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Hey everyone, I have been reading some of the worst-of threads in this forum so I'm feeling like "hey, at least I'm better off than I could be! But things are gonna get complicated soon, and... well, I don't know what I'm doing. And I have a history of making bad decisions. So I'm coming to potentially the worst place on the internet to ask for help, because why not throw another one on the pile, you know? What I want: Financial independence. The ability to actually start working towards my dreams. Knowing I could switch careers and take half my pay or less and still be financially secure. Having money saved up for my kid's college would be nice although I sort of feel like the time he's old enough to attend college the whole system will be so hosed up it's impossible to plan for - but I'm sure a big pile of money will be nice to have to help him get started regardless of what else happens! At some point I'd actually like to have more kids and be able to have more kids - a normal number, you know, 6 or 7? But, obviously that's dependent on a lot of things that aren't finances so I'm content to mostly ignore that one of the time being... still, at least 2 more are hopefully in my future so let's consider that the "plan". Where I am right now: 32 years old, married (for the moment), 1 child (3 years old) I am bringing in $6,500 a month - that's after taxes and health insurance/FISA. Medical + Dental + FISA is about $250 a month. I'm not putting anything towards my 401k at the moment, but my job automatically does a 3% contribution (of base salary, so about $3k) so there's still some money going in I have $28,400 in the 401k from my previous job I have $??,??? in the 401k (will add this later, they changed their login details and I lost access to it) I've only got the one debt now that we have paid off the car (a honda civic) - and that's the $800/month I'm paying for student loans. That's thankfully not what I need to pay, I'm just trying to pay it down. Total Student Debt remaning: $21,600 (down from an all time high somewhere in the upper $70k range and at 5% interest) Asset-wise, it's basically just the car and household stuff like clothes, furniture, computers, toys, tools. We have $3,400 in the shared account and I have $500 more in my personal unspent. And by personal I mean: Me and my wife each put $250 per month into our "personal no questions asked" spending accounts which is dumped into various things the other person would never approve of spending the family's money on. The rest goes towards household costs, bill payments, medical expenses and the like. This was sort of a bleeding-staunching method to try and put a cap on our (and by "our" I mostly mean "her") out of control spending. My wife does not work. Judging by the logs I have been keeping, childcare-wise I would probably be considered the "Primary Caretaker" despite working full time, since we pay for daycare two days a week and I watch him the majority of the time when I'm home including feeding him, dressing him, putting him to bed, etc. and so on. And where it get's messy... In roughly two week's time, I'm going to be telling my spouse I want a divorce. That's going to be a... process, and there are a great many reasons it's happening, but the eventual divorce is going to happen as quickly as reasonable. I don't want it to financially ruin me - this is a chance to start over new in many ways. I am asking you guys for help, now, before I gently caress it up, because I've certainly hosed things up plenty in the past such that I'm lucky I make enough money to put us in the good shape we are in right now. I'm hoping for a relatively quick mediated divorce, but there is a significant potential for things to get ugly. If there's a chance of this ending without ugly litigation, I think it's basically a requirement that I give up any claim to any sort of "shared asset" - it can safely be assumed that anything that isn't exclusively mine (clothes, toys, computer) is going to be given up. I'll also probably need to keep all my student loan debt. Probably shouldn't have agreed to prioritize paying off her $30k car first because it had a much higher interest rate, but hindsight... I am fine with losing all of our meagre shared assets so long as I can eventually be in charge of my finances (no idea what is reasonable for alimony or how long it should last) and I get at least equal coparenting status in terms of the kid. It means avoiding expensive lawyer and court fees that will almost assuredly cost more than whatever I will get out of it. But beyond that, I am very much out of my depth, and worse, I don't really know who to ask for help, or who to trust - and so here I am. I'll provide additional information as requested to the best of my ability, in as timely a manner as I can. What the gently caress do I do to survive this divorce financially intact and then finally discharge all this debt while providing the groundwork of a stable, secure life for both me and my child? GlyphGryph fucked around with this message at 23:00 on Jan 22, 2018 |
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Jan 22, 2018 22:26
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What state do you live in? I don't see mention of a mortgage or a house, so I assume you are renting? How much is your rent per month? Does your wife have any skills or a degree? Why isn't she working? I think step one for you is to hire a really good divorce attorney. You're going to need their help. Step two will be figuring out custody. Where are your parents/in-laws and what is that dynamic like? Basically, if you're divorcing your stay at home wife, be prepared for a nasty battle. This isn't going to be cheap, and since you're the breadwinner, you will likely shoulder most of the costs. She's likely entitled to half of your 401ks so be prepared to liquidate those if needed. Dude you need a lawyer, and I would say you should be talking to one before you tell your wife so you know how to act if/when she completely freaks out.
