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CAPTAIN CAPSLOCK
Sep 11, 2001



I am enjoying the worldbuilding and actual plot. Show is good.

Ugly In The Morning posted:

E: Ep 4 holy crap that ending where he gets up and wastes everyone with that PJ Harvey song was amazing

Tattoo granny owned pretty loving hard too.

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Ugly In The Morning
Jul 1, 2010


Just got to E7. This show rules. The action scenes are way better than you’d expect for a Netflix show. They’re really dynamic and the hits and gunshots have a really nice sense of weight and power to them.

I also like how it leans into the veneer of trashiness the book has. It didn’t just put a layer of grime on Blade Runner’s aesthetic, the people here are scuzzy as hell and I love it.

HardKase
Jul 15, 2007
TASTY

Just finished episode 10 I actually like Bancroft. Sure he killed that girl, but he was under the influence of drugs administered without his consent. I hope they let him off.

Proteus Jones
Feb 28, 2013



College Slice

HardKase posted:

Just finished episode 10 I actually like Bancroft. Sure he killed that girl, but he was under the influence of drugs administered without his consent. I hope they let him off.

Finished it. I never thought they would ever be able to be as faithful to the book as this show was. Well, not and make a GOOD show.

Overall, I was very pleased with this. There were a few stumbles, but still one of the better shows I've seen.

Blackchamber
Jan 25, 2005

Don't call me, I'll call you.


There are people religiously opposed to being re-sleeved. It seems like people for the most part can't afford to be re-sleeved even if they wanted to. Do they explain why (or is it in the books) why having a cortical stack is mandatory to be put in at the age of one?

Wouldn't it be a waste of time and money and effort to put something in everyone that so few will even be able to make use of that aren't living in the clouds 1%'ers?

SalTheBard
Jan 26, 2005

Somebody call Totoro

Blackchamber posted:

There are people religiously opposed to being re-sleeved. It seems like people for the most part can't afford to be re-sleeved even if they wanted to. Do they explain why (or is it in the books) why having a cortical stack is mandatory to be put in at the age of one?

Wouldn't it be a waste of time and money and effort to put something in everyone that so few will even be able to make use of that aren't living in the clouds 1%'ers?

Most people can afford to be resleeved they just get low quality bodies. Only the Meths can afford satellite backups (to backup the stack in case it is destroyed) and clones (so that they can live forever). You can resleeve into a clone as many times as you want, non clones you are limited to roughly 10.

Hilario Baldness
Feb 10, 2005





Grimey Drawer

Joel Kinnaman is really good in this show.

ZorajitZorajit
Sep 15, 2013

No static at all...

Just finished the first episode. I'm... not enjoying this. I felt like the amount of exposition was several dump trucks too much. The aesthetic was like a parody of Blade Runner's neon streets when it wasn't the Jetsons. And the tone with Edgar Allen Poe the AI was twee AND edgelording at once.

I don't want to rain on anybody's parade. But this disappointed me.

Ugly In The Morning
Jul 1, 2010


Blackchamber posted:

There are people religiously opposed to being re-sleeved. It seems like people for the most part can't afford to be re-sleeved even if they wanted to. Do they explain why (or is it in the books) why having a cortical stack is mandatory to be put in at the age of one?

Wouldn't it be a waste of time and money and effort to put something in everyone that so few will even be able to make use of that aren't living in the clouds 1%'ers?

In addition to the stuff mentioned above, prison has been replaced by putting the stack on ice. People need stacks to get put in prison/have their bodies leased out while they’re in the cyber clink.

Also, the only FTL travel in the series uses “needlecasting”, which transmits the consciousness of someone to a body present on the colonized world. That colony had to be set up by cryo’d people taking the slow boat, though.

E: Plus, sometimes cost isn’t a factor. Look at the little girl in ep 1. Sure, odds are they’ll give you a crappy sleeve because it’s all the have on hand, but if you get got the government can give you a freebie.

Ugly In The Morning fucked around with this message at Feb 3, 2018 around 06:44

Origami Dali
Jan 7, 2005

Get ready to fuck!
You fucker's fucker!
You fucker!


ZorajitZorajit posted:

Just finished the first episode. I'm... not enjoying this. I felt like the amount of exposition was several dump trucks too much. The aesthetic was like a parody of Blade Runner's neon streets when it wasn't the Jetsons. And the tone with Edgar Allen Poe the AI was twee AND edgelording at once.

