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CharlestheHammer
Jun 26, 2011



iospace posted:

Even with all the people involved with the coverup fired at this point (I believe at this point that is the case, but feel free to correct me if I'm wrong here)?

The followup I have now: would you allow the program to be restarted immediately with fresh personnel, or would you require it to be restarted down the line, because the problem here is if you don't require a restart date, they're going to use that to axe the program wholesale and never bring it back.

Restarted down the line is fine, also allow the students involved to transfer out if need be. If they use it as an excuse to axe the program thatís fine. They donít have any particular need to have the program exist and itís ultimately their choice.

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iospace
Apr 20, 2020




Fun Shoe

CharlestheHammer posted:

Restarted down the line is fine, also allow the students involved to transfer out if need be. If they use it as an excuse to axe the program thatís fine. They donít have any particular need to have the program exist and itís ultimately their choice.

And this is where I'm going to agree to disagree. I don't agree with axing it wholesale, but if the death penalty were to be handed it down, I would want it to be maybe a year moratorium and then restarted (any longer and you're looking at Title IX suits). The year "off" would be used to find new staff. Obviously free transfer with the scholarship transferring (in effect, MSU would pay for them to go elsewhere), and those who decide to stay do not lose any years of eligibility.

Again, I'm not sold on the death penalty, in that I feel it's too extreme, but I'm going to concede that you are, and whatever each other says here is not going to convince the other.

jit bull transpile
Jan 6, 2012

f $o(^PUPFRIENDS(friend)) q:friend="" d
. d snuggle^PUPROUTINES(^PUPFRIENDS(friend))

Gary’s Answer

iospace posted:

And this is where I'm going to agree to disagree. I don't agree with axing it wholesale, but if the death penalty were to be handed it down, I would want it to be maybe a year moratorium and then restarted (any longer and you're looking at Title IX suits). The year "off" would be used to find new staff. Obviously free transfer with the scholarship transferring (in effect, MSU would pay for them to go elsewhere), and those who decide to stay do not lose any years of eligibility.

Again, I'm not sold on the death penalty, in that I feel it's too extreme, but I'm going to concede that you are, and whatever each other says here is not going to convince the other.

I can't help but feel like you've been moving the goalposts quite a bit, but let respond like this:

if you restart a program after only a year, how do you ensure that the wider university culture that has allowed the bad program to fester has been addressed? Many of the people at the edges (deans, athletic dept chairs outside of the specific sport, campus police, etc) are still going to be there. I believe this would lead to a "wait it out" attitude where the university has no need to actually seriously examine itself and correct its culture before rebuilding a program.

i would rather that a program restoration post-death-penalty have a clearly defined set of steps that the university must complete to regain approval. a non-comprehensive list of things I can think of that might be a good start are:
  • Mandatory interviews with all personnel (in any department, even outside the sports programs) by a neutral third party to identify individuals who should receive either training or be fired.
  • Mandatory overhauls around school policies for reporting and investigation of sexual assault, discipline of faculty and students found to have perpetrated sexual assault.
  • Expansion of campus surprise sex crisis and counseling services.
  • Heavily expanded background checks for personal who will have contact with students outside of a classroom.

There's probably more stuff you could think of easily. Honestly my posts itt to this point have been pretty flippant because I thought it would just be self-evident to people that a program that systematically enables the assembly line-like surprise sex of its students needs to be pulled up by the roots but I guess I have a bad habit of assuming people fill in the blanks the same way I do.

I don't think a university should be banned from doing a sport for 10,000 years or whatever. But I do think that they should have to prove they've made an ironclad best effort to make it a "never ever again" situation. If a school is a repeat offender after going through this process though? Burn that poo poo down for real.

iwentdoodie
Apr 29, 2005

YOU'RE WELCOME



Honestly it should be all sports cancelled, and the entire department overhauled.

Cancelling a sport like gymnastics would hurt a small number of people and really not do much to the school as far as change. But shut down all of them, and have that be the threat on the table if you ignore poo poo? Change might actually happen.

iospace
Apr 20, 2020




Fun Shoe

You guys do realize that the death penalty is the last option the NCAA will use, right? It's not meant to be the first line.

e: off of phone now:

jit bull transpile posted:

I can't help but feel like you've been moving the goalposts quite a bit, but let respond like this:

I'm curious as to how I've been moving the goalposts (it annoys me when others do this, and I would like to avoid doing it myself). The first argument was over whether or not the NCAA has the purview to act on things like this. It doesn't. I agree it should, but I also understand that they weren't going to do poo poo in the first place.

