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Dudley
Feb 24, 2003

Tasty



harperdc posted:

I'm vacillating between telling you to "keep going at full speed" and to relax and enjoy it at a leisurely pace, but if you're still in season 1, you've got some gems coming. Level 5 Special, Bill Riley, Tommy Kendall to name a few.

Or as I've gone for, skip around like an idiot, because I couldn't resist listening to Sarah Fisher.

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Humbug
Dec 3, 2006
Bogus

Good news rally fans

https://www.motorsport-news.co.uk/n...return-by-2020/

Although I suspect it will be a normal stage rally set in Kenya rather than the overland rally of old. Another snow rally in Canada sounds cool too.

Rally Sweden starts tomorrow btw.

Jehde
Apr 20, 2010



Humbug posted:

Good news rally fans

https://www.motorsport-news.co.uk/n...return-by-2020/

Although I suspect it will be a normal stage rally set in Kenya rather than the overland rally of old. Another snow rally in Canada sounds cool too.

Rally Sweden starts tomorrow btw.

iospace
Apr 20, 2020




Grimey Drawer

Incoming crosspost:
https://twitter.com/Team_Penske/sta...514731749924864

njsykora
Jan 23, 2012

Robots confuse squirrels.

Where are the Supercars lads.

WindyMan
Mar 21, 2002

Respect the power of the wind

njsykora posted:

Where are the Supercars lads.

https://twitter.com/Team_Penske/sta...537893380415488

MazeOfTzeentch
May 2, 2009

since we're talking
about primaries


https://www.ebay.com/itm/Mercedes-A...ar/323080143835

The "Daddy's Money Can't Buy Skill, But It Can Buy A Car That I Think Has Better BoP" special.

Wirth1000
May 12, 2010

One of these is good.



MazeOfTzeentch posted:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Mercedes-A...ar/323080143835

The "Daddy's Money Can't Buy Skill, But It Can Buy A Car That I Think Has Better BoP" special.

This seems like an absolute steal for $100k?

Cygni
Nov 12, 2005

raring to post



Wirth1000 posted:

This seems like an absolute steal for $100k?

Reserve not met. You can buy a new one from the factory for like $400k I guess.

Wirth1000
May 12, 2010

One of these is good.



Oh, whew, that makes way more sense. Didn't notice the reserve.

track day bro!
Feb 17, 2005

Failpeepee Assa



Grimey Drawer

Here's a stupid question that I couldn't get a concrete answer after searching around, but what is the difference between a GTE car and a GT3 car.

Aside from GT3's aren't meant to be factory teams, their specs seem pretty simmilar and I remember on MWM a while back they were saying it wouldn't take much to convert the GT3 McLaren into a GTE car. Also GT3's have more driver aides for gentlemen drivers?

MazeOfTzeentch
May 2, 2009

since we're talking
about primaries


Generally, similar amounts of power, GTE cars have more room in the regs for aero (huge diffusers), engine position, no ABS on GTE. I think GTE cars can be wider too.

Cygni
Nov 12, 2005

raring to post



GTE are essentially full purpose built racecars from the ground up. They are prototypes that look like streetcars. Any parts they share with their road equivalent are likely for marketing. Less performance balancing, more manufacturer involvement, very high cost (~2-3x higher than LMP2 in WEC or Proto in IMSA). Mostly the realm of works teams and a few very rich privateers.

GT3 is more performance balancing, less manufacturer involvement, more reasonable costs. So while there are cars that are purebred racecars in the class, they will be performance balanced back to everyone else anyway so there is little incentive to make pieces of the car out of unobtainum or beat the chassis into the ground in testing. Mostly the realm of privateers, with varying degrees of manufacturer support.

drgitlin
Jul 25, 2003


GTE works like this. The ACO (and more recently the FIA) wrote the technical regulations: https://www.fia.com/fia-wec-2018-te...omologated-2016

If you are a manufacturer, you read those technical regs and adapt one of your road car products to meet the spec. Then you get your car homologated to make sure it meets those specs, and you race it.* Cars that are built to the current year’s specs have to be run by factory teams (in WEC). Year-old spec cars can be run by pro-am teams.