I don't want to rain on anybody's parade. But this disappointed me.

Word. BR2049 could've gone wrong in so many ways. Watching this showed me how. I may watch more if I'm bored, but this pilot has mostly killed my interest.

Bloody Hedgehog
Dec 12, 2003

Gotta' nuke something.


Yeah, not really digging on this either. It's like a modern revival of old garbage Sci-Fi channel shows from the 90's. Updated and much slicker of course, but it's got that same vibe.

red19fire
May 26, 2010


I like it, but kind of tuned out halfway through. Blade Runner 2049-lite is a good approximation. With all the double crosses, re-sleeving, cloning, it all got a bit convoluted.

Xenomrph
Dec 9, 2005

AvP Nerd/Fanboy/Shill


I haven't read the book (but it's been on my to-read list for a while) but I love Blade Runner and BR2049, and I watched the first episode of this. I'm digging it quite a bit, it'll be a struggle to not binge-watch the rest of it over the weekend.

One question about sleeves - where do the spares come from? Are they random cloned bodies, or what? The first episode didn't really make that clear.

RangerKarl
Oct 7, 2013


Xenomrph posted:

I haven't read the book (but it's been on my to-read list for a while) but I love Blade Runner and BR2049, and I watched the first episode of this. I'm digging it quite a bit, it'll be a struggle to not binge-watch the rest of it over the weekend.

One question about sleeves - where do the spares come from? Are they random cloned bodies, or what? The first episode didn't really make that clear.

People are fitted for a stack from birth, which is why you get the random variation of people coming out of the prison; those are all other prisoners' sleeves. The finer details, better for you to pick up from the rest of the show. But yes, clones are a thing.

Gonz
Dec 22, 2009

Jesus, did I say that? Or just think it? Was I talking? Did they hear me?


I misread the thread title as Altered Cabrón, and now i’m sad we aren’t getting this show, but with Danny Trejo as the lead.

Rocksicles
Oct 19, 2012

DAAAAAMN!
Put your glasses back on.


ep3: Beryllium level, motherfucker!

Development
Jun 2, 2016



Rocksicles posted:

ep3: Beryllium level, motherfucker!

this. also jfc I am really enjoying this show. the backpack is probably my favourite prop.

Rocksicles
Oct 19, 2012

DAAAAAMN!
Put your glasses back on.


Joel Kinnaman is loving hilarious.

"Maple Bacon Donut, breakfast of champions"
"Aren't you Vegan?"
"Nah, vegetarian...but it's a donut."


Good times.

Teal
Feb 25, 2013

Man, future fucking sucks.


Well, I just binged all but last episode last night and then the final first thing in the morning.

Pretty excellent show I think, although I do feel like I missed out by not reading it in the book form instead.

The violence seemed a bit gratuitous at times (seriously, I can't get over the apple-coring weapon of choice), and all the flashbacks seemed to have a weirdly disproportionate B-ish production quality flavor to them compared to the primary arc which was generally pretty drat impressive for Netflix schlock. I also can't shake the feeling that the book had a whole chapter/arc about resolution 653 which was cut from the show yet a lot of the dialogue/story relied on it as being a thing so it felt weird with everyone referencing something super pivotal to the story while you only got to know what it was from by-the-ways. The arc with Lizzie had a similar flavor to it; it wasn't bad, it just felt like the climax in the final episode deserved a lot more preparation to support it.

Generally I have the feeling that they had to cram a story with a lot of poo poo going on and it's just kinda bursting out of the seams of the 10 episodes it's been allotted; maybe if they extended it to just 13 episodes, or split the whole first series in two of 8, with the first ending with Bancroft's murder getting "resolved" by the fakeout with his son being the murderer and the second one immediately starting with WAIT, NO, ACTUALLY and carrying on with the rest, that could have done it? Either way; a longer run could let you have more natural exposition of like, Dimi who was super pivotal but you never really learned much about him other than that he's insane, or Lizzie's reconstruction into a weird not-human, or a bit more actual exploration of Ryker, or heck, a whole episode dedicated to Poe...

Either way; I liked it, I'm glad they've done it, and it definitely stands out as legit good watch next to poo poo like all the MCU trash (which I'm guilty and regretful of consuming en masse as well). I still feel like I should eventually pick up the books (same with The Expanse; this show did feel a lot similar to it in a way).