The second argument was over the assumption that if the NCAA did have the ability to act, what would that punishment be? I feel the death penalty is too harsh on the program after Nassar and his enablers have been fired. At this point you're putting the burden of the punishment on what victims remain at MSU over the actual enablers.

I think they should be show-caused (lifetime) and the MSU program put on probation. If it happens again, then we can start talking death penalty. The death penalty is, as said above, meant to be the absolute last resort.

quote:

if you restart a program after only a year, how do you ensure that the wider university culture that has allowed the bad program to fester has been addressed? Many of the people at the edges (deans, athletic dept chairs outside of the specific sport, campus police, etc) are still going to be there. I believe this would lead to a "wait it out" attitude where the university has no need to actually seriously examine itself and correct its culture before rebuilding a program.

i would rather that a program restoration post-death-penalty have a clearly defined set of steps that the university must complete to regain approval. a non-comprehensive list of things I can think of that might be a good start are:
  • Mandatory interviews with all personnel (in any department, even outside the sports programs) by a neutral third party to identify individuals who should receive either training or be fired.
  • Mandatory overhauls around school policies for reporting and investigation of sexual assault, discipline of faculty and students found to have perpetrated sexual assault.
  • Expansion of campus surprise sex crisis and counseling services.
  • Heavily expanded background checks for personal who will have contact with students outside of a classroom.

There's probably more stuff you could think of easily. Honestly my posts itt to this point have been pretty flippant because I thought it would just be self-evident to people that a program that systematically enables the assembly line-like surprise sex of its students needs to be pulled up by the roots but I guess I have a bad habit of assuming people fill in the blanks the same way I do.

I don't think a university should be banned from doing a sport for 10,000 years or whatever. But I do think that they should have to prove they've made an ironclad best effort to make it a "never ever again" situation. If a school is a repeat offender after going through this process though? Burn that poo poo down for real.

I agree with the last point here, 100%, for what it's worth. Though I don't think whoever is at the helm of MSU at this point is interested in it, because he's a royal dickbag. He needs to go, but the board is doing nothing about it. I agree the whole program needs to be redone, and they largely have, same with US Gymnastics (at least from my observations). Correct me if they didn't severely overhaul the personnel in those orgs.

The bullet points however, are good, and should be required as part any punishment regardless if the death penalty was applied or not. Hell, that should be done regardless of any punishment.

The root problem is here is that by and large, most universities, regardless of where it happens or who does it, views sexual assault (and DV, for what it's worth) as a joke. Requiring the NCAA to try to fix that isn't going to work, in my opinion. This a problem that is both inside and outside of sports, and unless actual, real punishment starts happening to those universities for even outside sports cases, nothing is going to change, and lawmakers have shown no intention of changing it. I know this is going to be read as "well, nothing will change, might as well sit by and let it happen". That's not my intention. My intention is that unless we do something, nothing's going to change.

Ok that was likely goalpost shifting right there, sorry.

iospace fucked around with this message at Sep 1, 2018 around 13:23

Henchman of Santa
Aug 21, 2010


Doesnít the NCAA actually give the death penalty all the time to like, D3 tennis programs? They will never do it to a revenue program again after it permanently hosed SMU.

exploded mummy
Sep 10, 2008

Anytime I need to see your face I just close my eyes
And I am taken to a place
Where your crystal minds and magenta feelings
Take up shelter in the base of my spine
Sweet like a chica cherry cola

-Cheap Trick


Doctor Rope

Henchman of Santa posted:

Doesnít the NCAA actually give the death penalty all the time to like, D3 tennis programs? They will never do it to a revenue program again after it permanently hosed SMU.

does twice in thirty years count as "all the time"?

because they've given it out twice in thirty years since SMU

General Dog
Apr 26, 2008



I only believe in the death penalty for individuals, personally

Vagabundo
Mar 20, 2007

Any of you Welsh sheepfuckers got a custom text?


jit bull transpile posted:

I can't help but feel like you've been moving the goalposts quite a bit, but let respond like this:

if you restart a program after only a year, how do you ensure that the wider university culture that has allowed the bad program to fester has been addressed? Many of the people at the edges (deans, athletic dept chairs outside of the specific sport, campus police, etc) are still going to be there. I believe this would lead to a "wait it out" attitude where the university has no need to actually seriously examine itself and correct its culture before rebuilding a program.

i would rather that a program restoration post-death-penalty have a clearly defined set of steps that the university must complete to regain approval. a non-comprehensive list of things I can think of that might be a good start are:
  • Mandatory interviews with all personnel (in any department, even outside the sports programs) by a neutral third party to identify individuals who should receive either training or be fired.
  • Mandatory overhauls around school policies for reporting and investigation of sexual assault, discipline of faculty and students found to have perpetrated sexual assault.
  • Expansion of campus surprise sex crisis and counseling services.
  • Heavily expanded background checks for personal who will have contact with students outside of a classroom.

There's probably more stuff you could think of easily. Honestly my posts itt to this point have been pretty flippant because I thought it would just be self-evident to people that a program that systematically enables the assembly line-like surprise sex of its students needs to be pulled up by the roots but I guess I have a bad habit of assuming people fill in the blanks the same way I do.

I don't think a university should be banned from doing a sport for 10,000 years or whatever. But I do think that they should have to prove they've made an ironclad best effort to make it a "never ever again" situation. If a school is a repeat offender after going through this process though? Burn that poo poo down for real.

I'd add
  • Mandatory probationary period of X years (depending on severity of the offence), in which the athletics department is closely monitored by an appropriate body.
  • A third party of the student's choice to be present at all contact with department staff in one-on-one sessions (so in a situation like one where monsters like Nasser or Sandusky took advantage of kids, there would be a neutral third party there to observe and report).

Bootcha
Nov 13, 2012

Truly, the pinnacle of goaltending


Grimey Drawer

The thing is we're not talking about an isolated part of a niche sport administration that colluded in this horror, it was large chunks of not just the athletic department but of the college institution itself.

And I'll agree that punishment should not be doled out by the NCAA alone, but holy gently caress when the institution itself goes out of its way to cover poo poo up, that should be grounds for a "you cannot participate in the NCAA" death penalty.

General Dog
Apr 26, 2008



Bootcha posted:

The thing is we're not talking about an isolated part of a niche sport administration that colluded in this horror, it was large chunks of not just the athletic department but of the college institution itself.

And I'll agree that punishment should not be doled out by the NCAA alone, but holy gently caress when the institution itself goes out of its way to cover poo poo up, that should be grounds for a "you cannot participate in the NCAA" death penalty.

Under that logic, should this apply for scandals that don't have anything to do with sports or the athletic department at all? (Not saying you'd be wrong)

Vagabundo
Mar 20, 2007

Any of you Welsh sheepfuckers got a custom text?


General Dog posted:

Under that logic, should this apply for scandals that don't have anything to do with sports or the athletic department at all? (Not saying you'd be wrong)

No, your argument here doesn't actually make sense. He's saying the institution itself covering up sexual assault of varying flavours of horrific in the athletics department should be a "gently caress off out of the NCAA."

Unless you can establish a clear link between the athletics programme and, hypothetically, the department of hypothetics juking exam scores to raise their pass-rate with tacit or even outright involvement from the institution itself, why would the NCAA be involved? That'll end up being an entirely different kettle of fish.

Bootcha
Nov 13, 2012

Truly, the pinnacle of goaltending


Grimey Drawer

General Dog posted:

Under that logic, should this apply for scandals that don't have anything to do with sports or the athletic department at all? (Not saying you'd be wrong)

Well, a solid and very visible line would be a good place to start from. I'd say:

  • 1) Any violation involving the jeopardy of the health (sexual, physical, mental, etc), finance (cash payments, scholarship, etc), and/or well-being (civil liberties, discrimination, etc) of a student athlete
  • 2) Any violation involving collusion within the team, staff, AD, the institution, and/or multiple institutions that affect or have effected student athletes in the manners listed in (1).
  • 3) Any violation involving the jeopardy of the health, finance, and/or well-being of non-athlete students by student athletes and/or AD staff in the manners listed in (1).
  • 4) Any violation involving the collusion within the team, staff AD, the institution, and/or multiple institutions that affect or have effected the NCAA recognized sport they participate in.

