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Person Dyslexic
Jul 23, 2007


jetz0r posted:

Since you've played magic, you're already familiar with a lot of concepts that spire newbie guides will talk about. But you do have some biases from M:TG. You're instincts on using skip in the first run were closer to correct. Ignore bad cards, get the ones that make your deck better. The actual niche of tiny decks is pretty small because of the variety of challenges a spire deck is going to face forces you to add cards to meet those challenges. Also because the starting cards are awful, and enemies will put detrimental cards into your deck. A 8 card deck sounds cool, but what about an 8 card, 12 daze deck?

Understanding which challenges you need to prepare for, and how to prepare comes from experience. Each act has 3 different Elites and 3 different bosses, you can see which boss is at the end of the act on the map. But you can't tell which elite you're going to face first, so your deck has try to prepare for all 3 when you hit your first elite node. And it takes some experience to be able to think through how your deck is going to do against sentries, nob, and lag.

Status debuffs are really powerful in this game, because the amount of damage needed to clear fights scales up so high. +25% is always relevant, and in absolute terms gets even better as your deck and enemies scale up.

Bash seems bad when you're partnering and comparing it to your basic strikes. 2 mana for 8, plus 1 then 3 strikes is 8 + 9*4 = 42. 6*6 from strikes is 36. No room for blocking or bad draws and it's barely better. But that's only bad because strike is awful. Once your damage cards scale up, bash improves them so you can still do sufficient damage while also being able to spend mana on blocking. Whatever kind of good attacks you end up with, bash will still be improving them. Getting another turn from the upgrade is also really good, most damage upgrades at 2 mana are 4-5 damage, and increasing a full turn's worth of attacks is easily more than 5 damage.

This is all great advice; To add to it there are also some cards that donít seem amazing in a vacuum because they either arenít great in some situations or you just donít want to see them in al battles but are actually game-breaking against specific fights. Disarm comes to mind as one of these cards; When I first started playing I used to routinely skip it because -2 strength that I couldnt play again seemed weak. Then I discovered that it made some tough fights, like the book of stabbing, utter jokes and now it is usually an instant pick for me. In a small deck it is tougher to keep situations cards around because they act as curses that keep coming up, but in a big deck youíll only see them a few times.

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Yoshi Wins
Jul 14, 2013



Yeah, Disarm is often an investment. Disarm stinks in act 1 until you get to the boss and the boss is either Guardian or Hexaghost because those are the only act 1 fights where the enemy has a multi-attack. But there are lots of multi-attacks later on, including all 3 act 3 bosses (tough to apply the debuff to Donu & Deca though), the act 4 elites, and the Heart.

Tenkaris
Feb 10, 2006

Marcel, if you press that button...



Won today's daily climb, thought Time Eater had me but I survived with 3HP and then my block engine came online... gg!



Aw man, achievement enabler mod didn't work I guess, didn't get it :(



132 cards lmao, 14 claws. Calipers and Unceasing Top put in WORK

Murgos
Oct 21, 2010


A10 silent done, even got the heart. Was a really fun deck. Generally had 10 cards in my hand each turn and generally discarded them all each turn, either for more cards or to turn into shiv+. Also each discard gave three block and I had kunai, so defense was so solid I was usually at full health.

Sometimes everything just comes together.

GlyphGryph
Jun 23, 2013


I know you dont get rewarded for it in anyway, but I really love the mode where you can pick your starter deck. For all its wonder, I kinda hate how little choice you really get in this game sometimes. Obviously the choices you do make (which cards to take, what to play) matter a fuckton, but it also feels like a lot of stuff is too pure random

Shine
Feb 26, 2007

No Muscles For The Majority


GlyphGryph posted:

I know you dont get rewarded for it in anyway, but I really love the mode where you can pick your starter deck. For all its wonder, I kinda hate how little choice you really get in this game sometimes. Obviously the choices you do make (which cards to take, what to play) matter a fuckton, but it also feels like a lot of stuff is too pure random

Sealed Deck + The Ending custom games on A20 is my favorite way to play at the moment.

ASAPRockySituation
May 9, 2010



Tenkaris posted:

Won today's daily climb, thought Time Eater had me but I survived with 3HP and then my block engine came online... gg!



Aw man, achievement enabler mod didn't work I guess, didn't get it :(



132 cards lmao, 14 claws. Calipers and Unceasing Top put in WORK

What mod does the math for you? Iím lazy and I want it

Tenkaris
Feb 10, 2006

Marcel, if you press that button...



