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DontMockMySmock posted:There is no card where you should "always" take the first copy; there is no card that you should take "99.9% of the time." Seek and Adrenaline are close, but Snecko Eye exists. Defragment is probably there for me tbh. Focus is so, so ridiculously good for Defect. Ditto Wraith form.
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Aug 17, 2022 22:24
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Zore posted:Defragment is probably there for me tbh. Focus is so, so ridiculously good for Defect. spoken like someone who isn't constantly trying to make Reprogram good, aka someone smarter than me
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Aug 17, 2022 22:27
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Zore posted:Defragment is probably there for me tbh. Focus is so, so ridiculously good for Defect. Ditto Wraith form. what if you have two biased cog
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Aug 17, 2022 22:37
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Situations where you don't take a wraith form are generally when you won't be able to upgrade it and you don't have other upgraded wraith forms/apparitions to extend intangibility. It's definitely up there as one of the best cards in the game but unlike some others usually NEEDS an upgrade to go from eh to amazing. Most common scenarios for that are when you have fusion hammer, or when it's the act 2 boss rare reward, you're going for a heart kill, and you don't have the red/green keys and so can't guarantee pathing through an extra campfire. Also if you just don't need it because your defense is basically set or you're infinite or whatever it can just end up being dead weight in your deck that you don't want to play because it costs too much energy/has a downside that can totally screw your existing defensive strategy. Definitely still a card you want to pick most of the time when you see it though.
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Aug 17, 2022 22:49
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Verviticus posted:what if you have two biased cog one of my heart kills was that and orange pellets, which shockingly enough, is really broken
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Aug 17, 2022 22:50
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what cards either have the best upgrades, or alternately, absolutely need to be upgraded (discounting Searing Blow because that's cheating) any 1-weak to 2-weak is really big for Silent (especially in a small deck where that means you can more or less proc weak indefinitely) but Fission basically has to be upgraded to be worth playing
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Aug 17, 2022 22:52
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Verviticus posted:what if you have two biased cog There is no such thing as 'too much' focus  and I will die on that hill.Honestly I would pick a Defrag over a Biased Cog if I already had a Biased cog and no source of artifact/orange pellets. The scaling debuff is brutal
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Aug 17, 2022 22:53
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Andrast posted:i struggle to think of a realistic deck that wouldn't like at least one wraith form In a vacuum, you're spending 3 energy in order to take some chip damage for 2 turns and then be unable to block for the rest of the fight. If you're stuck on 3 energy, it's really clunky and doesn't really do all that much. And if you can draw and play tons of cards every turn and block sufficiently already, wraith form is just clutter. It's a good card that can be a central part of your late game blocking strategy, but it's also very overrated and absolutely not always pickable.
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Aug 17, 2022 23:24
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Mymla posted:In a vacuum, you're spending 3 energy in order to take some chip damage for 2 turns and then be unable to block for the rest of the fight. If you're stuck on 3 energy, it's really clunky and doesn't really do all that much. And if you can draw and play tons of cards every turn and block sufficiently already, wraith form is just clutter. It's a good card that can be a central part of your late game blocking strategy, but it's also very overrated and absolutely not always pickable. What do you mean, "unable to block for the rest of the fight"? I guess that happens if you play Wraith Form too early in long fights. But you can just. . . not do that? You're not forced to play it the first time you draw it. Wraith form is not "overrated", it's absolutely correctly rated as one of the most powerful cards in the game. Nothing is "always pickable" but Wraith Form is pretty up there. The main reason I wouldn't pick it is if I already have a block engine going (footworks and backflips/blurs/dodge and rolls, presumably) that is so powerful that another block card wouldn't help and would only serve to dilute what I already have going on. But that situation is very, very rare. More likely, I've got a block engine that's, at best, pretty good, and a Wraith Form will help extend the deck's lifetime against scaling enemies like Time Eater or the Heart.
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Aug 17, 2022 23:55
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When people are rating a card as "I can't imagine a deck that doesn't want it", when it is in fact very easy to imagine a deck that doesn't want it, that's overrating the card. I think I probably pick it a little over half the time I see it, because frequently it's just not the best card in the reward screen.
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Aug 18, 2022 00:07
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Feels Villeneuve posted:what cards either have the best upgrades, or alternately, absolutely need to be upgraded (discounting Searing Blow because that's cheating) Whirlwind. Don't pick it unless you can upgrade, and then it's a great AOE card.
