:46 on Nov 20, 2020

asur
Dec 28, 2012
Any place that has a take home project isn't going to let you bypass it because you asked unless you have an internal referral.

asur
Dec 28, 2012

PIZZA.BAT posted:

the same reason they get off on drilling candidates on obscure trivia

they're rear end in a top hat :spergin:s who shouldn't be anywhere near the hiring process

Rather than ascribing malintent I think it's generally more likely that the person who setup the homework did a version of it that quickly. If you're writing the problem you also have a pretty good idea how to solve it which cuts out all the design time and you probably have an environment already setup too. The person in question probably also did a trash job because they just needed it to work and if you could give them their own work they'd probably fail it.

asur
Dec 28, 2012
Google asks a ton of random questions that are absolutely ridiculous because someone came up with the bright idea to let engineers come up with their own questions with zero standardization. It's supposedly not uncommon for the hiring committee to just completely disregard an interview because the question that was asked is unreasonable.

It doesn't sound like this question should have been asked with a stipulation that the person use C, a language with next to no inbuilt libraries. I also wouldn't expect to every implement a hashing function or a hashmap in an interview.

asur
Dec 28, 2012
If you're going to value stock options at $0 then why are you even bothering to interview at places that offer them. The compensation isn't going to be competitive with any place that offers RSUs because the company isn't going to value the options at $0.

asur
Dec 28, 2012

raminasi posted:

this isn't a universal rule at all, what makes you say this

Investors aren't going to allow a company to give away equity that they paid for. The company has a real valuation for the options based on the financing round(s), projected growth, and projections for future rounds and it isn't $0. It's possible there's some company out there that is doing this, but it's not common. I want to make it clear that I'm talking about total compensation so salary + bonus + options/RSUs and I've yet to hear of someone at a startup getting a salary that is equivalent to the salary + bonus + RSUs you'd get at a public company that is actually paying market rate. This is ignoring that it's far more common for startups to also have a lower salary component to conserve cash to extend their runway though this is possible to avoid either by negotiating or wisely chosing your startup to apply to.

I should make it clear that I actually agree with those stating that you should value options at $0 or at minimum be very aware that there are a multitude of ways that a company can screw you.

asur fucked around with this message at 20:16 on Dec 18, 2020

asur
Dec 28, 2012
I'd try what was suggested above with your manager first, but if you're going to peace out anyway you don't have anything to lose to reach out to those that are working with you and see if you can jump to another team.

asur
Dec 28, 2012
My offer from Amazon was trash in general, but the signing bonus didn't even make up for the lack of RSUs in years 1 and 2 and was even more lackluster in comparison because most companies give a signing bonus in addition to a sane vesting schedule.

asur
Dec 28, 2012

cool av posted:

sometimes I'm scheduled to interview a candidate after the CTO, and if CTO doesn't like the cut of your jib he immediately cancels the followup "wrapup" meeting.

so I'm just stuck talking to people for 45 minutes who I know from the start have no hope. haven't told any of them off the bat yet, but considering it.

There is absolutely no reason to tell the person in this situation. The best thing you can do is conduct a normal interview and try to leave the person with a good impression.

Also gently caress that dude who said a person's resume is garbage. You're never changing his mind so you might as well walk out and tell the boss or recruiter why.

asur
Dec 28, 2012

KoRMaK posted:

so waste their time instead?

if the cto or whatever is able to unilaterally shut down a candidate, why bother going through with the other interviews?

If you're in this situation I do think wasting a small amount of time that both parties already cleared is the better option than springing the change on the interviewee. Hopefully the real interview practice isn't a complete waste of time.

Ideally the company wouldn't have an interview process where someone can shut it down unilaterally. If someone can do that then they should schedule the interview separately where the process can end after it.

asur
Dec 28, 2012
It's very common now for the offer to state a dollar value for RSUs that converts to units of stock shortly after you start. I don't know why they didn't always do this since recent grads got to free ride on 9 -12 months of appreciation.

This may be less common, but at my company refreshes are the same as well.

asur
Dec 28, 2012
The biggest variance is housing from around $1.5k for a room to $2.5k to 4k+ for an apartment. I think prices have dropped, but I would expect them to start rising if not now then by the time you have to sign for year 2.

I know several people who are living comfortably on $50k takehome which would be around 100k to max a 401k and 130ish to max after tax. These people are in $1.5k shared apartment housing situation so ymmv.

asur
Dec 28, 2012
If a company is pushing you to accept while you're waiting for other interviews then do so and bail if a later place has a better offer. Unless you're in a very niche area the bridges you potentially burn by doing this are inconsequential and you should do what's best for you.

asur
Dec 28, 2012
Do 0. It's pretty unlikely that they directly lie to you and at worst they'll probably be cagey or answer generically which gives you the information you need. Don't ask generically if the manager sucks. Ask specific questions on the points that matter to you. What's your day like? When do you come in or leave? When was your last vacation? Etc

asur
Dec 28, 2012

Joe Chip posted:

i know there are a couple googlers in here so maybe you can answer this. i interviewed 5 weeks ago and haven't heard anything. is this a good or bad sign? i'm already talking to ms but i want to know if i should even bother thinking about it at this point

Email your recruiter. In general I would say that's going be a no as the hiring committee should have a decision within two weeks though it's possible it's changed since I was there.

Previous page: That response sucks without a lot more context. At the end of the day you do need to get a reasonable amount of work done, but if you can't do that the answer shouldn't be implied overtime. It also should be a rare event for the employee that actually sucks. If it happens frequently that's a management problem.

asur
Dec 28, 2012

CarForumPoster posted:

I cant get over those loving figgies.

Physicians go through a decade of absolutely BRUTAL schooling. They save lives.

If I quit the company I started with my partner, I could be making more base than middle-of-the-country pediatricians.

How? poo poo is hosed.

Because a dev's value scales with the number of users and thus the FAANGs and others are not only highly profitable, but they're highly profitable per worker. There's not greater illustration of this than to compare Apple or Microsoft against GE in it's heyday. The same applies to doctors where like those old GE employees are working with their hands and thus can't scale.

Judges are generally extremely well off prior to being appointed. No one is choosing to be a judge for the money

asur
Dec 28, 2012

Kernel Sanders posted:

how are benefits taxed in the us? in Sweden at least, everything aside from a few sanctioned exceptions (gym cards basically) are treated as salary and incur income tax for the employee and payroll taxes for the employer making any benefits moot

This is basically the same in the US, but the loophole is that if it provides the employer a benefit then they don't have to consider it compensation. Meals are justified under working during them, working more, etc.

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asur
Dec 28, 2012
Everywhere should require paying all of a person's compensation for the duration of the noncompete. It would remove companies using it for the chilling effect, which is bad for the economy, and only use it when the competition substantially impacts the business.

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