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Jan 22, 2018 22:58
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Rent is $1800 a month and childcare is $600 a month. State is MassachusettsMourne posted:Does your wife have any skills or a degree? Why isn't she working? She has a college bachelor's degree in psychology, but her job experience is all clerical work since graduation. She was working until our child was born, where she became a stay-at-home mother. Mourne posted:I think step one for you is to hire a really good divorce attorney. You're going to need their help. quote:Step two will be figuring out custody. Where are your parents/in-laws and what is that dynamic like? quote:Basically, if you're divorcing your stay at home wife, be prepared for a nasty battle. quote:This isn't going to be cheap, and since you're the breadwinner, you will likely shoulder most of the costs. She's likely entitled to half of your 401ks so be prepared to liquidate those if needed. Dude you need a lawyer, and I would say you should be talking to one before you tell your wife so you know how to act if/when she completely freaks out. Will do. I don't expect much in the way of legal advice in the thread for obvious reasons (that's what the attorney is for!), but as things progress hopefully you guys can offer advice on how to actually handle whatever deal falls out at the end financially and help me get back on my feet. GlyphGryph fucked around with this message at 23:13 on Jan 22, 2018 |
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Jan 22, 2018 23:10
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GlyphGryph posted:
What field are you in? You make good money. Does your company offer legal services to their employees or have they partnered with anyone that they might be able to help you. I'm in Big Pharma myself and I know we have all kinds of resources available to us, including lawyers and whatnot. Can your company help you with finding a good lawyer that isn't going to gouge you too bad? GlyphGryph posted:
Its good your parents are nearby, you're going to need their help. GlyphGryph posted:
A quick google search looks like alimony exists in MA. Looks like the standard is 30% of your pay since your wife doesn't work. How long you pay alimony seems to depend on how long you've been married.
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Jan 22, 2018 23:29
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GlyphGryph posted:Her dad is loaded, not sure if that factors in - our debt would be much worse off if he hadn't cleared everything she owed before we got married. Be prepared for your wife to freak out and if she goes to town on lawyers with Daddy's money you may be in for a ride. Why are you so sure your wife isn't going to devolve into an utter banshee queen about this? And why are you OK with giving the woman you want to divorce more than she is entitled to under the law?
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Jan 22, 2018 23:51
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I am not sure she isnt. Going batshit is a very real possibility and one I am preparing for. And if it comes down to a fight then it comes down to a fight - but it seems like avoiding that would be everyone's best interests so I will be doing my best to avoid that outcome. I am willing to give her more both to help make a costly court fight where we both lose less likely, and also because why wouldnt I? I dont wish her ill, I hope she can go on to lead a happy and fulfilling life and am willing to do my part to allow that to happen for some reasonable period of time. Her going broke isnt going to benefit our son either. I hadnt considered the possibility of her father bankrolling an expensive legal battle, ugh. That doesnt seem likely based on what I know of their relationship, but it is definitely a possiblity I should try to prepare for. GlyphGryph fucked around with this message at 00:08 on Jan 23, 2018 |
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Jan 23, 2018 00:05
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If her dad can afford a better lawyer than you can, you're in deep trouble. You need to get to work right the hell now finding out with reasonable confidence who is the best divorce lawyer in your area and hiring them BEFORE you tell her the bad news. There's no point discussing any of this with us. You need to discuss it all with your lawyer. It will be painfully expensive, but not nearly as expensive as getting your rear end handed to you in divorce court will be. e: you're out of your mind if you don't think she's going to do everything she can to take your rear end to the cleaners in court, by the way. It is going to SUCK. She and her lawyer are going to make outlandish accusations about you being an awful husband and a worse father and you will shoot yourself in both feet, the gut and the head if you respond to that poo poo emotionally rather than strictly 100% through your lawyer. LAWYER UP dude. Eric the Mauve fucked around with this message at 00:18 on Jan 23, 2018 |
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Jan 23, 2018 00:10
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I will be contacting an attorney tonight. I do not think contacting the most expensive attorney I can find is within my budget here though. I have no idea what IS within my budget because i have no idea how divorce lawyers actually get paid I suppose I can come back here after the divorce is finalized and try this again? GlyphGryph fucked around with this message at 00:31 on Jan 23, 2018 |
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Jan 23, 2018 00:29
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GlyphGryph posted:I have no idea what IS within my budget because i have no idea how divorce lawyers actually get paid In cash. From your bank account. How much do you have in savings? I mean liquid cash in a checking/savings account. Preferably one that doesn't have your wife's name on it.
