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rare Magic card l00k
Jan 3, 2011

Me uni a la Revolucion #RXT


el sabe ...


sportsgenius86 posted:

yea so go after the people who actually contributed to that and not all endowed funds, some of which pay for research and other stuff in departments completely unrelated to Nassar. The university needs to pay for sure but it does nobody any good to poo poo all over unrelated parties because top leadership did them wrong.


Oh no, what will MSU do if they have to spend their victim-stalking fund on research?

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General Dog
Apr 26, 2008



axeil posted:

Isn't "lack of institutional control" the justification the NCAA uses to death penalty a program?

I mean they won't do it because they have major financial incentives not to. This scandal is absolutely horrifying.

I mean, what do they death penalty? Just the girl's gymnastics team? Hell, the guy just arrested wasn't an employee of the athletic department at all. As far as I know, the NCAA has never death penaltied an entire athletic department; I don't know if they even have an apparatus to do so. I guess there's something on the books for outright expulsion from the NCAA, but that's so far outside the realm of possibility it's not really even worth wasting brain waves on.

DJExile
Jun 27, 2007

If loving you is binturong, I don't want to binturight.

Yeah Death penalty-ing the gymnastics program is just going to remove a non-revenue program from their rolls.

swickles
Aug 21, 2006

I guess that I don't need that though
Now you're just some QB that I used to know


The only effect a death penalty on gymnastics would have is a modest bump in womens basketball and softball teams funding.

jit bull transpile
Jan 6, 2012



Gary’s Answer

Honestly, I don't care if the actual teams are in the ncaa or not. The important thing is that anybody who was in a position of leadership during the time this was ongoing should be fired and never allowed to work at a college or with youth ever again. Burn out the culture of secrecy wholesale and start over.

Girls doing gymnastics isn't the problem. Evil old fucks using gymnastics to surprise sex girls is.

elentar
Aug 26, 2002

Congratulations! Your bonsai is dead!

Grimey Drawer

University endowments aren't just a bank account that can be used on whatever, they're a big bundle of smaller investments, most of which have conditions on how they can be spent, sometimes for particular scholarships, or for building drives, or for athletics, etc. Ideally the university draws a little bit off of the interest each year (almost always around 4-5%, unless the economy is just in a shrieking freefall), trying to keep the overall endowment growing slowly while meeting all the funding stipulations. (Increasingly they use that little bit as collateral for loans, or as debt service on those loans, which is bullshit and a big part of why tuition has exploded, but anyway...)

Endowments are a huge chunk of college rating systems because in theory they represent the long-term stability of the university. And a big hit to the endowment would represent a real and lasting harm to MSU. But you can't just clear out the coffers and give it all to the victims, most of that stuff is earmarked for completely different areas (including low-income scholarships, research etc.) and the funders would just withdraw their gifts. You could conceivably redirect any gifts earmarked for athletics, but I dunno how that would stand up legally if the donors tried to challenge it. You could also try selling off some university stuff, but since it's public property that would also be open to contest.

You could also get the money by doing big pay cuts on all senior admin, and eliminating a variety of redundant management positions. But that's hard and those people have money, so instead they'll balance it on the students and tuition because it's by far the easiest thing to do, and because they know that students will just take out more loans to cover it. So the next generation gets to pay compound interest to cover for these assholes.

DC Murderverse
Nov 10, 2016

"Tell that to Zod's snapped neck!"


as much as I think MSU should be torched to the ground the NCAA would be stretching their boundaries way way too far if they punished MSU for a team doctor and his boss, the dean of a Med school program. They're really not under the jurisdiction of the NCAA. And I say that as someone who thinks that the NCAA should absolutely have destroyed Penn State Football (because that was an assistant coach who was protected by his boss, the head football coach). If I'm not mistaken not all of Nassar's victims were gymnasts or even athletes (though most were), so it's not an athlete problem, it's a student problem.

Now, the federal government on the other hand should go in there and rip poo poo up and make sure the victims are fairly compensated and any and every person who had any sort of knowledge or authority over the situation to lose their jobs.