As for something the institution does that doesn't involve sports at all? We're talking about further unimaginable horrors that would cause a full blown peace out like "Duke campus legalizes surprise sex" or "Harvard found to be actively sheltering Nazi war criminals out of spite".

Bootcha fucked around with this message at Sep 9, 2018 around 06:15

Neodoomium
Jun 20, 2001

You are now hearing this
noise in your head.



I'm not sure what the appropriate governing body is here, but it's pretty clear at this point that the Athletic Department as a whole and the University completely failed to provide a safe environment for their students and children in their care.

The Athletic Department has seen no punishment and John Engler is there specifically to limit the punishment Michigan State gets. The university agreed to a 500 million dollar settlement but that cost is almost assured to come out of tuition or fee increases from the students they're supposed to protect. If the NCAA is not the appropriate body to take action when an athletic department has no oversight and allows a house of horrors to operate as a "missing stair," who is?

And this is a couple of pages ago, but members of the track and field teams were among the victims in addition to the gymnasts and softball players. I would bet there were a large number of students from every sport MSU offers referred to Nassar for treatment.

elentar
Aug 26, 2002

Congratulations! Your bonsai is dead!

Grimey Drawer

So it got worse again
https://twitter.com/reporterdavidj/...556738368909314

Drunk Canuck
Jan 9, 2010

Robots ruin all the fun of a good adventure.


Hey let's talk about how the death penalty isn't worth pursuing some more!


Personally, burn MSU to the ground.

Crazy Ted
Jul 29, 2003



So what isn't covered in the Tweet: the surprise sex was videotaped, the coach who reported it was ordered to resign, and the victim was stripped of her scholarship

Hockles
Dec 25, 2007

Resident of Camp Blood
Crystal Lake



quote:

The police told them that since she was an athlete, she had to report it to the athletic department," her attorneys wrote in the lawsuit. "The detective explicitly told them that he was powerless to investigate anything that takes place to the athletic department and to go to the athletic department.

Jesus Christ.

AsInHowe
Jan 11, 2007

Goal, assist, fight.

Crazy Ted posted:

So what isn't covered in the Tweet: the surprise sex was videotaped, the coach who reported it was ordered to resign, and the victim was stripped of her scholarship



What also isn't covered is that this happened so long ago technologically, Nassar had to grab a friend to be the cameraman for the assault.

Hockles
Dec 25, 2007

Resident of Camp Blood
Crystal Lake



There's always more, and it's always worse.

mdemone
Mar 14, 2001

There is no route out of the maze. The maze shifts as you move through it, because it is alive.


AsInHowe posted:

What also isn't covered is that this happened so long ago technologically, Nassar had to grab a friend to be the cameraman for the assault.

I'm trying to figure out how to post a thousand-yard stare.

Nissin Cup Nudist
Sep 3, 2011

Sleep with one eye open

We're off to Gritty Gritty land






AsInHowe posted:

What also isn't covered is that this happened so long ago technologically, Nassar had to grab a friend to be the cameraman for the assault.

Could Nassar have set up the camera on a tripod or something?

Vagabundo
Mar 20, 2007

Any of you Welsh sheepfuckers got a custom text?


AsInHowe posted:

What also isn't covered is that this happened so long ago technologically, Nassar had to grab a friend to be the cameraman for the assault.

It's like the world's worst game of one-ups-man-ship.

jit bull transpile
Jan 6, 2012

f $o(^PUPFRIENDS(friend)) q:friend="" d
. d snuggle^PUPROUTINES(^PUPFRIENDS(friend))

Gary’s Answer

AsInHowe posted:

What also isn't covered is that this happened so long ago technologically, Nassar had to grab a friend to be the cameraman for the assault.

OK let's just end humanity

AsInHowe
Jan 11, 2007

Goal, assist, fight.

Nissin Cup Nudist posted:

Could Nassar have set up the camera on a tripod or something?

