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I'm on break so just popping in to ask: Does it make sense that town would have two roleblockers? We have Princes flash of light and Tobbs dueling (which admittedly isn't a "true" roleblock, but still produces the same result)
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Feb 7, 2018 23:25
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GulagDolls posted:maybe i shouldnt be telling you these things. Obviously. Good point sorry. But there is allegedly a 3rd role with no flavor and I find that weird especially because as far as I remember nobody had brought it up
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Feb 7, 2018 23:43
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I'm putting my ultimate faith in my partner. MMT has been with me, if this fails well Grats scum team ##vote Gulag
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Feb 8, 2018 01:37
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Monathin posted:You're both dumb as a fencepost There is no reason to get personal. We are playing a game.
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Feb 8, 2018 01:43
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I'm sorry
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Feb 8, 2018 03:32
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Wow. MMT hats off to you. I feel so bad right now. I'm so sorry Mona and Gulag :-(
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Feb 8, 2018 03:34
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Monathin posted:I tried. Sal literally wouldn't listen. Monathin posted:in a game with Sal and Rex at the same time I had a problem telling who was playing foolish and who was the actual factual biggest idiot on the planet. 50 pounds of bread posted:Rofl, gulag and monathin, you guys were great way to try. Monathin posted:This is mean and I'm sorry. 50 pounds of bread posted:I don't think sal was being dumb as much as naive. 50 pounds of bread posted:R.I.P Sal's innocence. For people that can see Mason chat MMT and I really had a good time getting to know each other and thats why I was reluctant to believe that she was scum. I spent a lot of the last half waffling between Gulag and Monas arguments. So much of what you said is totally true and I apologize profusely for not believing you. Mona you told me multiple times and honestly if it wasn't for the masonry I probably would've voted MMT. I'm really speechless right now and just a heads up I need a day to decompress.
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Feb 8, 2018 03:42
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Wow MMT with that redirect ability you couldn't have been paired with a better person. I never considered the fact that you might have a ability to use on nights when you didn't hide.
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Feb 8, 2018 03:48
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This is probably going to be a long post so here we go: Let me preface this by saying while I am currently really hurt and upset by everything thats happened, I'm not upset at MMT or anyone else. MMT played a hell of a game and she should be applauded for how well she did. I'm going to be posting mostly stuff from our masonry. One other thing I feel thats worth mentioning is in Shine V my Shine ability was a heal that put me in a masonry, I never got to use it either so I was really eager to be in one. Day 1 - (1/25/18) As most people know I've played Mafia for a fairly short amount of time. I started with a WWE Mafia that started in September and Ended in October. Since then I've played in the Death Note Mafia, Minifauxens Mafia, Avatar Mafia, DBZ, and then Shine V (and finally this game). I've only ever played town so a lot of scum tactics are still pretty alien to me. I spent almost the entire month of January playing with MMT in Shine V and I was genuinely excited to be in a masonry with her. I had cased her hard in Shine and I admired her so I thought this was be a great time. I viewed the Masonry as my learning tool. I have always thought that having access to the scumdoc and being able to bounce ideas off of scum bros would be invaluable to becoming a better player. To her credit MMT warned me pretty early on: MurmurTwin: But yeah, as a general rule you should leave yourself open to the idea that I might be scum (hopefully we're both town and our alignments will be clear to each other down the road?) After this we shared some small talk and banter about our lives and got to know each other on a surface level. (1/26/18) I had just been turned down for a promotion at work and I was feeling pretty low. I was asking her about D1 voting (I genuinely refrain from jokephase voting) and I got this response: MurmurTwin: Don't worry about pissing other people off, it's mafia!  