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No Wave
Sep 18, 2005

HA! HA! NICE! WHAT A TOOL!

Fat Samurai posted:

but boardgaming has taught me that 9 mediocre and 1 good cards are way, way better than 10 mediocre and 2 good cards.
I don't understand why that is. If my choice early on as ironclad is buy double tap or remove a card I'm probably taking the tap. Is that incorrect/if so i don't get the reasoning.

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No Wave
Sep 18, 2005

HA! HA! NICE! WHAT A TOOL!
Yeah but the post i quoted said mediocre: good 9:1 is way, way better than 10:2 which I didn't (don't) get.

I certainly understand that 6:4 is much better than 12:9 ofc because you'll pretty consistently have all the cards you want and no weird hands.

No Wave
Sep 18, 2005

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Diediedie and that dagger aoe that hit twice aren't too bad. It just hurts more having cards that don't contribute to your win con with silent. Ironchad can just load up on dece cards and win.

No Wave
Sep 18, 2005

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It is as fun now as I expect it will be at release. There is clearly more content to be added however.

No Wave
Sep 18, 2005

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What should make this easier to balance than PvP CCGs is that this game is fine unbalanced. They can have op card synergies as long as they're not attainable every run. Epic Fetus isn't a problem to have in Isaac even though it's a free win when you find him (the high from finding items like that is what makes the game so addictive).

No Wave fucked around with this message at 19:48 on Jan 31, 2018

No Wave
Sep 18, 2005

HA! HA! NICE! WHAT A TOOL!
I think size matters more in the early game so that really good ones you find later on have a bigger potential impact. By the third map unless you have some combo you're trying to hit you can take cards that just make your deck stronger.

No Wave
Sep 18, 2005

HA! HA! NICE! WHAT A TOOL!
Glacier is probably the best card in the game that does not draw you cards.

No Wave
Sep 18, 2005

HA! HA! NICE! WHAT A TOOL!

Hackan Slash posted:

The only thing I would consider close would be disarm/malaise because they also provide ongoing mitigation.
I'm not in the habit of fighting the heart... If I were I'd probably agree because those cards are so important.

I'm also too lazybad to bother going past asc 8 and mostly do dailies so i dont actually know what I'm talking about for real difficulties.

No Wave
Sep 18, 2005

HA! HA! NICE! WHAT A TOOL!
Which ascension are you on? The game changes fairly dramatically at some point.

No Wave
Sep 18, 2005

HA! HA! NICE! WHAT A TOOL!
You end up "maining" the character that you're worst at because you have to play them more to progress.

No Wave
Sep 18, 2005

HA! HA! NICE! WHAT A TOOL!
I mostly do daily runs very casually and I've lost against awakened one and time eater plenty, usually with really dumb decks. I don't play very seriously so decks without real scaling can hobble their way to awakened one but be too slow for the second form and totally stupid decks can get hosed by time eater (thanks devs I'll go poison or strengthen every fuckin game like I'm supposed to).

No Wave
Sep 18, 2005

HA! HA! NICE! WHAT A TOOL!

RyokoTK posted:

Donu and Deca can't really be stalled out like Awakened One and Time Eater, since you can't control their strength gain (outside of killing Donu, at which point you've won anyway), so it's definitely the only one of the act 3 bosses where being able to dish out 250+ damage in a relatively short time frame is aggressively tested. In other words, you need to be able to deploy meaningful scaling very quickly.

All of them punish bad decks, basically: Donu/Deca tests your ability to scale quickly, Awakened One tests your ability to scale meaningfully, and Time Eater tests your ability to play efficiently. If your goal is to beat the Heart, you need to do all three of those anyway.
Time eater punishes it in a special way that more or less does not exist elsewhere in the game. The way you mess up weird combo decks is established throughout the rest of the game as being done via status cards, time eater has no real precedent and is not a bigger badder version of things you've seen before. It has been the boss casual players hate since day 1 exactly because it hoses bad decks more than standard ones and because it's a weird brand new lesson sprung as the literal last enemy you face. It's like any other game asking you to master some new skill instead of testing the ones you used throughout the rest of the game.

The heart is an optional bonus super boss, it is a totally different story and you dont see people complaining about the beat of death very often.

No Wave fucked around with this message at 22:55 on Jul 9, 2019

No Wave
Sep 18, 2005

HA! HA! NICE! WHAT A TOOL!

RyokoTK posted:

You also never saw people complaining about Awakened One having three heretofore unseen mechanics (curiosity, HP regen, reviving at 0 HP) and it used to be incredibly punishing for new players before they nerfed curiosity. What’s the difference? Time Eater making you pay attention to what you’re doing isn’t an unreasonable ask for a final boss.