Teal
Feb 25, 2013

Man, future fucking sucks.


HardKase posted:

Just finished episode 10 I actually like Bancroft. Sure he killed that girl, but he was under the influence of drugs administered without his consent. I hope they let him off.

I think the point was that as he realized at the end while turning himself in, going "we ruined each other"; the whole problem with the Meths was that over time they all turned into soul-less monsters and that while he maybe was only okay with "fake-killing" strippers, a "get away with surprise sex-murder brothel in the sky" shouldn't exist to begin with even if the usual guarantee says the whores get a new body afterwards.

I'm generally really sick of "death is a natural way of things and shouldn't be interfered with" pseudo philosophy but this story gave some compelling practical arguments for how even if they don't go magically quasi-insane from it, weird evil bourgeoisie not getting automatically purged at frequency of normal lifespan is a problem simply because their already ridiculous power, influence, and corruption stemming from it will be able to infinitely escalate.

Teal
Feb 25, 2013

Man, future fucking sucks.


ZorajitZorajit posted:

Just finished the first episode. I'm... not enjoying this. I felt like the amount of exposition was several dump trucks too much. The aesthetic was like a parody of Blade Runner's neon streets when it wasn't the Jetsons. And the tone with Edgar Allen Poe the AI was twee AND edgelording at once.

I don't want to rain on anybody's parade. But this disappointed me.

I completely agree the amount of exposition the show has to do is completely ridiculous and unbalanced and I'd simply blame this on them trying to cram too much of the original material into too short of a run-time. Poe was rad, though, and while I agree he might have seemed excessively bizarre in contrast of all the other poo poo the show unloaded on you at once, I enjoyed him as a thing.

Teal
Feb 25, 2013

Man, future fucking sucks.


SalTheBard posted:

Most people can afford to be resleeved they just get low quality bodies. Only the Meths can afford satellite backups (to backup the stack in case it is destroyed) and clones (so that they can live forever). You can resleeve into a clone as many times as you want, non clones you are limited to roughly 10.

I think they explained that the reason why people who can't live forever by resleeving into other regular bodies is that if you do resleeve into bodies other than you've been used to, you eventually go insane from it (as shown by Dimi) and presumably the effect in most is such that you're eventually just too sick and tired to do it again. Meanwhile clones don't have that effect, so if you can afford actual clones, it's all good forever.

navyjack
Jul 15, 2006

If I win, I get to be a king. If I lose, I get to be a legend!!


Hit and miss so far for me. I do have to admit I clapped my hands and laughed like a child when The Raven initiated guest protocols.

Boris Galerkin
Dec 17, 2011



What is needle cast? I think I’m on ep 4 and they’ve said those words a few times but I don’t get it

e: And meth? I get that it means “rich guy” but what’s it short for?

Boris Galerkin fucked around with this message at Feb 3, 2018 around 11:18

RangerKarl
Oct 7, 2013


Little weirded out about the O.G Kovacs/Envoy Kovacs sleeve(sleeves?). Are those two actors supposed to be playing the same body at different ages?

Milo and POTUS
Sep 3, 2017

I will not shut up about the Mighty Morphin Power Rangers. I talk about them all the time and work them into every conversation I have. I built a shrine in my room for the yellow one who died because sadly no one noticed because she died around 9/11. Wanna see it?


Boris Galerkin posted:

What is needle cast? I think I’m on ep 4 and they’ve said those words a few times but I don’t get it

e: And meth? I get that it means “rich guy” but what’s it short for?

Methuselah. Needlecast is how I think they transfer consciousness. I think. gently caress if I know.

Milo and POTUS
Sep 3, 2017

I will not shut up about the Mighty Morphin Power Rangers. I talk about them all the time and work them into every conversation I have. I built a shrine in my room for the yellow one who died because sadly no one noticed because she died around 9/11. Wanna see it?


But yeah, rich assholes.

Blamestorm
Aug 14, 2004

We LOL at death! Watch us LOL. Love the LOL.

Boris Galerkin posted:

What is needle cast? I think I’m on ep 4 and they’ve said those words a few times but I don’t get it

e: And meth? I get that it means “rich guy” but what’s it short for?

Needlecast is an interstellar data transfer, they basically transmit the stack at the speed of light into a new body or data storage facility - it’s how people move from world to world.