Haha man you're making me giggle, once again I'm filtering what you just asked me through the filter of "if Sal was scum, wouldn't he ask his scumteam that?" which makes me think either you're town being genuine or you're scum running an insanely clever play on me But yeah - generally speaking it's better to  than to hold back. Like remember how many incorrect cases I had in Shine? Ultimately it didn't matter that I was wrong because people could analyse my wrong cases and other peoples' reactions to them, which is long-term usefulMMT (who was town) did have incorrect cases so this was a great subtle move on her part of pointing out "Hey I'm not the greatest player ever" so this was another reason I was so quick to trust. My response was to express my frustration with how Shine had gone: Gage26: I'm seriously worried about getting Bif'd this game, but I've never played in a mafia game where I've had access to a masonary. In Shine my heal was a Masonary and that was honestly the reason I wanted to get into combat so bad. My plan was to use my Shine heal in prelim, get in a masonary with TMM, Kash or KB and use that to help bounce some thoughts off of. Gage26: But of course I never got into a battle until the end so then my loving masonary never mattered! We then proceeded to discuss Shine quite a lot. MMT also again tried to put my mind at ease: MurmurTwin: (full disclosure: right now my gut says you're town, if you're scum trying to talk me into trusting you, bravo!) At this point the Bif / Quid stuff went into full swing. (1/27/18) I was happy she liked my joke on Bif: MurmurTwin: tobbs "very convenient for quid to claim" sal: "two games in a row!" After this we started to discuss the game more. In hindsight it's hilarious because all of her people are town: MurmurTwin: so right now I'm leaning scum on Monathin, and honestly after that my suspicions are on the people who aren't really talking about game stuff: Chic, TM, 50 all off the top of my head. I then throw out that I typically find extending Jokephase to be scummy because it allows for low content posting to continue and can make casing people harder, I then thank her for the help and say that this will be really helpful going forward: MurmurTwin: Aww this is fun! Yeah it's interesting, I think it's really hard to case people until you've been scum at least once - I don't think I really appreciated the difference until my firm scum game (which came after like 10 town games in a row). This was also the first day that I realized I was being overly self cautious to the point I posted: Gage26: I'm normally not this self conscious but I think having a direct and private line to someone else is making me overthink things way more than I should. I"m not saying this is bad or you are bad, I just think I'm second guessing myself more than i normally would. (1/28/18) MMT at this point drops the bomb that she suspects everyone is in a masonry. While doing some flavor research I came across Riders master being Sakura (or Shinji). For some reason I thought this might be a good question to ask her to try to gauge her reaction. MurmurTwin: That is my name! :cherries: How'd you know? This is another :masterstroke: by MMT MurmurTwin: Yeah if anything, I think that flavor chat is an easy thing for scum to talk about (since they can tell the truth about the mythos instead of lying about who they think is scum) Gulag - if I might here, this is really where I lost any trust for you: GulagDolls posted:god drat it sal switch your vote back Anytime I wanted to believe you I kept coming back to this post. I don't even know why this post resonated with me so much but it really changed how I viewed you throughout this entire game. Night 1 Action - Track MMT (Day 2) (1/29/18) TM flipped town, but I wasn't that worried because it's D1 and miscuddles happen. This is where I really hosed up though. My N1 action was to track MMT, I figured that this would be the best way to determine is she was scumbro or townbuddy. My result was as follows: Success! You follow Murmur Twin. They do not go anywhere. Not really knowing how things worked I felt pretty comfortable with her at that point: Gage26: But I'm bummed because it didn't reveal anything. Im a tracker. I tracked you just because I thought it might confirm one way or the other. I'm surprised I didn't see who you dueled. Gage26: (This might be TMI) MurmurTwin: Haha I mean - fwiw you probably shouldn't have claimed that unless you're sure that I'm town, but I'm town, so no harm no foul. Keep that close to the chest though - we don't want you to get killed for it before you get results! I'm a hider - every other night, I can vanish and not be targetted by anything. Apparently whatever put me in the duel (I have no idea what it was) trumped that, since it resolved instead of my hiding? We discussed the game more and this is where I initially pitched my "Prince is scum" case. When I asked for her read she obviously agreed with me that it was possible he was scum, but the best way was just to case him and see how he reacts. At this point Tubs Gnawed mentions that he was the one that "role blocked" MMT night 1. I also got excited when people seemed to get onboard with Prince kill (although, and I haven't checked, I would imagine it was the scum team). (1/30/18) I felt like I was floundering with my casing of Prince and then MMT came in and posted: MurmurTwin: I just got to the part where prince responded to your case and voted you. So far that case is my favorite mafia post I've seen you make :evergreen_tree: Like I remember in Shine I was suss on you because you said I was scum but had like 0 reasons why you thought that, seeing you case your strongest suspect is cool imo MurmurTwin: "After Shine V was over I took a lot of the feedback I got to heart. The main feedback I got was "post more" and "don't be afraid to make cases." I'm implementing that this game, admittedly not as well as I had hoped. I also planned to take a break after the last game but I'm a loving addict who can't say no!" haha I've been playing for four years and I still try and analyze prior games to improve down the road, v nice Also at this point Tobbs called out Rex for a scum slip and MMT, but MMT re-read Rex and came to this conclusion: MurmurTwin: honestly everything else about rex looks town to me but I want to see how he reacts to some pressure :evergreen_tree: like I can think of ways that what he said make sense but I feel like it's better to judge his reaction to it At this point the votes swung against Juchero who said that if he hit -2 that he would full claim, I asked if she wanted me to vote for Juchero to get him to full claim: MurmurTwin: Do you think he's scum? Haha i don't want to be in a position where I'm just telling you what to do, I want to make you feel comfortable throwing your opinion out there and speaking your mind. Have faith in your reads :evergreen_tree: :smiley: MurmurTwin: people are saying that I look scummy for my vote on Rex and I want so badly to quote me from in here saying "honestly everything else about rex looks town to me but I want to see how he reacts to some pressure :evergreen_tree: like I can think of ways that what he said make sense but I feel like it's better to judge his reaction to it" but i feel like there's no point in outing our masonry and really the only reason to say anything is out of a desire to be right that I'm trying to suppress lol (1/31/18) This is where I say probably the most correct thing in this entire game: Gage26: Does it concern you at all that the thread is so quiet? I feel like if we were targeting scum, scum players would be trying to throw off the scent. The fact the thread is so quiet makes me wonder if we are targeting a townie Because SURPRISE we were getting ready to ice another townie! At this point I asked MMT if her and I should "bus" each other in the thread at all to try to keep the fact we were working together a secret, and she responded: MurmurTwin: Nah I think it's bad for town to lie as a general rule. Like if it ever gets to the point where we claim, then we risk other town not believing us, y'know? At this point we engaged in some more general conversation. We both had a mutual love of poker and we talked a bit about poker. I also made a mistake here of telling her who I planned on Tracking (Prince) which set forth their N2 plan b-minus1: @Gage26 your n2 action was to track prince. mmt redirected you to me, and I killed bif. The idea was to make you believe that prince killed bif. But you were roleblocked AND AA saw me visit bif. We didn't anticipate either of those things happening However a really poorly time roleblock blew that the gently caress up, but honestly that just made me more suspect on Prince which, while not the way they wanted it to happen just cemented in my mind that Prince was scum. This was also the first time that I got suspect of MMT Night 2 Action - Track Prince of Space Day 3 (2/1/18) This was the night the forum crashed and we engaged in some general small talk about the forums being down and how excited we were to see the flip. In the evening I was really disappointed to see that I got roleblocked and I posted this: Gage26: Look I'm just going to be straight. One of 3 things happened last night: 1) You are scum and so is Prince, you knew I was tracking Prince so you told scumbros who roleblocked me 2) You are town and Prince has some innate ability to roleblock automatically 3) I got randomly targetted by scum team I feel like #1 is the most likely case :frowning: I really hope you aren't scum. I know that we can't flavor solve either but Sakura is evil (apparently) in the series. (2/2/18) I woke up to see this message: MurmurTwin: Oh man dude I just woke up but I swear I have no idea how you were roleblocked! I’m heading to work. Honestly I don’t blame you for thinking I’m scum, I pretty sure I would too :wilted_rose: Hopefully I can help find the scums and we can figure this out In the thread I posted more or less that same thing which lead to MMT outing our Masonry (which was fine). This was also that day that the vote moved to B- pretty fast and MMT is the one that lead me to vote for B- (earning her a poo poo ton of town cred with me) She also tried to get me off of Prince since I was really fixated on him (Sorry Prince) MurmurTwin: what about him seems scummy? i gotta be honest, he seems town to me 50 is the one i still think is full of it A successful cuddle of a very scum B- and much jubilation Night 3 - Tracked 50 (as MMT was pushing a case on him) (2/3/18) There was a lot of jubilation at this point! We had cuddled our first scum! We both had some light game conversation at this point and went to sleep (2/4/18) This was an interesting day. It started with GD trying to lead a turbo against MMT and one of my pet peeves is when people attempt to turbo. I was also growing increasingly irritated with 50's roleplay. While I applaud it, it was so frustrating at the time because it lead to nothing useful. This was also when