KennyTheFish
Jan 13, 2004


DC Murderverse posted:

Now, the federal government on the other hand should go in there and rip poo poo up and make sure the victims are fairly compensated and any and every person who had any sort of knowledge or authority over the situation to lose their jobs.

Its not a athletics governing body problem. It is a national problem requiring a national solution. I am not sure if the US has a process similar to a royal Commission from the commonwealth countries, but if they do this is the time to use it. Or just read the report from the Australian royal commission into the institutional response to sexual abuse https://www.childabuseroyalcommission.gov.au/

Luigi Thirty
Apr 30, 2006

Emergency confection port.


The equivalent would be a congressional investigation, I think? This definitely deserves a congressional investigation.

AsInHowe
Jan 11, 2007

Goal, assist, fight.

https://twitter.com/ChadLivengood/s...192361531166720

GobiasIndustries
Dec 14, 2007



Lipstick Apathy


https://twitter.com/johnmanly/status/981213523836469248

quote:

Detailed in the report were searches including the following:

"pelvic floor manipulations in athletes"
"Legal use of medical exam gloves"
"Is it illegal not to use gloves with intervaginal manipulations"
"Intravaginal manipulations for back pain"
"Pubic Hair Removal Demonstration (18+) YouTube"
"Vaginal massage"
"Is it illegal not to use gloves with intravaginal manipulations"

jit bull transpile
Jan 6, 2012



Gary’s Answer


In general it would be horrible if we profiled people based on google searches, but boy is that horrifying looking at it retrospectively.

General Dog
Apr 26, 2008




Dawg, have you ever heard of incognito mode?

AsInHowe
Jan 11, 2007

Goal, assist, fight.


Great to see that our top medical doctors don't know the difference between intra- and inter-.

Literally the dumbest perverts in this case.

iospace
Apr 20, 2020




Fun Shoe

As if on cue, RAINN just sent out an email about "what's abuse at the doctor's office."

Henchman of Santa
Aug 21, 2010


Great piece using this as a jumping off point for how colleges prey on loyalty
https://deadspin.com/how-big-colleg...agai-1823903554

The replies to her tweet about it are so embarrassing. Some fans really have gone full Paterno Protector about Dantonio and Izzo.

General Dog
Apr 26, 2008



Henchman of Santa posted:

Great piece using this as a jumping off point for how colleges prey on loyalty
https://deadspin.com/how-big-colleg...agai-1823903554

quote:

A school like Michigan State has so much power over such a wide swath of people that it can direct those fans in any direction it chooses. That could be toward positive action, or it could amount to lighting a fire and watching it burn.

It I don't believe a school can "direct them in any direction it chooses," fandom is inherently reactionary.

Apex Rogers
Jun 12, 2006

disturbingly functional

More sexual assault issues in the athletic program:
MSU facing lawsuit alleging basketball players raped student

MSU's response continues their stellar record in addressing sexual assault claims:
Michigan State's surprise sex lawsuit statement likely violated privacy laws

DJExile
Jun 27, 2007

If loving you is binturong, I don't want to binturight.

MSU Interim president John Engler seems like a real winner

quote:

Mr. Engler then looked directly at me and asked, Right now if I wrote you a check for $250,000 would you take it? When I explained that its not about the money for me and that I just want to help, he said, well give me a number.

...

Engler continued to get embarrassed at the meeting, as he later proposed a 2.97 percent tuition increase, shortly after teasing a large increase to cover legal fees from the Nassar case. This too was met with outrage.

What a vile man you are, student Dan Martel, a member of the grass-roots Reclaim MSU movement, said. To direct the anger cast by students for higher tuition rates on survivors of the worst sexual assault scandal in MSU history.

Henchman of Santa
Aug 21, 2010



Would you believe he was also a lovely governor?

DJExile
Jun 27, 2007

If loving you is binturong, I don't want to binturight.

Henchman of Santa posted:

Would you believe he was also a lovely governor?

Oh totally. I'm in Toledo and we've heard plenty of stories.

howe_sam
Mar 7, 2013

Creepy little garbage eaters

Did MSU even ask Granholm if she wanted the interim job? Seems like she would've been a better choice for a host of reasons.