I believe that is MintySpire

Samopsa
Nov 9, 2009

Krijgt geen speciaal kerstdiner!


Mintyspire owns

Jedit
Dec 10, 2011

Proudly supporting vanilla legends 1994-2014



Tenkaris posted:

I believe that is MintySpire

Yes, it's part of MintySpire. Another very helpful part is the addon that shows you the next five cards in your deck when you have Frozen Eye - it's a huge timesaver.

NihilCredo
Jun 6, 2011

iram omni possibili modo preme:
plus una illa te diffamabit, quam multæ virtutes commendabunt



I always avoided picking Frozen Eye because I get the feeling it would turn every battle into a giant stressful min-maxxing puzzle.

Kinda like playing Watcher, which I never do either for the same reason. Just give me my dopamines please.

Yoshi Wins
Jul 14, 2013



YMMV, but for me Frozen Eye is de-tilting. If I can see a bad draw coming up on an important turn, I can begin preparing for it. This reduced frustration more than offsets the annoyance of feeling like I need to analyze more lines. Maybe it will ensnare you in analysis paralysis, but if you've never tried it, I recommend giving it at least one shot for that reason.

Jedit
Dec 10, 2011

Proudly supporting vanilla legends 1994-2014



Yoshi Wins posted:

YMMV, but for me Frozen Eye is de-tilting. If I can see a bad draw coming up on an important turn, I can begin preparing for it. This reduced frustration more than offsets the annoyance of feeling like I need to analyze more lines. Maybe it will ensnare you in analysis paralysis, but if you've never tried it, I recommend giving it at least one shot for that reason.

It also defuses those situations where you play Pommel Strike over a regular Strike and draw the card you wanted to play next turn but can't afford this turn. You know it's coming.

Yoshi Wins
Jul 14, 2013



Yeah, no more voluntary card draw dupes. Good for the blood pressure.

NihilCredo
Jun 6, 2011

iram omni possibili modo preme:
plus una illa te diffamabit, quam multæ virtutes commendabunt



Hmm, thinking about it I tend to favour Power-heavy decks precisely because once they get going, it's unlikely that a single bad draw will cost me the fight so I can put on "autopilot" mode to a degree. Maybe with Frozen Eye I will be able to rely on a deck with less long-term steam - then again I suspect such a deck would die horribly to the Heart, with or without Frozen Eye.

On a lighter note, favourite beta art? I've only unlocked green and blue so far, but Corpse Explosion is mine. Puns are good and all but funny art keeps me smiling every time I look at it.

Dyz
Dec 10, 2010


Nirvana and Deus ex Machina are pretty good beta arts

Walla
Sep 17, 2017




Just cleared A8 with the Silent and it was a Heart Kill. 2 Footworks, Accuracy+, Wrist Blade and a bunch of shivs but it was still close at the end. I wouldn't have won if Spear and Shield hadn't dropped a Caltrops+. Did it all on 3 base energy as well.

Yoshi Wins
Jul 14, 2013



Cutest beta art is Apparition

WrightOfWay
Jul 24, 2010




Yoshi Wins posted:

Cutest beta art is Apparition

My fave is Boot Sequence.

rchandra
Apr 30, 2013




WrightOfWay posted:

My fave is Boot Sequence.

IIRC the Boot relic was added because people missed the beta art after Boot Sequence got real art.

Zore
Sep 21, 2010




Meteor Strike is my favorite beta art.

drrockso20
May 6, 2013

Has Not Actually Done Cocaine


I swear it is loving impossible to beat this game, have made it to floor 50 about twice but most of my runs end between floors 20 and 30 because Act 1 is usually pretty easy as long as your luck isn't too bad, but Act 2 is just full of obnoxious bullshit

Tenkaris
Feb 10, 2006

Marcel, if you press that button...



drrockso20 posted:

I swear it is loving impossible to beat this game, have made it to floor 50 about twice but most of my runs end between floors 20 and 30 because Act 1 is usually pretty easy as long as your luck isn't too bad, but Act 2 is just full of obnoxious bullshit

https://youtu.be/G9C0yk6L_bE

This is the video that prompted me to git gud.