Also my first win was the first time I saw Time Eater, Awakened One and Champ pre-nerfs were always my bane.

eta: Time Eater isn’t even the first enemy to make you think before you play certain cards. Gremlin Nob, Chosen, and Guardian immediately come to mind.
That's not the problem people have with time eater (idk why you would ever assume the fight being too skill testing is the issue, fuckin lol). The issue is questionable but fun decks/cards getting hosed by a mechanic that was not even hinted at throughout the other 15-40 encounters in the run. If you have dozens of fights to test a deck you would think some of those fights would involve a mechanic that a final boss is completely about, like punishing you for playing a bunch of that draw a card maybe gain 2 block in silent. But it only shows up in the last fight, there is zero cost to running escape plan besides time eater (and heart, but heart does not count, and maybe sneko if you're being generous but the power level is rather different).

It's not like a big bad problem StS is obviously still a good game. But I do not like time eater, it puts a significant tax on cards and decks that other enemies and bosses do not test.

No Wave fucked around with this message at 06:02 on Jul 10, 2019

No Wave
Sep 18, 2005

HA! HA! NICE! WHAT A TOOL!
I can't even say it's bad design. Sometimes things that feel bad are good for the game, and this game is so successful when played in a variety of different ways that idk maybe these things all work for reasons I don't understand. I just know I am always happier getting the no-op donu deca during dailies that lets my deck do its thing.

No Wave
Sep 18, 2005

HA! HA! NICE! WHAT A TOOL!
Ascension 1 is actually my favorite casual mode over A0 because you want to fight as many elites as possible. If my relics dont go off the screen, whats the point?

No Wave
Sep 18, 2005

HA! HA! NICE! WHAT A TOOL!
Strengthen seems like a strong archetype in lower asc levels because you'll have time to scale.

Ironclad's auto pick common is shrug it off and the the auto pick rare is battle trance, and the auto pick legendary is offering.

So the basic gameplay loop is play defensively while you increase your strength then use sword boomerang/heavy blow/whatever. I havent played past asc 8 so idk what to do when this stops working.

A typical good deck has four shrug it offs, an offering, a battle trance, ideally demon form/upgraded limit break, an enrage or two, and one of the lesser strengthen cards (spot weakness, flex maybe if your deck is small enough to realistically hit flex+limit break sometimes). You can get by without the legendaries you'll just have to rely on your other strengthen sources more.

I dont think this is the correct way to play the character in higher asc so I'm curious for other replies.

No Wave fucked around with this message at 15:55 on Jul 18, 2019

No Wave
Sep 18, 2005

HA! HA! NICE! WHAT A TOOL!
Heart is maybe a little easier on A1 than A0 because you fight more elites. Very minor though.

No Wave
Sep 18, 2005

HA! HA! NICE! WHAT A TOOL!
Coffee dripper is fine in low asc (as are lots of things), so if you're low asc and it's been working out that's not too surprising. At some point resting becomes close to mandatory, act 2 eventually becomes a total freakin nightmare.

No Wave fucked around with this message at 04:45 on Aug 14, 2019

No Wave
Sep 18, 2005

HA! HA! NICE! WHAT A TOOL!
The monk

starting relic: frozen eye

No Wave
Sep 18, 2005

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forcing archetypes works for a while if you dont mind losing 70 percent of your runs and then steamrollering the other 30.

No Wave
Sep 18, 2005

HA! HA! NICE! WHAT A TOOL!
I stopped bothering climbing asc when I realized it meant I couldnt pick early accuracy anymore

No Wave
Sep 18, 2005

HA! HA! NICE! WHAT A TOOL!

Electoral Surgery posted:

Why do people think wraithform is good? The high cost and dex penalty seem way, way more powerful of a downside than three turns of still-accumulating-a-few-points-of-damage.
Theoretically you can win the fight or cast another wraith form in those three turns making the downside meaningless. Use it more and you'll see how good it is.

No Wave
Sep 18, 2005

HA! HA! NICE! WHAT A TOOL!
isnt endless mode in the base game's custom modes?

No Wave
Sep 18, 2005

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In StS it's possible learn on low ascension to take a card about a third of the time in hallway fights so you can hit an amazin 15 card deck that rolls over act 3 if you get that far.

Unlearning that is really important, because it is wrong and you dont need to be so op in act 3 that having predator in your deck weakens you very much. There are cards you dont want in act 3 that you very much do want in act 1 and 2 and it's usually worth picking them.

No Wave
Sep 18, 2005

HA! HA! NICE! WHAT A TOOL!
They have ethereal and exhaust. Would be pretty filthy if they didnt exhaust, ha.

No Wave
Sep 18, 2005

HA! HA! NICE! WHAT A TOOL!
Calling bell change seems good though man it would suck to get normality/regret.

