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TimWinter
Mar 30, 2015

https://timsthebomb.com

Xarn posted:

This thread has gotten really active lately.

If you want to know the truth about a company, praise it to one of its employees in February.

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TimWinter
Mar 30, 2015

https://timsthebomb.com

meatpotato posted:

my advice to all is donít compromise your principles in work. donít work for idiots, donít make idiotic products. best case is youíll regret it. worst case is youíll become an idiot.

I clicked the 'NICE!' button on this post.

TimWinter
Mar 30, 2015

https://timsthebomb.com
Whenever interview questions come up, I use fizz buzz as a reference point that everyone should know.

No one knows it. It's been years of interviewing, years of talking with other interviewers about how to get better at it, years of trying to talk to interviewees about interview questions and how stumping people that don't know the modulus operator is stupid but a problem where you can talk through an approach is what I'm interested in-

and when asked "Have you heard of the interview question fizz buzz?" no one has ever answered "yes, of course".

TimWinter
Mar 30, 2015

https://timsthebomb.com

KoRMaK posted:

lol relax. stewin won't lead to screwin

Stealing this.

TimWinter
Mar 30, 2015

https://timsthebomb.com
Hey Penisface, what languages can you write in? If I know any of them PM me and we can do a mock interview if you'd like.

HR needs to CYA pretty hard, you want interviewees to walk away thinking A) if the company says yes tomorrow or in six months, it would be a good offer to take and B) any of my friends thinking of applying for a job at the company should do so, especially the good ones.

That means you can't burn bridges with blunt or curt feedback. Not with me though, mother fucker!

TimWinter
Mar 30, 2015

https://timsthebomb.com

qhat posted:

The solution is to interview somewhere at least every six months, even if you don't have any intention of accepting. Keeps your head in the game.

I should do this.

Also, I absolutely, 100% hypocritically, hold it against candidates who admit to doing this.

TimWinter
Mar 30, 2015

https://timsthebomb.com

cis autodrag posted:

Dude you're basically just harassing her now. If you don't want to engage with her posts just put her on ignore.

:holy-poo poo:

TimWinter
Mar 30, 2015

https://timsthebomb.com
It's the difference between knowledge and wisdom. I can know how to solve this problem as a junior dev, but being wise enough to see how my decisions will play out or what makes them good decisions or bad- that's all stuff you just need to fail repeatedly at for decades to figure out.

TimWinter
Mar 30, 2015

https://timsthebomb.com

Notorious b.s.d. posted:

they call it a job because they have to pay you to do it

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=77Y6CIyyBcI&t=5s

TimWinter
Mar 30, 2015

https://timsthebomb.com
A friend shared this video with me and "That's what the money is for" has become a regular response to "well, X is a good idea but obviously so-and-so won't want to do it" at my workplace since then.

What I'm trying to ask is should I watch the rest of Mad Men or is being aware of this exchange enough

TimWinter
Mar 30, 2015

https://timsthebomb.com
Never rely on the code of a generalist.

TimWinter
Mar 30, 2015

https://timsthebomb.com
Hey can someone recommend me any one of the many container solutions that exist as a viable alternative to docker? I don't want to derail the thread so I'm asking for literally one example here.

TimWinter
Mar 30, 2015

https://timsthebomb.com
People who are looking for something that the new job offers are more attractive than people who are trying to get away from something at their current job.

TimWinter
Mar 30, 2015

https://timsthebomb.com

Space Whale posted:

Please don't take this as petulance:

Why? Isn't the output of the program pretty useful? Or should every function be tested period?

Edit: Also given that this is a one-off. Unless they're testing for habits?

Were there not enough tests or no tests? If there were no tests then yeah add tests you nunce.

TimWinter
Mar 30, 2015

https://timsthebomb.com
The point where you weed out the people who are worthless at common programming problems like string manipulation and also find programming problems uninteresting has to come somewhere. Preferrably somewhere before you spend two weeks orienting them to your collaboration practices.

TimWinter
Mar 30, 2015

https://timsthebomb.com
nothing new about throwing unicode exceptions

TimWinter
Mar 30, 2015

https://timsthebomb.com

abigserve posted:

didn't include the interpreter at the top of the file (#!/bin/[whatever])

As someone who has tried to get an interviewee to take the one additional step to turn arbitrary python functions into an executable script, this is infuriatingly hard to communicate.