To be fair, Iím still not good, I have <10 wins total and havenít successfully ascended yet in any of those. But this video made me realize i shouldnít always take cards when offered and just opened my eyes to how little I had been thinking about the game. YMMV but itís really a neat game even if you sometimes get screwed

mcvey
Aug 31, 2006

go caps haha

*Washington Capitals #1 Fan On DeviantArt*


drrockso20 posted:

I swear it is loving impossible to beat this game, have made it to floor 50 about twice but most of my runs end between floors 20 and 30 because Act 1 is usually pretty easy as long as your luck isn't too bad, but Act 2 is just full of obnoxious bullshit

Post a run

drrockso20
May 6, 2013

Has Not Actually Done Cocaine


Tenkaris posted:

https://youtu.be/G9C0yk6L_bE

This is the video that prompted me to git gud.

To be fair, I’m still not good, I have <10 wins total and haven’t successfully ascended yet in any of those. But this video made me realize i shouldn’t always take cards when offered and just opened my eyes to how little I had been thinking about the game. YMMV but it’s really a neat game even if you sometimes get screwed

That was ridiculous

mcvey posted:

Post a run

Playing on PS4 so that would be a bit tricky, pretty sure I own it on PC too, just haven't gotten around to trying that version

Tenkaris
Feb 10, 2006

Marcel, if you press that button...



drrockso20 posted:

That was ridiculous

Playing on PS4 so that would be a bit tricky, pretty sure I own it on PC too, just haven't gotten around to trying that version

Yeah, and it's not a great learning tool because he goes so fast you can't even parse the cards he's grabbing without slowing the playback, and if you try to replicate this you will have a hard time because your chance of getting the exact cards needed to pull this off is not that great. I think I spammed Ironclad runs with like 30 losses until I finally hit it, but it got me both my first win and the 20 minute win achievement.

Some encounters are just really bad for your draft, it hurts. I still get a little cocky/comfortable and think I can get by without resting and then hit the EXACT encounter that ruins my poo poo :)

Deckit
Sep 1, 2012



Shine posted:

Sealed Deck + The Ending custom games on A20 is my favorite way to play at the moment.

This is a really fun way to play. I have never messed with custom games. Time to sink in another 200 hours.

Cpt_Obvious
Jun 18, 2007
Probation
Can't post for 40 hours!


drrockso20 posted:

I swear it is loving impossible to beat this game, have made it to floor 50 about twice but most of my runs end between floors 20 and 30 because Act 1 is usually pretty easy as long as your luck isn't too bad, but Act 2 is just full of obnoxious bullshit

Try to avoid hallway fights in act 2. Some are as difficult as elites with a fraction of the rewards. Instead, try and aim for events because of how good the act 2 events are. And fight as many elites as you think you can handle.

Walla
Sep 17, 2017




Watch some of Baalorlord or Jorbs on YouTube if you really want an idea of how to get better. As much as I rag on him, Jorbs has a great series of tutorial videos and his Overexplained Silent run is what started to push me over the edge to be better. Baalorlord I find more entertaining and he explains most of his decisions, especially in his Defect and Watcher runs.

NihilCredo
Jun 6, 2011

iram omni possibili modo preme:
plus una illa te diffamabit, quam multæ virtutes commendabunt



Tenkaris posted:

Yeah, and it's not a great learning tool because he goes so fast you can't even parse the cards he's grabbing without slowing the playback, and if you try to replicate this you will have a hard time because your chance of getting the exact cards needed to pull this off is not that great.

You can play the video at 0.25x, but it's not a great learning tool also because he's cheating.

At the end of Act 1 he exploits a glitch with Pandora's Box to remove all Strikes/Defends and get a 4-card deck. (And later he uses the same glitch to dodge a curse.) According to the comments he specifically used an older version of the game where those cheats weren't patched. I stopped watching because once you have the perfect hand every turn, Dazes aside, of course it was pretty much autopilot.

Yoshi Wins
Jul 14, 2013



It's definitely pretty old. I didn't watch much of it, but there was a Corruption in the first shop, and it was an uncommon. That got changed a looong time ago.

GlyphGryph
Jun 23, 2013


I like playing sealed deck + endless + blight chests. Just a brutal endurance run, see how long I can go before I lose.

Jedit
Dec 10, 2011

Proudly supporting vanilla legends 1994-2014



NihilCredo posted:

At the end of Act 1 he exploits a glitch with Pandora's Box to remove all Strikes/Defends and get a 4-card deck. (And later he uses the same glitch to dodge a curse.) According to the comments he specifically used an older version of the game where those cheats weren't patched.