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Aug 18, 2022 02:07
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I didn't really expect anybody to disagree with the Definitive list. But on reflection, I see where the arguments are coming from. First, I must sincerely apologize that when I said "Definitive", I wasn't thinking about a lot of situations, such as accidentally buying Prismatic Shard, playing the daily modifiers, or running sketchy mods. I can see no way to really account for these types of situations, other than to put a * next to Definitive, or to remove Electrodynamics from S-Tier. I have decided to adopt the former approach for the time being. Secondly, thanks to everyone who reminded me that there were Watcher cards other than Rushdown and Tantrum, that was an honest oversight. But since technically Vault is about as good as 1/3 of a Wraith Form, that does make it S+ tier. Scrawl is also being included at S-. Omniscience is excluded because it always likes to make up new weird zones to put cards in so that they do the wrong thing, and also the beta version that scryed your whole deck was cooler. Finally, I made a few clarifications in the descriptions of the tiers. In case it is not clear from the naming conventions, "S+" cards are better than "S" cards, which are better than "S-" cards. So taking Wraith Form over Adrenaline does not imply that Adrenaline is not S-Tier; in fact that's why they are in tiers. So thanks again for all the input, I will now present the revised Definitive* List *Not counting mods, dailys, misclicks, or lucid spire dreams. S+ To clarify, these are cards that are always the right choice to pick, not cards that are good in every conceivable situation. Sure, you can draw Wraith Form instead of block at 1hp against the Heart and die to Beat of Death. But that's not because Wraith Form was the wrong pick, that's because the rest of your deck was bad. Wraith Form +Vault S Cards you should either always take the first copy, or take every copy offered 99.4% of the time. (Adjusted the percentage down slightly, moved Piercing Wail up even though the list is not in a particular order) Corruption Battle Trance Feel No Pain Biased Cognition Electrodynamics Seek Reboot Piercing Wail Adrenaline After Image Malaise Rushdown Tantrum S- Cards you should almost always take the first copy, except for edge cases. Some of these cards are worth taking even when they are bad, because the potential upside is so good. Feel No Pain would be here, except it's even better. Exhume Feed Reaper Impervious Offering Buffer Echo Form Calculated Gamble Burst Corpse Explosion +Scrawl
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Aug 18, 2022 03:03
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I don't understand the choice for feel no pain. IMO Dark pact is way better, but I don't think either of them are slam picks. Edit: you have to have some amount of exhaust before picking either of them or they become dead weight.
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Aug 18, 2022 03:10
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What do you guys think of Frost Prime?
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Aug 18, 2022 03:16
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Cpt_Obvious posted:I don't understand the choice for feel no pain. IMO Dark pact is way better, but I don't think either of them are slam picks. The only IC power I will pick speculatively is early Evolve. Seems like that always has a way to take a strong elite/boss and make them work for you. It utterly nerfs Sentries, Slime Boss, and Hexa and that's just act 1. I've never had a speculative evolve fail me.
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Aug 18, 2022 03:37
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I'll do a speculative pick for Fire Breathing for a similar reason, it's a hard counter for multiple act 1 elites/bosses
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Aug 18, 2022 03:53
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You'd really pick all these defect cards over defragment?
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Aug 18, 2022 03:56
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I'm could nitpick specific cards, but I wont. More importantly, I still think those definitions of S+ and S encompass literally no cards.
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Aug 18, 2022 04:09
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just picked a common over Wraith Form (piercing wail, it was act 1) Feels Villeneuve fucked around with this message at 04:37 on Aug 18, 2022 |
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Aug 18, 2022 04:34
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Feels Villeneuve posted:just picked a common over Wraith Form very bold of you to admit Crimes
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Aug 18, 2022 05:50
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I'd rather have a wraith form than a piercing wail in every Act 1 elite fight, did you pick it to deal with hexaghost or guardian?
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Aug 18, 2022 06:42
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  Finally cleared A6 with Ironclad (split into two images so you can see the seed and all the cards). Insanely lucky seed, Armaments on floor 1, Reaper on floor 3, bought Thunderclap at floor 4, and we're off to the races. Bought Strange Spoon on floor 22 for the heck of it, only to end up with Dead Branch later on. Never had a chance to get Corruption but that was fine, between Rupture, Runic Cube, Offering, and Bloodletting, along with plenty of exhaust options, I always had lots of energy and cards to choose from. Barricade and Impervious didn't hurt either. And lest I forget, Feed getting my HP up to 132 was pretty awesome. The Corrupt Heart died ratchet and I'm not even sure how. It's like Jorbs said, think for five seconds before you make a move. Helps a lot. The other thing I paid more attention to was energy cost of cards in the first act. I passed on an early Corruption specifically because the 3 energy is hard to support. By the way, is the "Invincibility" trait of the Heart bugged? Didn't seem to slow me down much, I believe I did over 300 damage on the last round. I think that was a single attack using Body Slam, which may explain it....
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Aug 18, 2022 06:47
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I still don't really agree with Wraith Form always being the correct pick. Like, a not extremely infrequent situation for Silent is that you get through act 1 and 2 with good frontloaded damage/relics and good block scaling, but your damage scaling is mediocre and you had to use a ritual potion or something to beat the Act 2 boss. If I'm in that situation and the game is offering me terror/pk/catalyst vs wraith form in act 3, then there's a good chance I'll pick one of those depending on my deck because 3 turns of intangible don't matter if you never kill the thing that's hitting you. Or if you're deck is one Acro+/Tactician+ away from an infinite. Etc. Fundamentally this isn't a game where there are cards you can say are Always the Correct Choice, even assuming you are playing this game to maximize winrate, and not, you know, have fun. Edit: I was going to play this game after I got home from work but I ended up posting about it instead and now I should go to bed and I'm sad ereror fucked around with this message at 07:04 on Aug 18, 2022 |
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Aug 18, 2022 07:01
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Feels Villeneuve posted:what cards either have the best upgrades Plus the usual suspects like Eruption and Armaments. DontMockMySmock posted:I'm could nitpick specific cards, but I wont. More importantly, I still think those definitions of S+ and S encompass literally no cards. 