Hovering Kite seemed like one of those cards that was good but I was way too lazy to ever play + it seemed feelbad so I like it!

No Wave
Sep 18, 2005

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maybe we just revealed that he's colorblind?

No Wave
Sep 18, 2005

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it's way stronger now. Well, for most decks.

No Wave
Sep 18, 2005

HA! HA! NICE! WHAT A TOOL!
if you've never made a deck thats unwinnable vs time eater and would steamroll the other two I doubt we'll ever see eye to eye on what's fun about this game.

No Wave
Sep 18, 2005

HA! HA! NICE! WHAT A TOOL!
there are more ways to play this game than taking decks to A20. There is a very popular mode called "daily run" which often involves picking dozens of colorless cards that don't do anything. I don't think serious grinders are the ones complaining about time eater or ever have been.

No Wave
Sep 18, 2005

HA! HA! NICE! WHAT A TOOL!
The best act 3 deck is small, but you'll have a weaker deck in acts 1 and 2 (huge generalization ofc). StS has a very mean act 2, which means that playing entirely for act 3 strength will make you lose a lot. Most of the high asc players I've seen play with rather large decks. If you find yourself dying in act 2 a lot being too selective might be your problem.

Consistent heart kills are a different question entirely and that's black magic I'll never understand.

No Wave fucked around with this message at 03:46 on Oct 1, 2019

No Wave
Sep 18, 2005

HA! HA! NICE! WHAT A TOOL!

DalaranJ posted:

Someone explain to me why I like this game so much more than Dicey Dungeons.
You dont usually become op in DD like you do in this game. DD is like if StS ended in act 2.

Also drawing cards is more fun rng than rolling dice imo.

StS also does a better job promoting fun mechanics than DD imo. Plus the scaling in StS tends to be really fast so there arent really endless grueling fights.

No Wave fucked around with this message at 21:46 on Mar 5, 2020

No Wave
Sep 18, 2005

HA! HA! NICE! WHAT A TOOL!
I dont mean to knock DD too hard, but it's the kind of game I should totally be into but the thief was the only class I enjoyed.

(Full disclosure, I'm the kind of player whose favorite gameplay loop is fighting hard in the early game to earn the right to mash my face on the keyboard and still win in the lategame.)

No Wave
Sep 18, 2005

HA! HA! NICE! WHAT A TOOL!

Color Printer posted:

I've never done the event that gives you Intangible cards because I've never had a deck where I thought they would work well enough to offset the massive HP loss
that event is a free win on low ascension more often than not. Start picking it to see.

No Wave
Sep 18, 2005

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I think people get mad about rogue legacy because you can level through everything but it has Rogue in the name.

No Wave
Sep 18, 2005

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More people beat A10 than beat the heart with I/S/D. I think A10 is much harder than an A1 heart clear so it just shows me that a lot of people don't really care for the heart or just skip classes they're not into.

No Wave
Sep 18, 2005

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He didnt stream anything for a year, apparently he did some work on runeterra but hasnt touched it at all on stream. He started trying to winstreak watcher from 1 to 20, got to 18-20 a few times but never made it now is wrapping up a successful 20-1 winstreak.

He has been doing this almost full time for a month now.

No Wave
Sep 18, 2005

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I wouldn't put "chill" and "worst" in the same sentence ever I think!

No Wave
Sep 18, 2005

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Its hard to play other classes after you've played the Watcher. (Lets be real cut through fate should be scry 1, card is broke.)

fast cars loose anus posted:

I like this game so far but I kind of dislike how nothing really persists between runs so that I can't start with some direction towards a deck type I like

I do enjoy silent, and when I did get a block deck going well with the warrior type it was kinda fun but it's weird how I've done 5 runs with the warrior and never even beaten the 2nd floor while I cruised through the tower my third time on Silent without ever really being in trouble
Starting the game is the roughest part because you spend such a high % of your runtime playing strikes and defends. That'll change as you get to the point of being able to consistently win on Asc0. If you're really bored try a daily or a draft run.

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No Wave
Sep 18, 2005

HA! HA! NICE! WHAT A TOOL!
Let's say you see 50 common card picks in a run (3 shops with ~3 common cards per shop, 18 hallway fights with 60% of those cards being commons, with some leeway for whatever I'm not thinking about). The odds of not seeing a specific watcher common card is 6.6%, or (18/19)^50, meaning that most runs will be "missing" at least one common. When it's a broken card like Cut Through Fate you'll notice, when it's bowling bash you won't.

Fifty picks might even be an overestimate. Seeing cards three times in one run and zero times in another run should not surprise you at all.

No Wave fucked around with this message at 21:54 on Jun 10, 2020

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