GT3 works differently. AFAIK there’s no technical regulation as such, and you’re allowed things like traction control and ABS because the idea is to sell cars to private teams. All GT3 cars performance balanced against each other - there will be a reference lap time that SRO or the FIA wants cars to stick to, and if yours is too fast you get pegged back and if it’s too slow you can make it go faster until it’s within the range. There’s no real incentive to come up with anything particularly clever engineering-wise compared to GTE.

Some GTE and GT3 cars are very similar - the Ferrari 488 race car for example is pretty easily changed from one spec to the other. There’s some info here: https://arstechnica.com/cars/2017/0...8-gt3-race-car/


*Actually there’s still balance of performance in GTE, which complicates things.

MazeOfTzeentch
May 2, 2009

since we're talking
about primaries


BMW also had the M6 GTLM which was built to GTE spec but never homologated by the ACO, only IMSA, based on the M6 GT3. They've since replaced that with a fully ACO homologated car, the M8 GTE (which promptly got BoPfucked by IMSA)

MazeOfTzeentch
May 2, 2009

since we're talking
about primaries


Double post for more info: GTE is also a more limited class, as far as allowed specifications. It is more of a build-to-a-spec setup, with engine displacement limits, must be 2 doors with 2 or 2+2 seats in the production model. GT3 is more open, still production based, but more build-to-a-performance standard and then balanced, instead of build-to-a-spec (minus waivers).

The Viper GT3 is allowed to have it's 8L V10 by default, and it's balanced into the performance window. The Viper GT2/GTE had to have a waiver (all other makers agree to let it race outside of regulations) to have an engine larger than 5.5L N/A.

The Ford GT LM GTE famously was allowed to race on a waiver in 2016, because no street examples had been constructed at the time. The BMW M8 is also on a similar waiver, as there's no 8-series out there in the wild yet.

BMW also asked for a waiver to lower the roofline on the M8 GTE to reduce drag and it was denied by at least one competing maker, causing a lengthy late-stage redesign, setting the program back quite a bit.

Jehde
Apr 20, 2010



https://twitter.com/OttTanak/status/964479225943216128

Humbug
Dec 3, 2006
Bogus

The frontrunners being salty about road position was great. I laughed at Tanak telling the organizers to go screw themselves. That's rally buddy.

Ogier deliberately being late to the start to get power stage point was pretty funny too. Stoked for Breen though. If he had only won every full time driver in the field would have had a win.

The championship looks like it could be tasty this year. Neuville Tanak and Ogier all look capable of taking it, with Latvalla and Mikkelsen getting in the mix here and there. Bring on Mexico and the return of the dark overlord (Loeb)

harperdc
Jul 24, 2007





drgitlin posted:

There’s no real incentive to come up with anything particularly clever engineering-wise compared to GTE.

Well, except for things like the Mercedes AMG-GT3s getting a qualifying ECU mode at the Spa 24hrs a couple years ago...leading to all of the pro Mercs getting penalties after qualifying. (GT3 is apparently strict about ECU software homologation, which makes perfect sense in many ways).

Schlesische
Jul 4, 2012




harperdc posted:

Well, except for things like the Mercedes AMG-GT3s getting a qualifying ECU mode at the Spa 24hrs a couple years ago...leading to all of the pro Mercs getting penalties after qualifying. (GT3 is apparently strict about ECU software homologation, which makes perfect sense in many ways).

Worth noting: This was their first outing with a massive update for the Merc GT3 at Spa and they sandbagged like crazy to avoid getting BoP'd to oblivion.
(I think it was that Spa 24 and not the VLN 24 ?a year later?)

track day bro!
Feb 17, 2005

Failpeepee Assa



Grimey Drawer

So the GTE's need to be based off a roadcar, but the GT3's don't? But they usually are based of a roadcars bodyshell?

I remember when the Bentley GT3 first arrived everyone was going on about how it was pretty much a protoype in drag. But then people say the same thing about the Ford GT, which I guess the road version is flirting closely with being a racecar.

harperdc
Jul 24, 2007





track day bro! posted:

So the GTE's need to be based off a roadcar, but the GT3's don't? But they usually are based of a roadcars bodyshell?

I remember when the Bentley GT3 first arrived everyone was going on about how it was pretty much a protoype in drag. But then people say the same thing about the Ford GT, which I guess the road version is flirting closely with being a racecar.