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Jan 23, 2018 00:47
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500 in a personal account and 3400 in account that also has her name on it. That is all of our non retirement savings.
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Jan 23, 2018 00:50
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GlyphGryph posted:500 in a personal account and 3400 in account that also has her name on it. That is all of our non retirement savings. Good grief, Charlie Brown  So worst case scenario -- you divorce this chick. You then owe her 2,000$ a month in alimony (assuming you get 50/50 joint custody and don't pay a dime in child support), need 1800$ for rent, another 500$ or so for childcare, 800$ on student loans. Leaves you 1300$ a month for car insurance, gas, groceries, utilities, baby medical bills, retirement savings (which will be wiped out by the divorce), and discretionary income. AND you want FI/RE and multiple more kids at the end of this? Any chance you're up for Director/EVP anytime soon? You're going to need to double your income. 100k/yr isn't gonna cut it. poo poo, bro -- you need a quarter million a year.
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Jan 23, 2018 01:02
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I wasnt suggesting a permanent 50k a year alimony, I suggested it is a possible starting point for a temporary thing to get her back on her feet as part of a mediation agreement - offering her more up front to reduce the risk of a legal battle where I would have to pay more into perpetuity. Also most of the other things you mentioned are not permanent fixed things. Obviously more kids is a long term goal, and even then only a potential one. What does FIRE stand for? So yeah the worst case scenario is probably not that bad. But its still pretty bad. This is why I would very much like to direct my efforts towards a mediated divorce that avoids anything approaching a worst case scenario. (worst case scenario is actually me backing out and deciding to not to go through with the divorce - better a bad situation where I have to compromise on many of my desires than one where every last one of my desires is undesireable) GlyphGryph fucked around with this message at 01:13 on Jan 23, 2018 |
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Jan 23, 2018 01:07
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GlyphGryph posted:I wasnt suggesting a permanent 50k a year alimony, I suggested it is a possible starting point for a temporary thing to get her back on her feet as part of a mediation agreement - offering her more up front to reduce the risk of a legal battle where I would have to pay more into perpetuity. FIRE = Financial independence; retired early. Good luck. Let us know what your lawyer says.
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Jan 23, 2018 01:11
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I have no desire or intent to retire early, sorry if I was unclear about that. I will let you guys know how the lawyer chat goes I guess, unless he tells me not to.
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Jan 23, 2018 01:13
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GlyphGryph posted:I have no desire or intent to retire early, sorry if I was unclear about that. How long have you been married?