Unfortunately, it's also really telling when someone is familiar with the steps you have to take to turn arbitrary python into something you can run/use. It's definitely "like me" bias at play, but I assumed it was easy and it took a lot of experience to be able to do it and a lot more experience to do it well at all.

TimWinter
Mar 30, 2015

https://timsthebomb.com

PCjr sidecar posted:

dont need a shebang for 'python fizzbuzz.py'; do you also fail them if they dont chmod +x it?

You don't need to make a script executable if you pass its path as an argument to the python interpreter, so no, they should do one or the other to be correct.

Shaman Linavi posted:

i am glad that this thread is here to remind me that sometimes the people conducting the interview are just as bad as the people on the other side

Very often. The underlying question is the same on both sides: "do I want to work with this person". The initial writeup is all foreplay, what I really want to know is if you are interested in learning a better way to solve this particular fizz buzz, or if you can argue a better solution, or if code critique causes you to get indignant and ask to see my manager, etc. That's the surprisingly level playing field part of an interview.


ps: "#!/usr/bin/env python" is what you want if you want a shebang at all. It's portable in the sense it uses your virtualenv's interpreter.

TimWinter
Mar 30, 2015

https://timsthebomb.com
I recommend looking into behavioral interviewing, there's a bunch of lit on the subject now and it stems from a premise that previous behavior is the best predictor of future behavior. You see it in a lot of stereotypical questions these days, as they tend away from "what's your greatest weakness" to be more along the lines of "tell me about a time where X happened, how did you deal with that" where X is some no-win scenario like literally impossible deadlines or strong personalities on the team. It's telling what tools people use to deal with adversity, whether it's all nighters, or muddle with project scope, or simply watch the deadline come and go and let the PMs sort it out. Some workplaces you are more concerned about hiring people who are on their toes dealing with strong personalities than others.

TimWinter
Mar 30, 2015

https://timsthebomb.com

Peeny Cheez posted:

Is this a euphemism for "assholes"?

Yes. At least, it's what I mean when I say I have a strong personality.

TimWinter
Mar 30, 2015

https://timsthebomb.com

FamDav posted:

I would add to during "don't be a dick". Even if the candidate is bombing at minute 5 in a 60 minute interview, don't mentally check out.

best case, they recover and maybe you change your mind. Worst case they get rejected but feel like things went fairly and they were treated with respect.

This is worth saying twice. Interviews are hard already, and even if someone isn't a good fit for your team, they might be a good fit for someone else's or maybe in a handful of months they'll be perfect for a new role opening up. Don't preemptively burn a bridge just because a candidate isn't doing well on a particular fizz buzz, the world is too small for that.

TimWinter
Mar 30, 2015

https://timsthebomb.com

Fiedler posted:

"Tell me about a time when you had conflict with a team member" translates to "the team you'll be joining contains at least one, but more likely two loudmouth assholes that no one can stand."

"Tell me about a time when you had an impossible deadline" translates to "this organization is in perpetual disarray and you'll be joining a team that's so far underwater your commute will involve scuba gear."

"Tell me about an experience you had where an interviewer was clearly being passive aggressive. Like he thought your hair looked dumb."

TimWinter
Mar 30, 2015

https://timsthebomb.com
I've never discounted an interviewee if they say "well we only have X minutes so I'll just write stubs for these methods" *def method(): raise NotImplementedError*. If I get a candidate writing code for an OOP problem in usually looking for structure and data flow.

I'm also terrible at OOP and that might be showing in how I interview.

TimWinter
Mar 30, 2015

https://timsthebomb.com

Symbolic Butt posted:

if it's a completely new problem to you, you just gotta pray that the interviewer is able to able to appreciate you brainstorming some ideas that maybe converge to the right design. (in my experience OOP is not very good with this :ssh:)

Again pulling from limited experience here, but I've seen management be careful to not put the peope who can't appreciate this sort of thing in the interviewer pool.

The strongest technical guys on my team are the most self critical, and they themselves admit we'd never grow the team if they were allowed to pass/fail candidates based on how well the interviewee approached a new-to-them problem that the interviewer could ace in one pass while sleeping.

TimWinter
Mar 30, 2015

https://timsthebomb.com
Haha, I work for a startup, so the good is balanced with what I hope are just growing pains.

If you're serious, shoot me a resume at my email, tim@ the domain in my avatar. Then you can corroborate (or call out my lies on) everything I've said about interview/hiring practices.

TimWinter
Mar 30, 2015

https://timsthebomb.com

Space Whale posted:

OK so look stuff up

What is the canonical SUDOKU or ELEVATOR class/object model?

