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Neddy Seagoon
Oct 12, 2012


We've got this thing licked!



navyjack posted:

I mostly agree with this, with the exception of Nazi Abuela and The Raven.

I will freely admit that there is some stand-alone parts that are great (I also loved Poe as a character and Aryan Abuela), but any time they do something that actually interacts with the main plot it just lands with a dull thud.

A lot of the stuff they do change or add is without real thought for the implications upon the rest of the setting, like Poe's fancy nanotech body or the 3D Body Printer. If you can manipulate nanobots to that degree, for a mundane purpose, what the gently caress is anyone complaining about scarcity for?! A better way to do it would be a bunch of cheap-looking robot dummies scattered around, overlaying Poe as a hologram when he's doing something. Not to mention the stupidity of a hotel that can apparently only attend to a single guest at a time.


Also in hindsight on something with Ortega's family; Why go for the trite "OH NO, THEY'VE BEEN ~REAL DEATHED!~ when they could do something actually interesting and relevant to the setting like sleeve death and dealing with the fact she can't resleeve or even spin them up in VR because of their religious coding?

Neddy Seagoon fucked around with this message at Feb 20, 2018 around 08:45

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Proteus Jones
Feb 28, 2013



navyjack posted:

I mostly agree with this, with the exception of Nazi Abuela and The Raven.

Yes, the AI hotel was more of a character and involved than in the book, and was a great change. And Skinhead Abuela was a pretty smart way for them to show how the sleeve wasn’t an important part of identity, it was more like a set of clothes for the stack.

It’s just all the other changes they made, that were inexplicable to me and actually made the show lesser than my expectations. I know that translation of books to the screen require compromise in terms of plot elements, pacing, eliminating various sub-plots and paring some world building details to the bone. But the changes made here were baffling.

Don’t get me wrong, I liked it overall, but the wholesale changes made kept it from being truly great to me. Specifically, making Envoys the exact OPPOSITE of what they are in the books. It strains belief that some kung-fu hippy rebels on NotHarlan’s World could have *that* kind of reputation across the protectorate 200 years later. Especially when the Protectorate seemed to have smashed their rebellion in fairly quick order.

Also, having Rei be his sister was unnecessary.


It may be I’d have a different take if I hadn’t read the books first.

emanresu tnuocca
Sep 2, 2011


The envoys and their mission reminded me of Siona and the rebels from God Emperor of Dune.

I didn't read the book so I have nothing to compare them to but it seemed fine to me, it's always a sci-fi contrivance that there would be some movement that is opposed to transhumanism in all its forms, for some reason.

a foolish pianist
May 6, 2007
deadlift minimalist

Proteus Jones posted:

Don’t get me wrong, I liked it overall, but the wholesale changes made kept it from being truly great to me. Specifically, making Envoys the exact OPPOSITE of what they are in the books. It strains belief that some kung-fu hippy rebels on NotHarlan’s World could have *that* kind of reputation across the protectorate 200 years later. Especially when the Protectorate seemed to have smashed their rebellion in fairly quick order.

Also, having Rei be his sister was unnecessary.


It may be I’d have a different take if I hadn’t read the books first.

The Envoys weren't just some hippies on not_harlansworld. They were apparently a major threat to the protectorate because of their matrix bullshit. This is one of those points where book knowledge keeps you from paying attention to the show's details.

The show is pretty explicit that the Envoys were everywhere, murdering protectorate officials left and right, and included some of their own former elite soldiers.

a foolish pianist fucked around with this message at Feb 20, 2018 around 11:57

Bust Rodd
Oct 21, 2008
retard

I love all the people posting “the changes are all unnecessary and convoluted” when they form the emotional core of the show.

In the book, it sounds like Tok has like no reason to give a poo poo about any of this stuff. His sister going insane and becoming a space demon, Poe’s warmth in a see of cold
mechanical performances, Abuela, these are the only emotional threads in a show that is so invested in sex and violence that without them I wouldn’t have had any grasp of why any of this matters or to whom.

I get that you don’t like change, it’s scary, but you are JUST WRONG when you say it adds nothing, because without those changes the villain wouldn’t have mattered to anyone at home watching because your antagonist in a book is easier to hate because you’ve made an investment of time, energy, and imagination watching everything over Tokashi’s shoulder. TV needs to grip you because it goes at its own pace, not yours. The Abuela scene was probably the best soft sci-fi in the show, and Poe was a scene-stealer through and through because he was so charming and likeable and delightfully sexless in a show that seemed hardwired to make everyone an emotionless, sexy killing machine (even Lizzie!)