Some very mild book stuff: (not even really a spoiler, but just in case)
The idea behind the envoys (in the books) is they are an intelligence / military force which can be beamed to any planet in the interstellar protectorate and rapidly acclimate and become effective in new bodies, including quickly internalising the culture, language, norms etc to break rebellions or whatever. They kind of reversed it for the show by making the envoys the rebelling force, though, they are a still active wing of the Protectorate in the books and the main means by which a central government can exercise power on an interstellar level given the time involved in physically sending soldiers or whatever to another solar system. Kovacs ditched the envoys in the books (along with others) then subsequently got involved with some of the more revolutionary stuff, but he was never a true believer like in the show. In the books it’s implied the envoy training make that kind of loyalty difficult, and Kovacs is a bit of a loose cannon from when he was young. At the start of the books he is an ex-envoy basically out for himself as a criminal. His former envoy status plays a larger role in later books.

Meth = Methuselah - they do briefly mention this in the first episode. Their age.

Blamestorm fucked around with this message at Feb 3, 2018 around 11:45

Milo and POTUS
Sep 3, 2017

I will not shut up about the Mighty Morphin Power Rangers. I talk about them all the time and work them into every conversation I have. I built a shrine in my room for the yellow one who died because sadly no one noticed because she died around 9/11. Wanna see it?


Did I get drunk and miss an episode or something? Like between the main guy gets tortured episode and the next he is torturing some guy at stop and cop lady stops him? Who the gently caress is that guy?

Rocksicles
Oct 19, 2012

DAAAAAMN!
Put your glasses back on.


Milo and POTUS posted:

Did I get drunk and miss an episode or something? Like between the main guy gets tortured episode and the next he is torturing some guy at stop and cop lady stops him? Who the gently caress is that guy?

Just watch it.

Woden
May 6, 2006


ZorajitZorajit posted:

Just finished the first episode. I'm... not enjoying this. I felt like the amount of exposition was several dump trucks too much. The aesthetic was like a parody of Blade Runner's neon streets when it wasn't the Jetsons. And the tone with Edgar Allen Poe the AI was twee AND edgelording at once.

I don't want to rain on anybody's parade. But this disappointed me.

I'm on ep 5 and it doesn't get better, in fact they ratchet up the hard boiled noir tropes to such an extreme level I'm questioning how I could ever like the genre.

SalTheBard
Jan 26, 2005

Somebody call Totoro

Milo and POTUS posted:

Did I get drunk and miss an episode or something? Like between the main guy gets tortured episode and the next he is torturing some guy at stop and cop lady stops him? Who the gently caress is that guy?

Look at Kovacs nose

ZorajitZorajit
Sep 15, 2013

No static at all...

Woden posted:

I'm on ep 5 and it doesn't get better, in fact they ratchet up the hard boiled noir tropes to such an extreme level I'm questioning how I could ever like the genre.

The noir detective stuff I don’t mind, but there just was enough of it for me because of how much ~worldbuilding~ (ugh) they crammed in. I don’t need to know that there are 1000-ft tall alien trees somewhere. Just show me the cool tree, have a character say”it’s alive, you know?” And be done with it. Word building is a fun, immensely masturbatory exercise of genre writers that needs to stay in the background notes and obsessed wiki pages.

Anyway, I’m not in the mood to rag on something other folks are enjoying. I’ll watch another episode or two to give it a fair shake. Hardly be fair to judge TNG by its first episode, y’know.

Bobbin Threadbare
Jan 2, 2009

I'm looking for a flock of urbanmechs.



Ugly In The Morning posted:

In addition to the stuff mentioned above, prison has been replaced by putting the stack on ice. People need stacks to get put in prison/have their bodies leased out while they’re in the cyber clink.

You know, I still don't get that about the Altered Carbon universe; how the hell is freezing your personality for hundreds of years the new best form of punishment? I mean, sure, "alien body, alien world" would be a real shock when you wake up a few decades or centuries later, but that pales compared to what can happen in a real prison and it doesn't give the prisoner the motive or opportunity to reform. Plus the setting includes virtual reality, so it's not like they couldn't combine punishment/reform with the whole leasing-out-the-body thing. Hell, body leasing aside, people do the exact same thing out of boredom in Fear and Loathing in the Magic Kingdom. It feels like the system was put in place so that the main body-swapping conceit could happen rather than because anyone in-universe thought this was a better system for punishing criminals.