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Jan 23, 2018 01:15
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About six years
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Jan 23, 2018 01:18
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GlyphGryph posted:I wasnt suggesting a permanent 50k a year alimony, I suggested it is a possible starting point for a temporary thing to get her back on her feet as part of a mediation agreement - offering her more up front to reduce the risk of a legal battle where I would have to pay more into perpetuity. Not going to happen, man. Even in the unlikely event she is amenable to such a thing when you have The Conversation with her, the next day she's going to talk to a lawyer and the lawyer is going to say "LOL no, we're going to nail him for alimony AND child support and he's going to give you 60% of his income for the next 15 years." Whether the lawyer can successfully follow through on that will remain to be seen, but it's possible. You're in trouble, the rest of your pre-old-age life is on the line and you'd better act like it. There's drat near nothing I wouldn't do to scrounge up money to pay for a GOOD lawyer here. And your lawyer is 100% going to tell you never to post about your divorce anywhere on the internet again. Every word you post is a discoverable record that can potentially be used against you in court. Your lawyer's going to cringe when you tell them you posted this thread in the first place. Good luck dude 
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Jan 23, 2018 02:03
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Eric the Mauve posted:Not going to happen, man. Even in the unlikely event she is amenable to such a thing when you have The Conversation with her, the next day she's going to talk to a lawyer and the lawyer is going to say "LOL no, we're going to nail him for alimony AND child support and he's going to give you 60% of his income for the next 15 years." Whether the lawyer can successfully follow through on that will remain to be seen, but it's possible. You're in trouble, the rest of your pre-old-age life is on the line and you'd better act like it. There's drat near nothing I wouldn't do to scrounge up money to pay for a GOOD lawyer here. Eric lacks my patience and diplomacy, but his advice is the advice you should follow. Please find every red cent you can to hire the best attorney possible. You are going to need it. PM the mods, beg for clemency and ask them to close the thread. Good luck dude
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Jan 23, 2018 02:12
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Nah, leave it open, we'll throw one more mistake on the pile, and when this is over, however long this takes, I'll be back and post some more about post divorce stuff.
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Jan 23, 2018 02:22
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GlyphGryph posted:Nah, leave it open, we'll throw one more mistake on the pile, and when this is over, however long this takes, I'll be back and post some more about post divorce stuff. Then why don't you go ahead and tell us why you are divorcing your wife and mother of your child?
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Jan 23, 2018 02:27
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Mourne posted:Then why don't you go ahead and tell us why you are divorcing your wife and mother of your child? Accepting the damage here has been done is a different thing from digging myself deeper, so based on the advice you just offered I am, uh... not gonna do that. Revealing additional information seems like a mistake at this point until, as has been suggested, I speak with an attorney. And then probably not until the divorce is actually finalized. Advice on how to find a good attorney, since you're emphasizing the importance of acquiring one, beyond asking my employer for references (which I will do) would still be appreciated though, especially in light of how little I have in savings. "Picking at random off justia.com" is the best I can figure at the moment and that seems like it will be insufficient. I guess I should call like a dozen of them, get info on rates and retainers and... some sort of other information? And then desperately try to find one I can afford, which is probably none of them? Mourne posted:Please find every red cent you can to hire the best attorney possible. You are going to need it. Should I cash out my 401k, then? GlyphGryph fucked around with this message at 02:49 on Jan 23, 2018 |
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Jan 23, 2018 02:29
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GlyphGryph posted:Should I cash out my 401k, then? Absolutely yes. Guess who's going to get half or more of it anyway?
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Jan 23, 2018 02:56
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Just gonna throw this in here hoping this doesn't get E/N: Is divorce the only option? Is your marriage in any way salvageable? I guarantee you that marriage counseling is going to cheaper than whatever shitfuck tunnel you're headed down.
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Jan 23, 2018 04:47
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Higgy posted:Is divorce the only option? Is your marriage in any way salvageable? Yes, and no. Other avenues were already pursued and failed, unfortunately.