MMT started to sell me on the idea of 50 being a strongman/ninja and the reason my tracking results didn't come up with anything was because of that. Being still (relatively) new to the game it actually sounded very plausible. This was also when I started to grow increasingly suss of Gulag Dolls. Gulag this was another post you made that made it hard for me to trust you down the pipe: GulagDolls posted:frankly the idea of you being able to track multiple times while the rest of us are stuck with pure garbage is offensive enough I genuinely couldn't understand why the idea that someone could track nightly was a big deal. Also I'm a sensitive person, GD you might not be which is fine, but I felt like a lot of posting was coming from a very aggressive place (which I now understand in hindsight) but at the time I couldn't bring myself to believe because I thought you were just being a tremendous dickhead. For example this is the day where I really felt like you were putting a lot of pressure on Rex to vig either MMT or Prince. I was feeling uncomfortable at the amount of pressure you were putting on Rex (a fairly new player). I was bullied in High School (I'm 36 so it was 20 years ago, but I am really sensitive towards stuff like that), so I all I could think about was how much of a bully you felt like. I get that you were frustrated town now, and honestly reading your posts in a vacuum you were pretty tightly attuned to what was going on in the game. I was also growing increasingly frustrated with Princes endless flavor discussion (especially since he said from the outset that he wasn't familiar with the flavor.) With MMT's encouragement I began to view the endless flavor discussion as a scum tactic to keep posting while preventing casing. This was also the point where I put my faith fully in MMT: MurmurTwin: yeah - i just posted this in thread but how the gently caress could town possibly have that many active abilities? hahaha god if you're scum I'm mailing you a :trophy: after the game Gage26: I swear on my marriage that I'm town. MurmurTwin: lol I got called out (rightfully so) by my boyfriend earlier for ignoring something he was saying because I was ensconced in this game I likewise swear on my boyfriend that I am town! (Also to anyone that thinks this was weird, I wanted to give her proof that I was 100% town and there was no way I was scum. MMT had her boyfriends permission to swear on him while lying to me. I do not hold any ill will against this.) At this point I was fully on board with MMT no matter where it went. I didn't think there was anyway that she was scum after that. After this we also had a really personal discussion that I'm not going to bother copy and pasting. We also discussed a mutual love for the TV show Survivor. MMT in the future if you are in this situation, please do not engage in such a personal level of discussion because gently caress this was the thing I was most upset about. Given that we both had sworn oaths to each other I was prepared to go through hell to win with her. At this point Rex used his day vig on Prince. MMT reinforced my belief here: MurmurTwin: nice - once prince flips i feel like the game should be easy, I'm gonna be shocked if he's town (2/5/18) I further made this promise to her: Gage26: It's understandable. Here is the deal MMT regardless I will never vote you. I don't care if it forces a no lynch I wanted to prove to MMT that I was fully on board with her as the game whittled down. Here was another excellent post by MMT that really influenced my decision to cuddle 50: MurmurTwin: I see it as a useful tactic for him to not worry about contradicting himself (although that's more in theory since he's lied multiple times) This was also another time I didn't trust her enough to reveal my track target: Gage26: Who should I track tonight? I'm thinking Gulag, but thinking I should do AA just because it's the unexpected route (2/6/18) Gage26: I'm tracking Gulag Gage26: I think I'm getting NKed tonight' I also tracked AA who ended up visiting Gulag (Day 5) (2/6/18) MMT encouraged me to really put some pressure on Gulag and Mona about their night actions. I had honestly started to believe in my head that Gulag was some sort of PGO, but I wasn't sure if that was typically a scum or town role. I also had this crisis: Gage26: MMT I'm having a real crisis here. I know you aren't online to see this but you will be tomorrow. I've really enjoyed being in here with you but more and more I get this creeping sense of dread that I'm being "Bif'd". Mona and Gulag are either really good at persuading me or they are right. I don't want to vote you out, I really don't. Right now my plan is to vote Gulag, but we are more than likely in LYLO so a mislynch of town here is pretty much game over. (2/7/18) Mona and Gulag this was the closest that I came to voting MMT. Honestly had I not gone to sleep when I got home Tuesday night I think Mona would've been able to convince me. This is another day that really fucks with me because every single mother loving sign was pointing to MMT being scum. Like largely I couldn't justify my decision outside of "MMT and I swore on our significant others. We had very personal conversations. This person couldn't be lying to me." Also at this point Gulags aggressive posting