Spoilering the non-specific terrible parts.

quote:

"He asked her a variety of questions including, but not limited to, whether her father was around, whether she had ever done gymnastics, and whether she had ever had a vaginal exam," Davis' attorneys wrote, adding that Nassar also said he was doing a flexibility study through the the university.

Then, with another man in the room with a video camera, Nassar asked if Davis had ever had a breast examination, which she had not, according to the lawsuit.

"Defendant Nassar then told her that she had prepubescent breasts, but that he thought he could get the nipples hard," Davis' attorneys wrote. "He then used his hands and then his mouth to do so. During this time, the cameraman was filming Defendant Nassarís sexual abuse of Plaintiff Erika. Defendant Nassar then asked the cameraman to step outside for a discussion."

Nope, there was a second guy there to film it, who, if not already, should be in jail too.

Bootcha
Nov 13, 2012

Truly, the pinnacle of goaltending


Grimey Drawer

At what point do we consider this isn't a MSU problem so much as a NCAA problem?

Seriously, I'm all for a MSU death penalty, but something about this just screams the NCAA denying federal involvement just for the sake of the NCAA mechanics remaining in place without oversight, oversight being what the NCAA is supposed to do in the loving first place.

At what point do we shift from "Burn MSU to the ground" to "Burn the NCAA to the ground"?

mastershakeman
Oct 28, 2008

This neckbearded nerd has incredibly stupid opinions on fantasy firearms.

"Remember, Mastershakeman is literally always wrong."




Why not both

Henchman of Santa
Aug 21, 2010


Bootcha posted:

At what point do we consider this isn't a MSU problem so much as a NCAA problem?

Seriously, I'm all for a MSU death penalty, but something about this just screams the NCAA denying federal involvement just for the sake of the NCAA mechanics remaining in place without oversight, oversight being what the NCAA is supposed to do in the loving first place.

At what point do we shift from "Burn MSU to the ground" to "Burn the NCAA to the ground"?

To circle back to a point made in the early stages of the D&D version of this thread, itís more like a problem with powerful institutions in general

exploded mummy
Sep 10, 2008

Anytime I need to see your face I just close my eyes
And I am taken to a place
Where your crystal minds and magenta feelings
Take up shelter in the base of my spine
Sweet like a chica cherry cola

-Cheap Trick


Doctor Rope

Bootcha posted:

At what point do we consider this isn't a MSU problem so much as a NCAA problem?

Seriously, I'm all for a MSU death penalty, but something about this just screams the NCAA denying federal involvement just for the sake of the NCAA mechanics remaining in place without oversight, oversight being what the NCAA is supposed to do in the loving first place.

At what point do we shift from "Burn MSU to the ground" to "Burn the NCAA to the ground"?

The NCAA really hasn't denied federal involvement in this case unless I missed something.

Generally it's been the actions of MSU or their athletic department (which is independent of the NCAA)

Lockback
Sep 2, 2006

All days are nights to see till I see thee; and nights bright days when dreams do show me thee.


The FBI and local law enforcement hosed up the investigation, not the NCAA

quote:

ďIn particular, investigators are interested in the Indianapolis FBI officeís 2015 dealings with the gymnasts, a person familiar with the matter said. Around September 2015, an agent in the field office spoke with former Olympian McKayla Maroney over the phoneórather than in personóto discuss her allegations of abuse by Nassar. That conversation didnít lead to an investigation.Ē

quote:

Local law enforcement in Michigan has had its share of failures in the Nassar case so itís not like theyíve been perfect, either. First, there was the 2004 Meridian Township investigation that started with a complaint from Brianne Randall (now Randall-Gay) and ended with Nassar showing the detectives a Power Point presentation claiming he had performed a legitimate treatment without bothering to consult an expert that wasnít the accused.

swickles
Aug 21, 2006

I guess that I don't need that though
Now you're just some QB that I used to know


I know this seems like a completely unrelated topic, but a good lawyer could successfully argue that the NCAA does not represent the best interests of student athletes, and that a union is necessary to ensure the safety and health of student athletes.

jit bull transpile
Jan 6, 2012

f $o(^PUPFRIENDS(friend)) q:friend="" d
. d snuggle^PUPROUTINES(^PUPFRIENDS(friend))

Gary’s Answer

Henchman of Santa posted:

To circle back to a point made in the early stages of the D&D version of this thread, itís more like a problem with powerful institutions in general

agree but the inevitable refrain in response has been "well what's your 100 point plan to fix all powerful institutions everywhere ms. know-it-all"

it's more than just MSU (as has been noted), since law enforcement from top to bottom views reporters of sexual assault with a great deal of suspicion (nearly the opposite of how they deal with all other types of crime). there's a lot that needs fixing and frankly at this point I'm tempted to say something like "just make a separate civilian run police for for investigating sex crimes" because I don't know how the gently caress you fix the police or FBI.