GTEs are more directly based on a homologation model - while there are some aero differences allowed, for example, you can't stick a different engine in, and Porsche really should have a 'mid-engined' 911 you can buy for the street. While those differences are more accepted for GT3 spec -- the Mercedes AMG GT3 has the engine also developed for the SLS GT3, and not a new engine developed from the street model -- the GTE is more supposed to be based off the street car.

This is why the Ford GT was such a big change -- similar to how the Porsche 911 GT1 was in 1996.

[edit] Short version: GTE has to be homologated from a street model, GT3 does not, but is based off it with some latitude for changes. GT3 is then tuned and balanced so that, in theory, every car can run approximately the same lap times, and from there all of that make's GT3 cars are homologated to that spec.

And when the Bentley debuted, they didn't think it was a prototype, but instead an ocean liner. It's a much bigger car than what's normally raced, but it works and makes the lap times, so

Schlesische posted:

Worth noting: This was their first outing with a massive update for the Merc GT3 at Spa and they sandbagged like crazy to avoid getting BoP'd to oblivion.
(I think it was that Spa 24 and not the VLN 24 ?a year later?)

Yes but the six cars that made the "shootout" finale of qualifying got their times erased, went to the back of the "shootout" top 20, had five-minute stop-and-holds and it was because their engine timing didn't match homologation of the GT3 model. This wasn't an update thing, it was

Autosport.com posted:

The five-mintue stop-go penalties have been awarded for unsporting behaviour resulting from "presenting a car with a technical non-conformity of which the competitor should have been aware".

...

It follows a dramatic improvement from the official Spa test day earlier this month by Mercedes: Gotz's pole lap was 1.6 seconds up on the best time set by an AMG GT3 at the test.
.

kinda cheat-y.

harperdc fucked around with this message at Feb 21, 2018 around 12:59

tuo
Jun 17, 2016

He doesn't know when he's beaten, this boy, he doesn't know when he's winning either. He doesn't have any sort of sensory apparatus.



MazeOfTzeentch posted:

BMW also had the M6 GTLM which was built to GTE spec but never homologated by the ACO, only IMSA, based on the M6 GT3. They've since replaced that with a fully ACO homologated car, the M8 GTE (which promptly got BoPfucked by IMSA)

Note that BMW replaced the 6series/M6 with a completely different car (what used to be the 5series GT), and moved the "super expensive coupé based on a sedan" from the 5series (M6) to the 7series (M8). That's another reason why the M8 GTE is not a direct successor to the M6 GTLM/GT3. It has to do a lot with marketing...no sense in running the M6 (as a works team) any longer if there is no road equivalent for people to buy, thus the move to the M8 (which shares quite a lot of DNA with the M6 GT3).

Schlesische
Jul 4, 2012




harperdc posted:

Yes but the six cars that made the "shootout" finale of qualifying got their times erased, went to the back of the "shootout" top 20, had five-minute stop-and-holds and it was because their engine timing didn't match homologation of the GT3 model. This wasn't an update thing, it was
.

kinda cheat-y.

Yeah, I remember watching a... ?Chris Harris? thing on that race where he mentioned the grid was surprised that the Mercs were midway through the pack during practice and that surprised everyone because they were expecting more. Then quali turned around and they locked out 1-6.

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harperdc
Jul 24, 2007





tuo posted:

Note that BMW replaced the 6series/M6 with a completely different car (what used to be the 5series GT), and moved the "super expensive coupé based on a sedan" from the 5series (M6) to the 7series (M8). That's another reason why the M8 GTE is not a direct successor to the M6 GTLM/GT3. It has to do a lot with marketing...no sense in running the M6 (as a works team) any longer if there is no road equivalent for people to buy, thus the move to the M8 (which shares quite a lot of DNA with the M6 GT3).

of course it's good that another big brand came into the big brands racing real cars class, especially a big manufacturer with history and prestige. but the M6 and M8 are both much bigger cars than the competition (911, Vantage, Ferrari). Helps that the M8 was designed as a GTE first and not a GT3 that BMW wrestled IMSA into allowing in the series (which they'd done for going on five years beforehand with the M6 and Z4 before it), and that there will be a real M8 coming soon too. But those M6 GT3s will still be out there for a while, as due to the nature of the GT3 homologation there's less year-to-year turnover than in something like GTE.

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