began to really turn me off too. Mona if you hadn't been as "attached at the hip" to Gulag, or even pushed a Rex cuddle I would've been way more on board with that. I really hope that Monas post in the discord chat gets looked at: Monathin: I have an unpopular opinion about this game but I'm not going to share it Monathin: and it's less about the game and more about the methods used Monathin: now that it has happened Exactly Twice Monathin: i would like less games where there is an issue of irl gaslighting Monathin: thanks for coming to my ted talk Monathin: i'm okay with how it went down here and in shine Monathin: but i would very much like to see it Not Be A Trend Monathin: unconfirmed mason/advisor chats allow a level of buddy-buddying both in and out of game that can be used by scum to push agendas and it gets a little too close to like Monathin: Actual Abuse Tactics tbqh Monathin: mafia's a thick-skinned game but that kind of rapport-building can be extremely hosed up as a long-term thing that happens in games Monathin: i don't mind it as a thing that occasionally happens but if scum tactics allow for more betrayal strats like that i think games and other stuff will suffer for it Monathin: and i mean yeah that's fair bif, it's also why I want to like Monathin: call it out basically? Monathin: It's one thing to be slinging bullshit in the thread Monathin: it's another to be doing that sort of poo poo over discord chats Monathin: tbh i think it's the part where it transcends into out of thread communicado that i think it can get kinda Monathin: hosed Monathin: for lack of a better word Reading the scumdoc I realized that the longer the game went on the more MMT was really beginning to feel a lot of guilt. I honestly felt bad for her because I can't imagine what that must have been like, I know Nat20 said Shine really wore on him too. I realized now looking back on it that I just hosed up in general. This isn't on MMT because she clearly told me on the outset to be suspicious. I put it on myself because no matter what I'm the one that ultimately couldn't vote for her. MMT I've appreciated the 6 weeks we've spent together through Shine and this game. I genuinely hope you get that job in Colorado. I'm very loving heart broken right now, but much like not getting my job I'm only going to allow it to hurt for 5 seconds, then I'm going to suck it up and go on with my life. This game was very educational for me, but ultimately wasn't very fun, also I in no way think what MMT did was gaslighting or abusive, but I do fully agree that this level of communication with another person can lead to hosed things happening. This game was really fun, I really enjoyed it, but man I wish I could tell Sal from weeks ago to say gently caress it and take the break that I wanted after Shine was over.
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Feb 8, 2018 07:32
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Bifauxnen posted:oh hey, one thing I do think deserves mentioning - Sal, you (and anyone else reading) should try and avoid stuff like "I swear on X that I'm town" in the future. If it's a fair play for you to make as town, then it has to be fair for scum to lie about it too to avoid a town instawin. I think it's better to avoid this kind of "argument" entirely in Mafia cause it doesn't really prove anything to begin with. It just makes things more personally uncomfortable for anyone who actually puts any stock into vows like that meaning anything. And I realize in hindsight that it wasn't fair for me to say that. To be perfectly fair I want even expecting it back. She is 100% right when she told me that she probably could've avoided it and I wouldn't have caught on (truth). But ultimately that was the thing I latched onto (even though as a Survivor fan I know these pledges are meaningless.)
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Feb 8, 2018 22:20
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MMT and I have chatted privately and I do feel better overall. It's still a lot to take in but there isn't any malice or anything like that. Reading scum chat has done a tremendous amount to help and doing a breakdown of my own game as well. Once again thank you all for the outpouring of support.
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Feb 8, 2018 22:30
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Natural 20 posted:I maintain though, holy poo poo was it great to watch. I think it must have been amazing to watch MMT and Rex just doing work.
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Feb 9, 2018 04:54
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GulagDolls posted:i think the only time something got under my skin was the quid/bif fight because i witnessed something similiar in ff6 and it was just like, god drat why is this happening again. It's fine. I understand completely (I swear a lot which can come off as hostile.) Again I tend to trend sensitive (to a fault) so I'm sure that was just me interpreting things. Also that last game day I was having a real crisis between my head (##Vote MMT) and my heart (##Vote Gulag) so that wasn't doing me any favors either.
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Feb 10, 2018 07:26
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