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bird with big dick
Oct 21, 2015


I bought a Shun vegetable knife for my spouse for a house warming present and we both like it a lot. Cutting vegetables with a chefs knife generally doesn't really make sense for a lot of reasons.

My go to for people that at best have whatever came in their Chicago Cutlery knife block is a Wusthof Grand Prix though. I bet I've gifted close to a dozen of them.

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SubG
Aug 19, 2004

It's a hard world for little things.


veiled boner fuel posted:

I bought a Shun vegetable knife for my spouse for a house warming present and we both like it a lot. Cutting vegetables with a chefs knife generally doesn't really make sense for a lot of reasons.
I would love to hear a lot of reasons why a chef's knife doesn't make sense for cutting veg.

Casu Marzu
Oct 20, 2008



veiled boner fuel posted:

Cutting vegetables with a chefs knife generally doesn't really make sense for a lot of reasons.


bird with big dick
Oct 21, 2015


Okay maybe not "a lot" and now that I look at that quote it's a bit of an oversell, but what are you doing with the point on a chefs knife when you're slicing vegetables? Lack of the extra steel means you can get away with thinner blade. Flat blade is good for vegetables. No need to "rock" the blade at any point. Makes a difference for me.

I mean, there's a reason they exist and from personal experience I don't think it's solely "to sell more knives to people." I think a nakiri is superior for vegetable cutting than a chefs knife.

Casu Marzu
Oct 20, 2008



It call comes down to how you were taught to cut.

Standard western style cutting is the rocking motion which requires a curved blade. A lot of Asian ppl learn to do the push cut, which is a lot lot easier with a straight blade. Neither method is right or wrong.

I make use of both, depending on what veg I'm cutting and what the end shape/size should be.

Wroughtirony
May 14, 2007



If your knifework background is at all French, you do everything with a chef knife. The point is necessary to dice onions and if your culinary style is at all French you are dicing a lot of onions. I have been accused of throwing a knob of butter into a saute pan, dicing a whole mess of shallots, mincing a head of garlic and only then deciding what I want to cook. It's a disease. Personally, French technique saves my wrists. Any time I tried to do any significant prep with a flat blade I would end up with tendonitis. But if I had learned to work with a flat blade first I might say just the opposite. Who knows.

When it comes to blade style, the current thinking that Asian is best is a trend. I'm sure the pendulum will swing back eventually. Or maybe we'll all be using that ridiculous "Viking kitchen axe" that Facebook is dead set on selling me.

Casu Marzu
Oct 20, 2008



I've converted to just biting off hunks of veg and spitting it into the pan.

Submarine Sandpaper
May 27, 2007

ASK ME ABOUT HOW I GHOULISHLY CELEBRATE THE DEATH OF CHILDREN TO TEACH THEIR PARENTS "A LESSON"


There are Japanese knives with french profiles for the best of both worlds. Hard to get though.

SubG
Aug 19, 2004

It's a hard world for little things.


Submarine Sandpaper posted:

There are Japanese knives with french profiles for the best of both worlds. Hard to get though.
What are you calling a French profile that a gyuto doesn't qualify?

Submarine Sandpaper
May 27, 2007

ASK ME ABOUT HOW I GHOULISHLY CELEBRATE THE DEATH OF CHILDREN TO TEACH THEIR PARENTS "A LESSON"


SubG posted:

What are you calling a French profile that a gyuto doesn't qualify?
gyutos usally have a tip below half height. French is specifically the sabatier profile with a flat spot then long gentile curve and a pointed tip at about mid height. Germans I consider to have a tip at full height and almost all curved belly.

of course a gyuto can be any of the above.

Internet Explorer
Jun 1, 2005



Oven Wrangler

Sorry, I am super ignorant about knives but had a question along those lines. I enjoy cutting vegetables with a santoku-style knife. Where does that fall on the spectrum of what you guys are discussing? I have a chinese-style vegetable cleaver, but rarely use it. I'm wondering if I should give it a try.

Ranter
Jul 11, 2004



Santoku is push

I'm a self taught home cook santoku user. Rock chopping is unnatural and weird to me.