Proteus Jones
Feb 28, 2013



College Slice

Bobbin Threadbare posted:

You know, I still don't get that about the Altered Carbon universe; how the hell is freezing your personality for hundreds of years the new best form of punishment? I mean, sure, "alien body, alien world" would be a real shock when you wake up a few decades or centuries later, but that pales compared to what can happen in a real prison and it doesn't give the prisoner the motive or opportunity to reform. Plus the setting includes virtual reality, so it's not like they couldn't combine punishment/reform with the whole leasing-out-the-body thing. Hell, body leasing aside, people do the exact same thing out of boredom in Fear and Loathing in the Magic Kingdom. It feels like the system was put in place so that the main body-swapping conceit could happen rather than because anyone in-universe thought this was a better system for punishing criminals.

Having your stack on ice isn't just downtime. It's been a while, but I'm pretty sure the time is spent alternating between suspension and being spun up into VR "rehab" depending on sentence. And from the context the "rehab" is less than pleasant at it's best and living hell at it's worst.

FeastForCows
Oct 18, 2011


ZorajitZorajit posted:

Just finished the first episode. I'm... not enjoying this. I felt like the amount of exposition was several dump trucks too much.

Came here to say this. The amount and the way it's written is really jarring, and I'm only half an hour in. Pretty much the exact opposite of this:

Proteus Jones posted:

E: I'm also liking how it's showing as opposed to doing info dumps. There's a lot of important pieces to understanding this world that you pick up contextually rather than a 3rd party giving a bunch of "well you see..."

FeastForCows fucked around with this message at Feb 3, 2018 around 15:18

Bobbin Threadbare
Jan 2, 2009

I'm looking for a flock of urbanmechs.



Proteus Jones posted:

Having your stack on ice isn't just downtime. It's been a while, but I'm pretty sure the time is spent alternating between suspension and being spun up into VR "rehab" depending on sentence. And from the context the "rehab" is less than pleasant at it's best and living hell at it's worst.

I specifically remember that Kovacs was told to calm himself down before going into storage because the emotional state he was in when he went under would be the same as when he came back out. And that, to him, no time had passed between the moment he started his sentence and the moment he was revived on Earth. But then I only read the first book; is this maybe something that got retconned in later?

Proteus Jones
Feb 28, 2013



College Slice

Bobbin Threadbare posted:

I specifically remember that Kovacs was told to calm himself down before going into storage because the emotional state he was in when he went under would be the same as when he came back out. And that, to him, no time had passed between the moment he started his sentence and the moment he was revived on Earth. But then I only read the first book; is this maybe something that got retconned in later?

I'm probably mixing up criminal sentences and murder victim rehab or something. Or making it up whole cloth in my head due to bad memory.

It would probably be risky for an Envoy to be spun up anyhow, since they can subvert VR.

Josh Lyman
May 24, 2009




Bobbin Threadbare posted:

You know, I still don't get that about the Altered Carbon universe; how the hell is freezing your personality for hundreds of years the new best form of punishment? I mean, sure, "alien body, alien world" would be a real shock when you wake up a few decades or centuries later, but that pales compared to what can happen in a real prison and it doesn't give the prisoner the motive or opportunity to reform. Plus the setting includes virtual reality, so it's not like they couldn't combine punishment/reform with the whole leasing-out-the-body thing. Hell, body leasing aside, people do the exact same thing out of boredom in Fear and Loathing in the Magic Kingdom. It feels like the system was put in place so that the main body-swapping conceit could happen rather than because anyone in-universe thought this was a better system for punishing criminals.
Just lol if you think the criminal justice system is about reforming criminals. Sure, some people pay lip service to it, but it hasn't been true in practice for the 3,000 years that prisons have been around.

I mean, they put that 7 y/o girl in an adult man’s body. They clearly don’t care.

Consider also how much money the US wastes holding prisoners. It’s much cheaper to just throw a bunch of stacks in a (presumably figurative) freezer.

Josh Lyman fucked around with this message at Feb 3, 2018 around 14:52

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Josh Lyman
May 24, 2009




Teal posted:

I think the point was that as he realized at the end while turning himself in, going "we ruined each other"; the whole problem with the Meths was that over time they all turned into soul-less monsters and that while he maybe was only okay with "fake-killing" strippers, a "get away with surprise sex-murder brothel in the sky" shouldn't exist to begin with even if the usual guarantee says the whores get a new body afterwards.
If I'm not mistaken, Iridium level meant they real death'd, right?

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