DJExile
Jun 27, 2007

If loving you is binturong, I don't want to binturight.

howe_sam posted:

Did MSU even ask Granholm if she wanted the interim job? Seems like she would've been a better choice for a host of reasons.

I think they specified wanting an MSU alum, or at least former faculty member. Engler is both.

GobiasIndustries
Dec 14, 2007



Lipstick Apathy

i hate my alma mater so much right now, every at every loving turn they have handled this the exact wrong way jesus christ

Crazy Ted
Jul 29, 2003



I'm not sure if this is cartoonishly evil or just a spectacular amount of ignorance and incompetence.

Or both.

howe_sam
Mar 7, 2013

Creepy little garbage eaters

DJExile posted:

I think they specified wanting an MSU alum, or at least former faculty member. Engler is both.

MSU's ability to continually make the wrong decision is nothing short of breathtaking.

Chief McHeath
Apr 23, 2002



Should have shot for the moon. How much? Half a billion, the football stadium and 70% of athletic earnings yearly.

sportsgenius86
Jun 17, 2008

THE STREAK IS OVER


howe_sam posted:

Did MSU even ask Granholm if she wanted the interim job? Seems like she would've been a better choice for a host of reasons.

She's too smart to walk into that loving clownshow

AsInHowe
Jan 11, 2007

Goal, assist, fight.

howe_sam posted:

Did MSU even ask Granholm if she wanted the interim job? Seems like she would've been a better choice for a host of reasons.

She's a Democrat, certain groups of people would hate that.

DJExile
Jun 27, 2007

If loving you is binturong, I don't want to binturight.

Yeah in a situation like MSU's you basically have to find someone dumb/crazy enough to take the reigns for the time being. You don't want to be the president trying to guide a school through times like these, you want to be the one who follows that president once things have calmed down.

I don't know if they even approached Granholm but if they did i'm sure she realized full well that was far more trouble than it's worth.

jit bull transpile
Jan 6, 2012



Gary’s Answer

DJExile posted:

Yeah in a situation like MSU's you basically have to find someone dumb/crazy enough to take the reigns for the time being. You don't want to be the president trying to guide a school through times like these, you want to be the one who follows that president once things have calmed down.

I don't know if they even approached Granholm but if they did i'm sure she realized full well that was far more trouble than it's worth.

This in and of itself is so hosed up. Those in power don't view it as rewarding work to put to a stop a horrifying culture of surprise sex and secrecy.

General Dog
Apr 26, 2008



cis autodrag posted:

This in and of itself is so hosed up. Those in power don't view it as rewarding work to put to a stop a horrifying culture of surprise sex and secrecy.

It's a thankless, futile, 24-7 ultra-helljob, and I'm not going to blame anyone for not wanting to get nailed to that particular cross.

DJExile
Jun 27, 2007

If loving you is binturong, I don't want to binturight.

cis autodrag posted:

This in and of itself is so hosed up. Those in power don't view it as rewarding work to put to a stop a horrifying culture of surprise sex and secrecy.

Universities like Michigan State have gobs of bureaucracy and coming in as interim president in that situation isn't as easy as " just fire everyone and fix it". Even if Engler wasn't a massive scumbag, his job would basically be to take a torch to anyone connected to it, and pay the lawyers to make sure everything's done in a way that avoids wrongful termination lawsuits in case you can't fully prove someone can be fired for-cause. Meanwhile, anyone among the higher-ups you want to get rid of, odds are you're either paying the money to fight their buyout, or paying their buyout. Meanwhile, if (when) those suits come, now you're paying the lawyers again to defend against the suits. Donations meanwhile are understandably cratering, and your school PR has taken a massive hit so you're probably not going to get as many new students coming in. Meanwhile, you're (rightfully) getting pressure from the current students not to raise tuition to cover those costs, and doing what you can to sell the image (real, or otherwise) that things have actually improved and it's totally safe to send your kids here.