As someone who still believes in OOP but never "got" it, I'm also interested in this

TimWinter
Mar 30, 2015

https://timsthebomb.com
Part of the hesitancy when hiring devops without direct devops experience is warranted: the last devops meetup I went to had a senior devop lecturing people with zero work experience on how to spin up docker containers on aws as experience to get a cushy devops job.

TimWinter
Mar 30, 2015

https://timsthebomb.com
What's an svp?

TimWinter
Mar 30, 2015

https://timsthebomb.com

ShadowHawk posted:

You should be automating your continuous build system to scream at them for you.

There should be a version of those code obfuscation competitions but you write unit tested code and the hidden secret is that the tests fail non-deterministically.

JS is disallowed because they haven't invented deterministic tests that interact with the DOM yet.

TimWinter
Mar 30, 2015

https://timsthebomb.com
Sounds like Jimmy Carter is getting his first job since the 80's


Symbolic Butt posted:

im stealing this for my next interview thx

:same:

TimWinter
Mar 30, 2015

https://timsthebomb.com

Gazpacho posted:

never provide references to a third party recruiter, they're fishing for contacts

This makes sense of how my recruiter cold calls went through the roof recently.

TimWinter
Mar 30, 2015

https://timsthebomb.com
I've seen a lot of people having trouble not divulging too much information when trying to schedule interviews.

I know this is not true, but I keep imagining that they treat every human interaction like at A/T post. If you don't pour your personal business onto everyone you interact with, I'm sure it's easy to say "Things are up in the air at the moment, let's talk next Monday to schedule a flight". Or "I'd like to take the day off on Thursday".

TimWinter
Mar 30, 2015

https://timsthebomb.com

qhat posted:

It's a real kick in the teeth to get rejected because your interviewer is an objective idiot, but just remember that if they did give you an offer, you'd actually have to work with this imbecile every single day.

Earlier in the thread (and I couldn't find it, I did look though), someone said "Don't work for people you don't respect. Best case scenario is you regret it."

Don't work for people you don't respect, they'll make you do things you won't respect yourself for having done.

TimWinter
Mar 30, 2015

https://timsthebomb.com
To be fair, if I needed help re-architecting a post-trade processing system I would also consider JS experience a mark against.

TimWinter
Mar 30, 2015

https://timsthebomb.com
Have you tried using slack

TimWinter
Mar 30, 2015

https://timsthebomb.com
There's a oft-unspoken first step to making more money, and it's needing more money. If you're single in West Virginia and work remotely, you'll not be losing hair over the fact your labor is compensated for a song because you enjoy a high quality of life. Move to NYC and squirt out a couple of kids; suddenly you'll be a lot more creative in how craft your career advancement and more confident when you ask for higher-than-offered dollar amounts.

TimWinter
Mar 30, 2015

https://timsthebomb.com

ADINSX posted:

Those salaries seem pretty low across the board...


FamDav posted:

both of them are targeting median salary in SF for the position.

I thought the idea was that most salaries capped out at ~150-175, and psuedo-liquid benefits started making up the majority of your compensation after that point. Options w/o vesting requirements, stock, etc.

TimWinter
Mar 30, 2015

https://timsthebomb.com

hobbesmaster posted:

the latter should be correctly recognized as a a veiled threat to start looking for a new job followed by your boss calling your bluff

Bosses are evaluated on results and retention. They're supposed to call bluffs, but also know when someone isn't bluffing and take care of them.

The now defunct Debug podcast had a great episode where two former directors from Apple were on the show, Melton and Ganatra. They go over a lot of salient points about retaining talent and when to let people go, among a lot of other points about managing technical teams.

I think everyone should be aware of the other side of the negotiation- it's not that you should cry a river for the bosses of the world, it's that it certainly helps to understand what factors into a raise vs a pass.

TimWinter
Mar 30, 2015

https://timsthebomb.com
As long as the check ships, a retroactive start time is great.

Seriously I hope our HR doesn't pull these sorts of stunts. Specifically the "withholding benefits" crap- how could you even consider an offer?

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TimWinter
Mar 30, 2015

https://timsthebomb.com

qhat posted:

Just tell them that you received a significantly higher offer from another place, thank them for their time, and leave it at that. No need to sound indignant about it, they'll probably just end up thinking they made a correct decision.

Agreed, indignant is never a good look. It's also kind of a lovely feeling, I recommend avoiding it entirely.

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