I might read the books, but you guys are all under the impression that people watch TV the same way they read books, which, uh, they don’t, and without the grounded emotional anchors of the changes, the show would have just been a violent fuckfest with probably no redeeming qualities.

Forest Rebel base and Quell were dumb though, I liked the episode but that entire plotline feels extremely janky and Quell’s
Line delivery comes off as “Autistic” instead of inspirational

Neddy Seagoon
Oct 12, 2012


We've got this thing licked!



a foolish pianist posted:

The Envoys weren't just some hippies on not_harlansworld. They were apparently a major threat to the protectorate because of their matrix bullshit. This is one of those points where book knowledge keeps you from paying attention to the show's details.

I don't think it counts as missing details when A: The series does nothing to establish them as a serious threat, and B: the Matrix bullshit was unnecessarily contrived to the massive detriment of the scene's original intent in the book.


Bust Rodd posted:

I love all the people posting “the changes are all unnecessary and convoluted” when they form the emotional core of the show.

In the book, it sounds like Tok has like no reason to give a poo poo about any of this stuff. His sister going insane and becoming a space demon, Poe’s warmth in a see of cold
mechanical performances, Abuela, these are the only emotional threads in a show that is so invested in sex and violence that without them I wouldn’t have had any grasp of why any of this matters or to whom.

I get that you don’t like change, it’s scary, but you are JUST WRONG when you say it adds nothing, because without those changes the villain wouldn’t have mattered to anyone at home watching because your antagonist in a book is easier to hate because you’ve made an investment of time, energy, and imagination watching everything over Tokashi’s shoulder. TV needs to grip you because it goes at its own pace, not yours. The Abuela scene was probably the best soft sci-fi in the show, and Poe was a scene-stealer through and through because he was so charming and likeable and delightfully sexless in a show that seemed hardwired to make everyone an emotionless, sexy killing machine (even Lizzie!)

I might read the books, but you guys are all under the impression that people watch TV the same way they read books, which, uh, they don’t, and without the grounded emotional anchors of the changes, the show would have just been a violent fuckfest with probably no redeeming qualities.

Forest Rebel base and Quell were dumb though, I liked the episode but that entire plotline feels extremely janky and Quell’s
Line delivery comes off as “Autistic” instead of inspirational

The issues we have isn't "OH GOD THEY CHANGED poo poo IT'S RUINED!" Indeed, we've all repeatedly stated we liked stuff like Abuela and Poe. Eva being cross-sleeved into a male body instead of just a different woman's is also a neat change.

The simple hard fact is the series derives all its plot directly from how the book goes, which is why we compare it so tightly, and when the series wanders away from that or changes stuff... the changes are pretty terrible. Reileen Kawahara getting turned into Tak's sister is just frankly borderline-rascist considering they're the only two characters of Japanese descent. It also breaks most of the goddamn plot, because she has zero reason not to just go visit Takeshi at the Raven at literally any point before he learns of her snuff brothels.

Lizzie's pretty much entirely exclusive to the series and her actress' performance is fine. The problem we have is that given she was one of Bancroft's regular hookers she needed to be white and blond because that's his thing. He's not out for getting laid, he does it because he venerates his wife to the point of frustration and can't bring himself to gently caress her.

Turning Laurens Bancroft into a complete sociopath also trashes the ending; The big reveal is this kindly "old" man torched his stack to keep Reileen from being able to blackmail him over being drugged into actually killing Mary-Ann in Head in the Clouds. Something you'd need Envoy intution to even join the dots on.

The basic thing with Stacks being big disks instead of just a small cylinder also just gets REALLY silly, because it turned every death into "oh no, they shot them IN THE STACK ". Also rendered the whole bit of Taking Kadmin's head from the Wei clinic completely pointless. Kovacs only takes the Wei Clinic's director's head in the book because he doesn't have time to stick around and hunt for the guy's stack in his spinal column.

Neddy Seagoon fucked around with this message at Feb 20, 2018 around 12:16

a foolish pianist
May 6, 2007
deadlift minimalist

It is pretty telling that only people who venerate the books (like, they're decent scifi, but jeez) object so stringently to the show.

Proteus Jones
Feb 28, 2013



a foolish pianist posted:

It is pretty telling that only people who venerate the books (like, they're decent scifi, but jeez) object so stringently to the show.

lol. Yeah, you go with that, champ.

Bust Rodd
Oct 21, 2008
retard

It took Tokashi like 4 and half minutes to put together what Rei did once she revealed herself, and I imagine that is probably the reason she didn’t just show up unceremoniously 250 years after he watched her die. If she’d just walked into the Raven instead of Dimi the twin what would have happened?