Pandora's Glitch still works, so the commenter is wrong on that. But yes, it's cheating in most circumstances (although I think speedrunning allows it).

E: definitely a much older version of the game, if only because the video is three years old. Jax hasn't exhausted in a very long time.

Jedit fucked around with this message at 08:49 on Sep 13, 2021

NihilCredo
Jun 6, 2011

iram omni possibili modo preme:
plus una illa te diffamabit, quam multæ virtutes commendabunt



What do you guys usually pick for the starter boon? (When trying hard)

With Ironclad, the starter relic is too good, so I tend to pick the transform 2 cards options. IC archetypes are somewhat distinct so if I pick up e.g. a Feel No Pain and Second Wind right from the start, I have a good idea of what to look out for.

With Silent, I think the starter relic is poo poo so I always trade it for a boss relic. Ditto Defect, although the starter relic is not nearly as bad: losing it hurts a bit in Act 1 which can be tough for Defect, but later on a single lightning orb is pretty worthless. Plus both characters can roll awesome boss relics like Wrist Blade or Inserter.

Of course, sometimes I'll roll Busted Crown or Ectoplasm and the run is basically over before it began, but at least it's quick!

Watcher, I haven't played enough to have a clue, but the Miracle relic also seems so-so to me.

No Wave
Sep 18, 2005

Yogg-Saron fan #1


On all characters I like common relic > rare relic with manageable downside > transform 2 with manageable downside.

If none of the above are available I'll usually swap, and on watcher I'll always swap no matter what.

droll
Jan 9, 2020


I enjoy 1 hp if the path allows for a 1hp elite.

Zore
Sep 21, 2010




NihilCredo posted:

What do you guys usually pick for the starter boon? (When trying hard)

With Ironclad, the starter relic is too good, so I tend to pick the transform 2 cards options. IC archetypes are somewhat distinct so if I pick up e.g. a Feel No Pain and Second Wind right from the start, I have a good idea of what to look out for.

With Silent, I think the starter relic is poo poo so I always trade it for a boss relic. Ditto Defect, although the starter relic is not nearly as bad: losing it hurts a bit in Act 1 which can be tough for Defect, but later on a single lightning orb is pretty worthless. Plus both characters can roll awesome boss relics like Wrist Blade or Inserter.

Of course, sometimes I'll roll Busted Crown or Ectoplasm and the run is basically over before it began, but at least it's quick!

Watcher, I haven't played enough to have a clue, but the Miracle relic also seems so-so to me.

Silent has probably the best Starter relic of all of them. I don't think I ever relic swap it. Defect is also really tough to swap because the free lightning orb is invaluable damage for elites in act 1 even if it doesn't matter later. Ironclad similarly gets the most out of a fourth energy early so its often worthwhile.

Watcher relic swap is basically free though. There are like 3 hits that are worse or sidegrades to her starting relic while everything else is better.

I almost always just pick a common/rare relic or transform 2 with everyone though

Tenkaris
Feb 10, 2006

Marcel, if you press that button...



NihilCredo posted:

What do you guys usually pick for the starter boon? (When trying hard)

With Ironclad, the starter relic is too good, so I tend to pick the transform 2 cards options. IC archetypes are somewhat distinct so if I pick up e.g. a Feel No Pain and Second Wind right from the start, I have a good idea of what to look out for.

With Silent, I think the starter relic is poo poo so I always trade it for a boss relic. Ditto Defect, although the starter relic is not nearly as bad: losing it hurts a bit in Act 1 which can be tough for Defect, but later on a single lightning orb is pretty worthless. Plus both characters can roll awesome boss relics like Wrist Blade or Inserter.

Of course, sometimes I'll roll Busted Crown or Ectoplasm and the run is basically over before it began, but at least it's quick!

Watcher, I haven't played enough to have a clue, but the Miracle relic also seems so-so to me.

With Watcher, Silent and Defect I sometimes like the upgraded versions of the default relic, which requires holding on to it and upgrading it. I feel like I havenít seen relic swap as an option on any of my non-IC runs this week though, and Iím the same as you; I like the IC relic far too much for that.

Tenkaris fucked around with this message at 21:57 on Sep 13, 2021

WrightOfWay
Jul 24, 2010




Can the Neow relic swap give you the upgraded starter relics? They are boss relics after all.

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Zore
Sep 21, 2010




WrightOfWay posted:

Can the Neow relic swap give you the upgraded starter relics? They are boss relics after all.

Nope.

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