Ranter fucked around with this message at Feb 14, 2018 around 17:05

SubG
Aug 19, 2004

It's a hard world for little things.


Submarine Sandpaper posted:

gyutos usally have a tip below half height. French is specifically the sabatier profile with a flat spot then long gentile curve and a pointed tip at about mid height. Germans I consider to have a tip at full height and almost all curved belly.

of course a gyuto can be any of the above.
Yeah, just depends on the gyuto. But the geometry on my old Tojiro DP gyuto is almost identical to a Sab (in the sense you're talking about), only without the asinine bolster---the tip comes up to the level of the bottom of the tang. And Tojiro DPs are like the exact opposite of difficult to get knives.

But of course if you want a knife with a lot of belly you can do a lot better than that, or even a German-pattern chef knife:



ARE YOU READY TO ROCK?!?!?

Submarine Sandpaper
May 27, 2007

ASK ME ABOUT HOW I GHOULISHLY CELEBRATE THE DEATH OF CHILDREN TO TEACH THEIR PARENTS "A LESSON"


Which size of the DP? I need western knife for guests and was going to go with a k sab 8"

Is the use case for that actual rocking or is it a butcher knife?

Flash Gordon Ramsay
Sep 28, 2004



Grimey Drawer

SubG posted:

Yeah, just depends on the gyuto. But the geometry on my old Tojiro DP gyuto is almost identical to a Sab (in the sense you're talking about), only without the asinine bolster---the tip comes up to the level of the bottom of the tang. And Tojiro DPs are like the exact opposite of difficult to get knives.

But of course if you want a knife with a lot of belly you can do a lot better than that, or even a German-pattern chef knife:



ARE YOU READY TO ROCK?!?!?

God there are so many knives I want but have no need for. Like that cast iron one (or maybe made from a railroad tie?) that the woman had in that Korean cooking video (saw the video somewhere on these dead forums).

SubG
Aug 19, 2004

It's a hard world for little things.


Submarine Sandpaper posted:

Which size of the DP? I need western knife for guests and was going to go with a k sab 8"

Is the use case for that actual rocking or is it a butcher knife?
The DP gyuto I own is an older (2000 or so) 180 mm. The design of the bolster is slightly different from the newer ones, but the blade geometry is the same (or at least as far as I can tell).

The knife I posted above is a CCK KF2205. It's nominally a butcher knife, specifically for scraping hair off hide and skinning. But it's an awesome little general prep knife. You can do rock chopping, pull cutting, slicing, whatever. It's about 180 mm along the spine, 2.3 mm at its thickest, and weighs around 215 g.

Steve Yun
Aug 7, 2003

I
ANALYZE
CARTOONS


Soiled Meat

Anyone got a good solution for storing six cleavers

Is there a knife block that has slots that go the whole width of the block

Steve Yun
Aug 7, 2003

I
ANALYZE
CARTOONS


Soiled Meat

Flash Gordon Ramsay posted:

God there are so many knives I want but have no need for. Like that cast iron one (or maybe made from a railroad tie?) that the woman had in that Korean cooking video (saw the video somewhere on these dead forums).

That's Maangchi

I think its origins were that they were first made from railroad ties (a century of war torn Korea!) but now they're probably carbon steel, but the railroad name stuck

Submarine Sandpaper
May 27, 2007

ASK ME ABOUT HOW I GHOULISHLY CELEBRATE THE DEATH OF CHILDREN TO TEACH THEIR PARENTS "A LESSON"


Cleaver stands. You could make a multi housing one easily imo

Casu Marzu
Oct 20, 2008



Make a bandolier with slots for each one

Steve Yun
Aug 7, 2003

I
ANALYZE
CARTOONS


Soiled Meat

Casu Marzu posted:

Make a bandolier with slots for each one

If I fell down the stairs I'd end up at the bottom as a bunch of primals

glynnenstein
Feb 18, 2014



Steve Yun posted:

If I fell down the stairs I'd end up at the bottom as a bunch of primals

This is how I want to go out.

Wroughtirony
May 14, 2007



Submarine Sandpaper posted:

There are Japanese knives with french profiles for the best of both worlds. Hard to get though.

My Shun is exactly that!