The stacks thing felt like a non-issue to me because having them stand out visually on screen is important for the variety of reasons other posters have said, TV is a visual medium and stacks are the central tenet of the show. Without their own visual language you’d have a bunch of characters holding up non-descript flash drives boring the poo poo out of viewers. Stacks are alien and cool, so they are easy to pay attention to.

I also thought Lizzie being black and her plot line ending worked way better because she was the only woman that didn’t look like his wife, which I generally think contributed to his wife’s anger. Like “he’s not even pretending to gently caress me any more”

Neddy Seagoon
Oct 12, 2012


We've got this thing licked!



Bust Rodd posted:

It took Tokashi like 4 and half minutes to put together what Rei did once she revealed herself, and I imagine that is probably the reason she didn’t just show up unceremoniously 250 years after he watched her die. If she’d just walked into the Raven instead of Dimi the twin what would have happened?

The stacks thing felt like a non-issue to me because having them stand out visually on screen is important for the variety of reasons other posters have said, TV is a visual medium and stacks are the central tenet of the show. Without their own visual language you’d have a bunch of characters holding up non-descript flash drives boring the poo poo out of viewers. Stacks are alien and cool, so they are easy to pay attention to.

I also thought Lizzie being black and her plot line ending worked way better because she was the only woman that didn’t look like his wife, which I generally think contributed to his wife’s anger. Like “he’s not even pretending to gently caress me any more”

It took Takeshi four minutes to work out what she'd done because he'd already gone through everyone else and learned the truth. If she'd shown up instead of Kadmin, he'd have happily run off with her.

Again, the problem with Stacks is they don't stop people dying. Every single character in the show that dies gets shot right through the stack for ~MAJOR DRAMA~.


Laurens Bancroft isn't a man out to see other women out of ego or pride or whatever; he's using them as surrogates for Miriam. Miriam knows all about his affairs, and he knows hers, but to her their children are treasured above all else. Her husband having a child by another woman was what crossed the line. The very root of his infidelity is specifically stated, even in the show; He loves his wife to the point of deification and can't bring himself to gently caress her. He's not looking to see other women, he's just venting his own frustrations and paying them for their time.

dead comedy forums
Oct 21, 2011


a foolish pianist posted:

It is pretty telling that only people who venerate the books (like, they're decent scifi, but jeez) object so stringently to the show.

an adaptation can be easily better (Legion blew my loving mind for instance and depending on how that goes he might become the best tv marvel can offer), ofc

but, you don't need the books: altered carbon goes downhill fast once the cool ideas and premises are familiar and the script takes hold, and those issues are mostly derived from the changes made to the series. Quell was imho badly characterized, mostly because you have these noir cyberpunk figures then suddenly syfy eco-warlord that is also the person that discovered the stacks and wants to end immortality because it inevitably corrupts man wtf

why avoid that the issue isn't that, but rather, the system?

and there is Reileen, which could have made for a really interesting dynamic but felt totally botched for me, like for example:

you are an evil mastermind with a couple of centuries under your belt, yet even though you are keeping eye in your brother all the loving time and you supposedly are doing all this loving evil poo poo just for the sake of both, how the gently caress you let him get ultra-turbo-cyber-tortured IN YOUR OWN CLINIC?

Bust Rodd
Oct 21, 2008
retard

dead comedy forums posted:


and there is Reileen, which could have made for a really interesting dynamic but felt totally botched for me, like for example:

you are an evil mastermind with a couple of centuries under your belt, yet even though you are keeping eye in your brother all the loving time and you supposedly are doing all this loving evil poo poo just for the sake of both, how the gently caress you let him get ultra-turbo-cyber-tortured IN YOUR OWN CLINIC?

The answer to this is the over-the-top ludicrous incompetence of Dimi the Twin. Like all of people’s complaints about Reileen and her story making no sense are because Dimi is absolutely no match for Tokashi mentally or physically and Tokashi was shaking off 250 years of rust and also tripping balls when Dimi jumped him.

I also posit that it would take Tokashi no longer than 15 minutes at any point in the series to be like “Hey wait why are you insanely rich? Where does your money come from? How do you know where I am? If I saw you die and you’re still here...” and arriving at the same conclusion, Reileen’s plotline isn’t nearly as entangled with Bancroft’s as that, her betrayal and opulence are pretty divorced from it and he’d still figure it out once he saw how rich she was.

Tiggum
Oct 23, 2007

Mary Worth had an illicit affair with Refurb and kidnapped Sophie when she learned the truth. Little did Sophie know, but she was held in Apartment 3G under the watchful eye of The Phantom until Dick Tracy rescued her. Meanwhile, in spite of everything, Working Daze still sucked.