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Jan 23, 2018 05:00
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this is like, wildly out of scope based on posts so far but i got one question which is where in the gently caress is all your money going each month? I add up: 1,800 rent 800 student loan 600 child care 500 discretionary for you and her assumptions: 200 in cell phones assuming you're an idiot 400 in other utilities (l m a o) 800 in groceries (wildly, unbelievably generous) 350 in monthly car expenses (insurance, gas, excise, money for repairs etc) I'm assuming insane, profligate expenses for the assumptions and I'm still coming up with a thousand dollar monthly black hole
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Jan 23, 2018 15:18
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I don't know, the point of this thread is more about helping my build a plan for the future and figure out how to work towards my goals (or what I can of them) financially post-divorce... so this sort of question is honestly more on point. Edit: Actually I'm not sure what harm that could have done, but I've removed it due to the repeated "don't post any more info" advisories. Do you guys really think it would be harmful to post about "worst case scenario plans"? Assuming I lose all assets and start at square one, and I end up paying the legal maximum... that's 35% of my income to alimony for 4 years and paying for full time childcare somehow I imagine. It still seems like something I could build a plan around. And one would think that have a solid post-separation financial plan could only help in court? GlyphGryph fucked around with this message at 17:26 on Jan 23, 2018 |
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Jan 23, 2018 16:16
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ok well step one figure out where the gently caress the money is going right meow
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Jan 23, 2018 19:25
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Pretty likely that (at least in OP's opinion) his wife is making the money disappear and it's a prominent reason he wants a divorce, but he probably isn't going to say so in this thread, especially if he's done the only sensible thing and hired a lawyer by now
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Jan 23, 2018 19:36
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Mourne posted:Does your company offer legal services to their employees or have they partnered with anyone that they might be able to help you. I'm in Big Pharma myself and I know we have all kinds of resources available to us, including lawyers and whatnot. Can your company help you with finding a good lawyer that isn't going to gouge you too bad? I want to say: Thank you so much for this, this was exceptionally helpful advice. They have a lot of resources on this front I did not know about and never would have thought to ask, and it makes me exceptionally glad I posted this thread here, even if the advice I got wasn't the sort I was looking for it was very very useful.
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Jan 23, 2018 23:00
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GlyphGryph posted:I want to say: Thank you so much for this, this was exceptionally helpful advice. They have a lot of resources on this front I did not know about and never would have thought to ask, and it makes me exceptionally glad I posted this thread here, even if the advice I got wasn't the sort I was looking for it was very very useful. You're welcome  Good luck Goon sir!
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Jan 24, 2018 02:33
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Eric the Mauve posted:Pretty likely that (at least in OP's opinion) his wife is making the money disappear and it's a prominent reason he wants a divorce, but he probably isn't going to say so in this thread, especially if he's done the only sensible thing and hired a lawyer by now Yeah, I feel like this from the OP: quote:This was sort of a bleeding-staunching method to try and put a cap on our (and by "our" I mostly mean "her") out of control spending. makes it pretty clear why a divorce is happening and/or necessary without needing to go into the details. OP, your biggest priority should be getting a divorce lawyer. Your second-biggest priority should be not getting hosed over by her divorce lawyer. The rest of it is so dependent on the results of the divorce that I honestly can't see how you'd get a reasonable estimate of your necessary expenses. I mean, what's a worst-case scenario, anyways? You lose all your assets, you're 20k more in the hole (because you got half of the credit-card debt in the divorce and your wife has secret credit cards, and also lawyer fees) on top of your student debt, you're paying the max alimony indefinitely, and you're paying the maximum amount of child support and only get weekend visits so you need to maintain a room for your kid to sleep in? And you lose your housing (it goes to the wife) and now you have to rent a new place? There's so many outlandish worst-case possibilities that someone without more knowledge of the details has no way of guessing what a realistic one would be for you. If anything, practice your self-control and monitor your discretionary spending for a while and try to get a measure of how much you spend on eating out and other unnecessary expenses? Try to keep aware of when you get the impulse to purchase something and keep track of how often that is/how much you'd normally spend?
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Jan 24, 2018 06:01
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Why pay for daycare 2 days a week if the wife doesn't work?
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Jan 25, 2018 02:35
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remigious posted:Why pay for daycare 2 days a week if the wife doesn't work? Probably when she watches her stories.
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Jan 25, 2018 08:00
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You realize you can talk to the lawyer about how you can pay them their retainer given your situation. Most lawyers will look at your income and see that you are good for it over time. Maybe you can convince your wife to get a job, put the kid in daycare 5 days a week, and have her show some income for 3-4 months, then file.