Steve, please don't die. By all means make a bandolier for your cleavers though. That would own. I want to see pics of you strapped up like the guy in Boondock Saints with Honey in a baby bjorn in the center.

Scott808
Jul 11, 2001


Wroughtirony posted:

My Shun is exactly that!

Steve, please don't die. By all means make a bandolier for your cleavers though. That would own. I want to see pics of you strapped up like the guy in Boondock Saints with Honey in a baby bjorn in the center.

You might be the only person ever to describe a Shun as having a French profile.

Steve Yun
Aug 7, 2003

I
ANALYZE
CARTOONS


Soiled Meat



Speaking of western profile knives

Wroughtirony
May 14, 2007



Scott808 posted:

You might be the only person ever to describe a Shun as having a French profile.

...look at the picture I posted and tell me I'm wrong.

Ranter
Jul 11, 2004



Steve Yun posted:



Speaking of western profile knives

Makes it harder to stab your unfaithful, no good, drunkard, cow rustlin', no good son of a gun husband.

Scott808
Jul 11, 2001


Wroughtirony posted:

...look at the picture I posted and tell me I'm wrong.



All level on the line that runs tip to heel as shown by the thin green line.

Green rectangle under the blade shows what a board would look like under the blade.

Sabatier
Shun Ken Onion
Tojiro DP 270mm
Sukenari 270mm

I don't see how that Shun is anywhere near the classic French profile.

guppy
Sep 21, 2004

sting like a byob

Submarine Sandpaper posted:

There are Japanese knives with french profiles for the best of both worlds. Hard to get though.

I feel like a shill for Mac, but they make a few chef's knives billed specifically as a French profile. I have this one but they have other sizes: https://www.amazon.com/Mac-Knife-Pr...+chef%27s+knife

Steve Yun posted:

Anyone got a good solution for storing six cleavers

Is there a knife block that has slots that go the whole width of the block

You might look at something like this, although you'd have to have a drawer for it. I have a different brand and my CCK fits in the large slots https://www.amazon.com/W%C3%BCsthof...wer+knife+block

glynnenstein
Feb 18, 2014



Shun has a lot of knives that are not that Ken Onion outlier, but I agree that the chef's knives from the classic or premier lines are more german than french. High tips and lots of belly.

Submarine Sandpaper
May 27, 2007

ASK ME ABOUT HOW I GHOULISHLY CELEBRATE THE DEATH OF CHILDREN TO TEACH THEIR PARENTS "A LESSON"


guppy posted:

I feel like a shill for Mac, but they make a few chef's knives billed specifically as a French profile. I have this one but they have other sizes: https://www.amazon.com/Mac-Knife-Pr...+chef%27s+knife
mmmf that looks good. Do you know if you an acetone the mac logo off it though? I suppose I could sand it.

what's the difference between pro and chef series, just fit an finish or is weight a consideration?

I've never seen profiles examined like this before, it's always been belly flat. I.... I don't know how to feel anymore.

Submarine Sandpaper fucked around with this message at Feb 15, 2018 around 14:46

Wroughtirony
May 14, 2007



Scott808 posted:



All level on the line that runs tip to heel as shown by the thin green line.

Green rectangle under the blade shows what a board would look like under the blade.

Sabatier
Shun Ken Onion
Tojiro DP 270mm
Sukenari 270mm

I don't see how that Shun is anywhere near the classic French profile.

I don't see your point. I'm not saying you're wrong, I just don't understand what you're trying to show. Because you can draw a straight line from the tip to the heel of any round knife and draw a straight parallel line and call it a cutting board. I guess when I say "French knife" I mean rounded as opposed to flat like a cleaver or santoku, so I'm not being super precise, since a gyuto is rounded. I'm still confused. ELI5?


e: on second look, are you talking about the Shun being different in that it doesn't have the flat end of the blade like the Sabatier?

Wroughtirony fucked around with this message at Feb 15, 2018 around 17:49

Ranter
Jul 11, 2004



Housemate hosed my 3 year old tojiro DP santoku taking a huge bite out of the edge. I want a pretty damascus santoku anyway. Any recommendations for something < $150?