Zephro fucked around with this message at 09:03 on Aug 18, 2022 |
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Aug 18, 2022 08:54
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Man, when this game’s good is sooo good and addictive. Had a super fun run with Silent where I took down the awakened one without taking a hit. It was only A1 so not that impressive but I’m happy nevertheless. Had several dex boosting cards and relics so in the final turns a regular defend gave me 20+ def, plus I had some apparition cards in case of emergencies. Somehow it feels like my best and most successful runs are the ones where I don’t really have a plan and just go with the choices that feel best in the moment.
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Aug 18, 2022 09:02
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Mymla posted:In a vacuum, you're spending 3 energy in order to take some chip damage for 2 turns and then be unable to block for the rest of the fight. If you're stuck on 3 energy, it's really clunky and doesn't really do all that much. And if you can draw and play tons of cards every turn and block sufficiently already, wraith form is just clutter. It's a good card that can be a central part of your late game blocking strategy, but it's also very overrated and absolutely not always pickable. wrongest post in this thread. You shouldn't be playing it to block some chip damage, you should play it when you're taking a bunch of damage. It basically gives infinite block the turn you play it AND the turn after! Also it doesn't work like Panic Button, you can still block after you play it, you just block for a little less per card, unless you have Artifact or Orange Pellets, or other ways to reduce damage like After Image or Piercing Wail or other sources of intangible. Spending 3 energy to block 99% of the damage for the next 2(3) turns HAS to be better than just playing 3 defends, right? Even if you have better blocking cards, if you have Wraith Form, you don't have to play your block cards it lets you go all out on offense. Play that bouncing flask + catalyst, play 8 attacks and Finisher. Go right ahead and set up that insane Nightmare turn, you don't have to spend energy blocking, its fine!
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Aug 18, 2022 14:33
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A Moose posted:wrongest post in this thread. You shouldn't be playing it to block some chip damage, you should play it when you're taking a bunch of damage. It basically gives infinite block the turn you play it AND the turn after! Also it doesn't work like Panic Button, you can still block after you play it, you just block for a little less per card, unless you have Artifact or Orange Pellets, or other ways to reduce damage like After Image or Piercing Wail or other sources of intangible. I know how to use wraith form, and I know it's one of the most powerful cards in the game. Read my post before you reply. I've never said it's not good, but I don't like how people act like it's an instant slam pick in nearly any situation.
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Aug 18, 2022 15:21
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i think seek and adrenaline are the only rares I instapick regardless of anything excepting Snecko Eye which is a special case
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Aug 18, 2022 15:23
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Feels Villeneuve posted:what cards either have the best upgrades, or alternately, absolutely need to be upgraded (discounting Searing Blow because that's cheating) Darkness, fission, prepared, berzerk, true grit, catalyst.
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Aug 18, 2022 16:37
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ASAPRockySituation posted:What do you guys think of Frost Prime? What do you think about that guy?
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Aug 18, 2022 19:13
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Coolheaded is also a very good upgrade.
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Aug 18, 2022 19:16
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Whirlwind is basically unpickable without an upgrade, and becomes very good aoe with it.
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Aug 18, 2022 19:35
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ASAPRockySituation posted:What do you guys think of Frost Prime? Hes great i love Content Creator that asks for twitch subs constantly
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Aug 18, 2022 19:53
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This is one of those games apparently where every choice i think is good sucks, actually
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Aug 18, 2022 20:00
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Cpt_Obvious posted:Whirlwind is basically unpickable without an upgrade, and becomes very good aoe with it. Nah if you have Akabeko or some strength scaling it's usually pretty decent. Like obviously it's better upgraded but hardly unusable otherwise.
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Aug 18, 2022 20:06
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Eason the Fifth posted:This is one of those games apparently where every choice i think is good sucks, actually
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Aug 18, 2022 20:11
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I like picking the good cards They're usually good picks
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Aug 18, 2022 20:32
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I'll mostly skip the bad cards
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Aug 18, 2022 20:35
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Let's go to the opposite of 'must-pick' cards What are some cards you have never picked Like for me this is probably Distraction Unload Reprogram Overclock Wreath of Flames Pressure Points Conjure Blade Evaluate Then like half the colorless cards Magnetism, Chrysalis, Metamorphosis, Transmutation, Impatience, Forethought, Jack of All Trades, Mind Blast, Dramatic Entrance
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Aug 18, 2022 21:03
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i kinda like dramatic entrance, it's not as good as Backstab but it's not bad
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Aug 18, 2022 21:06
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