Neodoomium
Jun 20, 2001

You are now hearing this
noise in your head.



Meanwhile, the Attorney General in this state is using congressional testimony where his opponent is detailing her own sexual assault in political attack ads as he runs for Governor.

There's a laundry list of people who deserve no less than a medieval set of stocks and pillory for their actions and deliberate inaction.

AsInHowe
Jan 11, 2007

Goal, assist, fight.

jit bull transpile posted:

agree but the inevitable refrain in response has been "well what's your 100 point plan to fix all powerful institutions everywhere ms. know-it-all"

it's more than just MSU (as has been noted), since law enforcement from top to bottom views reporters of sexual assault with a great deal of suspicion (nearly the opposite of how they deal with all other types of crime). there's a lot that needs fixing and frankly at this point I'm tempted to say something like "just make a separate civilian run police for for investigating sex crimes" because I don't know how the gently caress you fix the police or FBI.

Alternatively, don't let universities run their own police departments designed around protecting the school from embarrassment.

elentar
Aug 26, 2002

Congratulations! Your bonsai is dead!

Grimey Drawer

AsInHowe posted:

Alternatively, don't let universities run their own police departments designed around protecting the school from embarrassment.

Yeah, almost any university you could cite, public and private alike, are overwhelmingly more concerned with legal liability than with the wellbeing of their students, and that imperative is enforced by the top trustees all the way down to the bottom bike cops.

jit bull transpile
Jan 6, 2012

f $o(^PUPFRIENDS(friend)) q:friend="" d
. d snuggle^PUPROUTINES(^PUPFRIENDS(friend))

Gary’s Answer

AsInHowe posted:

Alternatively, don't let universities run their own police departments designed around protecting the school from embarrassment.

Agree. I meant like an actual elected group to investigate all sex crimes in a city or state, not just universities. Police not taking allegations seriously is a way more universal issue than just colleges.

Konstantin
Jun 20, 2005
And the Lord said, "Look, they are one people, and they have all one language; and this is only the beginning of what they will do; nothing that they propose to do will now be impossible for them.

Also, universities are required to publish statistics about crimes committed on campus, and prospective students consider those numbers when deciding where to enroll. I'm sure university administrators would never do anything unethical to make sure their numbers look good.

exploded mummy
Sep 10, 2008

Anytime I need to see your face I just close my eyes
And I am taken to a place
Where your crystal minds and magenta feelings
Take up shelter in the base of my spine
Sweet like a chica cherry cola

-Cheap Trick


Doctor Rope

AsInHowe posted:

Alternatively, don't let universities run their own police departments designed around protecting the school from embarrassment.

really there needs to be an overhaul and expansion on how mandatory reporting works of sexual buse and child abuse across the united states and further empowerment of title ix

Nissin Cup Nudist
Sep 3, 2011

Sleep with one eye open

We're off to Gritty Gritty land






Konstantin posted:

Also, universities are required to publish statistics about crimes committed on campus, and prospective students consider those numbers when deciding where to enroll. I'm sure university administrators would never do anything unethical to make sure their numbers look good.

Its also worth noting the Cleary Act is a complete joke and the largest pre-PSU violation was a 500K fine

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General Dog
Apr 26, 2008



Bootcha posted:

At what point do we consider this isn't a MSU problem so much as a NCAA problem?

Seriously, I'm all for a MSU death penalty, but something about this just screams the NCAA denying federal involvement just for the sake of the NCAA mechanics remaining in place without oversight, oversight being what the NCAA is supposed to do in the loving first place.

At what point do we shift from "Burn MSU to the ground" to "Burn the NCAA to the ground"?

What are you talking about? The NCAA seems to be fulfilling its duty in this matter, which is to stay the gently caress out of the way.

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