Yond Cassius
May 22, 2010



Wroughtirony posted:

I don't see your point. I'm not saying you're wrong, I just don't understand what you're trying to show. Because you can draw a straight line from the tip to the heel of any round knife and draw a straight parallel line and call it a cutting board. I guess when I say "French knife" I mean rounded as opposed to flat like a cleaver or santoku, so I'm not being super precise, since a gyuto is rounded. I'm still confused. ELI5?


e: on second look, are you talking about the Shun being different in that it doesn't have the flat end of the blade like the Sabatier?

I think it's about the distance between the tip-heel axis of the knife and the plane of the board. The Shun has a very pronounced curve there, so a relatively large distance and large gaps between the edge and the board, while the other profiles are relatively close and stay much closer to 'in contact' with the board.

glynnenstein
Feb 18, 2014



Wroughtirony posted:

I don't see your point. I'm not saying you're wrong, I just don't understand what you're trying to show. Because you can draw a straight line from the tip to the heel of any round knife and draw a straight parallel line and call it a cutting board. I guess when I say "French knife" I mean rounded as opposed to flat like a cleaver or santoku, so I'm not being super precise, since a gyuto is rounded. I'm still confused. ELI5?


e: on second look, are you talking about the Shun being different in that it doesn't have the flat end of the blade like the Sabatier?

It's harder to appreciate the difference in discussion vs actually feeling how the profiles affect cutting styles. I GISed some pictures to help show why people make a distinction between French and German knives.

Here's a German profile knife being used to rock-chop:

You can see how the large belly created by a high tip lends itself to this motion.

On the other hand, here's a French profile knife being used to push-cut:

Again, the profile shape lends itself to this style with a low tip and long flat.

Other styles of knives also lend their shape to particular usage too, but it's not always so subtle.

e: Pics are from this wirecutter article.

Steve Yun
Aug 7, 2003

I
ANALYZE
CARTOONS


Soiled Meat

Ranter posted:

Housemate hosed my 3 year old tojiro DP santoku taking a huge bite out of the edge. I want a pretty damascus santoku anyway. Any recommendations for something < $150?

How huge? I've had a knife sharpener grind a few millimeters to repair the chip in a friends knife

Ranter
Jul 11, 2004



Not huge huge but when I use it on a steel I feel it, very pronounced bump. I want a pretty knife too.

CrazyLittle
Sep 11, 2001







Clapping Larry

Ranter posted:

Housemate hosed my 3 year old tojiro DP santoku taking a huge bite out of the edge. I want a pretty damascus santoku anyway. Any recommendations for something < $150?

Don't bother with the tojiro dp damascus. It's barely noticeable

Submarine Sandpaper
May 27, 2007

ASK ME ABOUT HOW I GHOULISHLY CELEBRATE THE DEATH OF CHILDREN TO TEACH THEIR PARENTS "A LESSON"


Ranter posted:

Housemate hosed my 3 year old tojiro DP santoku taking a huge bite out of the edge. I want a pretty damascus santoku anyway. Any recommendations for something < $150?

Pictures are not loading but I like https://www.chefknivestogo.com/satadahasa18.html their petty.

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mindphlux
Jan 8, 2004


glynnenstein posted:

It's harder to appreciate the difference in discussion vs actually feeling how the profiles affect cutting styles. I GISed some pictures to help show why people make a distinction between French and German knives.

Here's a German profile knife being used to rock-chop:

You can see how the large belly created by a high tip lends itself to this motion.

On the other hand, here's a French profile knife being used to push-cut:

Again, the profile shape lends itself to this style with a low tip and long flat.

Other styles of knives also lend their shape to particular usage too, but it's not always so subtle.

e: Pics are from this wirecutter article.

those two knives have essentially the same profile, just one photo the person is push cutting, the other they're rocking excessively.

I have 3 wusthofs on my wall, a shun, a gyoto, a messermeister, a couple macs.

there's a difference between a french style knife and a gyoto (though it's slight)

there's no loving difference between a "german" style knife and a "french" chefs knife though, that's just absurd talk - and/or a distinction that was just fabricated ex nihilo. they're the exact same thing. different blades might be shaped differently, but they're the same profile and general curve.

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