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Jan 25, 2018 16:33
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No Butt Stuff posted:Maybe you can convince your wife to get a job, put the kid in daycare 5 days a week, and have her show some income for 3-4 months, then file. Maybe he can convince her to take absolutely nothing in the divorce and also be legally obligated to give him beejers every day
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Jan 26, 2018 22:03
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Okay, so this whole process is officially underway. It might be a couple of months until its done and everything is worked, but we have a timetable but we both seem committed to avoiding court and negotiating something fair to both of us, either through mediation or a collaborative process - we'll be deciding on that soon, but I think collaborative is more likely. So it's nice that this isn't seeming like it will be a super contentious burn-the-bridges sort of situation. Right now the financial plan is to liquidate $12-14k of the retirement fund to pay for retainers, paperwork, and getting us into new accommodations. I guess we'll see later what will happen to the rest. I've been looking for apartments in the area - it looks like $1500 a month is about what I can expect. It's gonna feel weird to from from renting a big house for $1.8k a month and moving into a tiny place to save only $300 but we're both gonna need that extra $300 no matter how the finances work out in the end I'm sure. I'll almost certainly be keeping all the student loans personally. Not really looking for any more advice yet, just providing the thread with an update for anyone who cares. Colin Mockery posted:If anything, practice your self-control and monitor your discretionary spending for a while and try to get a measure of how much you spend on eating out and other unnecessary expenses? Try to keep aware of when you get the impulse to purchase something and keep track of how often that is/how much you'd normally spend? I've been trying my best to follow this advice, although I've done so... imperfectly. Food is definitely an emotional coping mechanism for me. I've avoided spending money on any of the other things I'd normally be inclined to spend it on though, and I've only spent $30 in the last two months so I'm up to $720 in the personal account. GlyphGryph fucked around with this message at 20:17 on Feb 5, 2018 |
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Feb 5, 2018 20:14
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So, current financial plan and status, myself and wife are working together to figure this out, so yeah... time for some advice: Need to decide whether to liquidate all $35k in retirement savings or just half of it? It would be nice to have some retirement savings, but having a safety buffer for both of us post-separation, enough to handle a new car, new apartments, new lives might be good. And if it lasts, I can use it to pay off my loan - and to be honest, even though the interest on my loan is low, I don't think they are lower than the interest on retirement savings on average. But, of course, I'd have to pay taxes on that so... yeah. Need to get a car for myself. It's been years since I've bought a car. She'll be keeping the current one, and I'll be getting some cash value equivalents worth of *something* (probably actual cash/retirement savings) to get one of my own. Need to find an apartment... my experience in the past with apartments hasn't been great, hopefully this time will go better without breaking the bank. Are there other things we should be thinking about that we aren't?
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Feb 6, 2018 05:21
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GlyphGryph posted:So, current financial plan and status, myself and wife are working together to figure this out, so yeah... time for some advice:
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Feb 6, 2018 05:36
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Thanks for the update OP and glad it's relatively good news so far. Just make sure you stay alert and protect yourself as best you can (she can talk to a lawyer and abruptly change her mind at any time) and if you need good advice on buying a car there's a thread in this very forum for the purpose.
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Feb 6, 2018 15:24
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GlyphGryph posted:Need to decide whether to liquidate all $35k in retirement savings or just half of it? It would be nice to have some retirement savings, but having a safety buffer for both of us post-separation, enough to handle a new car, new apartments, new lives might be good. And if it lasts, I can use it to pay off my loan - and to be honest, even though the interest on my loan is low, I don't think they are lower than the interest on retirement savings on average. This is your student loan, right? Without knowing your specific situation, your expected 401k return rate is most likely higher than your student loan rate, and that's even before the tax on it. You might not have to pay the early withdrawal penalty if it's withdrawn as part of a QDRO but i'm not a divorce expert, just a guy on the internet that likes to shriek "don't touch your 401k" because it's the right advice a lot. I understand the desire to start fresh and it sounds like you make a decent amount of money but a bunch of it is going to be gone soon. $35k isn't bad for a 401k at your age but having to restart from $0 with a significantly reduced income is going to be a real drag if your goal is retirement at any point. That said, if that's what's necessary for getting the  process off the ground here, you gotta do what you gotta do. But since you're asking, it sounds like it's an option and i'd say keep something to build on if possible. Just my two cents
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Feb 6, 2018 16:01
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