Even for the most perfect candidate to take over as president, that is a massive task and you're going to be hard-pressed to find someone who wants to take that position.

jit bull transpile
Jan 6, 2012



Gary’s Answer

DJExile posted:

Universities like Michigan State have gobs of bureaucracy and coming in as interim president in that situation isn't as easy as " just fire everyone and fix it". Even if Engler wasn't a massive scumbag, his job would basically be to take a torch to anyone connected to it, and pay the lawyers to make sure everything's done in a way that avoids wrongful termination lawsuits in case you can't fully prove someone can be fired for-cause. Meanwhile, anyone among the higher-ups you want to get rid of, odds are you're either paying the money to fight their buyout, or paying their buyout. Meanwhile, if (when) those suits come, now you're paying the lawyers again to defend against the suits. Donations meanwhile are understandably cratering, and your school PR has taken a massive hit so you're probably not going to get as many new students coming in. Meanwhile, you're (rightfully) getting pressure from the current students not to raise tuition to cover those costs, and doing what you can to sell the image (real, or otherwise) that things have actually improved and it's totally safe to send your kids here.

Even for the most perfect candidate to take over as president, that is a massive task and you're going to be hard-pressed to find someone who wants to take that position.

I understand this, and that's why I find it sad. It's a difficult, painful, thankless job and nobody wants to create an environment that incentivizes doing it. Instead they put an idiot in charge, wait for tensions to settle, then kinda hope all the monsters accept cushy retirement packages a couple years up the road. Nobody comes out with any kind of proper punishment or mark that would keep them away from potential victims in the future.

I don't think it's an accident things are set up this way either, but I know that's a more controversial statement to some.

Anals of History
Jul 29, 2003



MSU Alumni Assoc Director stepped down: https://www.freep.com/story/news/lo...?csp=chromepush

MSUAA has employed athletes in the past, usually at the behest of the athletic department. I'm going to guess that the director hired one with at least some knowledge of allegations.


GobiasIndustries posted:

i hate my alma mater so much right now, every at every loving turn they have handled this the exact wrong way jesus christ

DJExile
Jun 27, 2007

If loving you is binturong, I don't want to binturight.

Anals of History posted:

MSU Alumni Assoc Director stepped down: https://www.freep.com/story/news/lo...?csp=chromepush

MSUAA has employed athletes in the past, usually at the behest of the athletic department. I'm going to guess that the director hired one with at least some knowledge of allegations.




Yeah I'd imagine you're going to see a lot more of that as the investigators keep digging.

Anals of History
Jul 29, 2003



DJExile posted:

Yeah I'd imagine you're going to see a lot more of that as the investigators keep digging.

It makes sense and I'm sure more bloodletting is coming (and that it's absolutely warranted). It was just surprising to me b/c 1) MSUAA's kind of its own barely funded entity and I figured they were small enough to not get hit and 2) I've met this guy and would've never figured him for someone who would participate in a sexual assault coverup.

DJExile
Jun 27, 2007

If loving you is binturong, I don't want to binturight.

Anals of History posted:

It makes sense and I'm sure more bloodletting is coming (and that it's absolutely warranted). It was just surprising to me b/c 1) MSUAA's kind of its own barely funded entity and I figured they were small enough to not get hit and 2) I've met this guy and would've never figured him for someone who would participate in a sexual assault coverup.

It's entirely possible he didn't participate but just wants to get out of dodge.

Nissin Cup Nudist
Sep 3, 2011



Its impressive how Sparty is handling this worse than PSU

I don't think there are Nasser-truthers among the students, so thats a plus

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DJExile
Jun 27, 2007

If loving you is binturong, I don't want to binturight.

Sparty has reached a settlement with Nassar's victims for $500,000,000

quote:

Denhollander said she was happy to have the litigation part of this process behind her, but she and the 15-20 other women who were at the settlement talks aren't done fighting for change. She said the next step is to focus on changing laws that will make it easier to hold institutions and others accountable for sexual abuse.

Denhollander has been a driving force in a package of bills that is currently working its way through the legislative process in Michigan. The new laws, if passed by members of the House, would significantly extend the statute of limitations on civil sexual abuse cases and remove sovereign immunity protections from government-operated institutions like a university.

"The general tenor is that we're not done yet," Denhollander said.

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