You heard people in the show call him "Tak", you saw everyone else in this thread writing "Takeshi", you even referred to him as "Tak" yourself in your first post, and yet now you consistently get it wrong. Are you doing it on purpose to be annoying?

Bust Rodd
Oct 21, 2008
retard

Tiggum posted:

You heard people in the show call him "Tak", you saw everyone else in this thread writing "Takeshi", you even referred to him as "Tak" yourself in your first post, and yet now you consistently get it wrong. Are you doing it on purpose to be annoying?

Sorry dude I’ll get out of your way so you can have the same slap fight with Zaphod for another 1,000 years, that’s way less annoying

Noctone
Oct 25, 2005

XO til we overdose..

Why do you keep calling him "Tokashi"? Not getting the main character's name right kind of makes it hard for anyone to take your arguments seriously.

Bust Rodd
Oct 21, 2008
retard

2kashi Kovatch blew ur staxxx

Neddy Seagoon
Oct 12, 2012


We've got this thing licked!



Bust Rodd posted:

The answer to this is the over-the-top ludicrous incompetence of Dimi the Twin. Like all of people’s complaints about Reileen and her story making no sense are because Dimi is absolutely no match for Tokashi mentally or physically and Tokashi was shaking off 250 years of rust and also tripping balls when Dimi jumped him.

I also posit that it would take Tokashi no longer than 15 minutes at any point in the series to be like “Hey wait why are you insanely rich? Where does your money come from? How do you know where I am? If I saw you die and you’re still here...” and arriving at the same conclusion, Reileen’s plotline isn’t nearly as entangled with Bancroft’s as that, her betrayal and opulence are pretty divorced from it and he’d still figure it out once he saw how rich she was.

If she's not gonna go herself, still nothing stopping her going in one of her numerous spare sleeves as "a friend". Kovacs never figured that one until he saw the cryocaps.

Also how would anyone with over 200 years of criminal experience willingly send someone like Kadmin to get the person mist important to them if they know they're an incompetent thug?

McDragon
Sep 11, 2007



Oh my goodness this is based on that Altered Carbon. Will have to try this out, I remember the book being pretty good

Rhyno
Mar 22, 2003

Coach Bloodshot
Default Status: SHOUTING


Tiggum posted:

You heard people in the show call him "Tak", you saw everyone else in this thread writing "Takeshi", you even referred to him as "Tak" yourself in your first post, and yet now you consistently get it wrong. Are you doing it on purpose to be annoying?

Of all the people to try and call out another poster in this thread.




For real dude?

Motherfucker
Jul 16, 2011



I never read the book but this show was dope and had all the good poo poo I love, titties violence and transhumanism.

Zoracle Zed
Jul 10, 2001


it's a waste of time to complain about not being able to adapt books 2 and 3 properly, they're gonna keep all the same characters and actors and invent another murder mystery for Kovacs to solve

Rhyno
Mar 22, 2003

Coach Bloodshot
Default Status: SHOUTING


Zoracle Zed posted:

it's a waste of time to complain about not being able to adapt books 2 and 3 properly, they're gonna keep all the same characters and actors and invent another murder mystery for Kovacs to solve

Kinneman has already said he's not doing season 2.

Strom Cuzewon
Jul 1, 2010


Zoracle Zed posted:

it's a waste of time to complain about not being able to adapt books 2 and 3 properly, they're gonna keep all the same characters and actors and invent another murder mystery for Kovacs to solve

I would be perfectly fine if they never moved past the first three chapters of book 2, and we got 10 whole episodes of Catch-22-in space!

Proteus Jones
Feb 28, 2013



Rhyno posted:

Kinneman has already said he's not doing season 2.

Which is good (not that he was bad). The ENTIRE point of stacks is being able to sleeve into different bodies. For an Envoy it means using a body that blends in to wherever he’s been needlecast.

Hell, I’d love to see them seriously change up sleeves mid-season, but that might be a bridge too far for some viewers (in the producer’s mind).

Xealot
Nov 25, 2002

Showdown in the Galaxy Era.



Proteus Jones posted:

Which is good (not that he was bad). The ENTIRE point of stacks is being able to sleeve into different bodies. For an Envoy it means using a body that blends in to wherever he’s been needlecast.

Hell, I’d love to see them seriously change up sleeves mid-season, but that might be a bridge too far for some viewers (in the producer’s mind).

I'd be into that, too. But yeah, there's no way they don't retain some actors for a new season, regardless of how much sense it makes in-universe.

If the worst that ends up being is, "Bancroft paid Takeshi a poo poo-ton, so he spent it on a Will Yun Lee clone to recognize himself again," that'd be fine.

Neddy Seagoon
Oct 12, 2012


We've got this thing licked!



Zoracle Zed posted:

it's a waste of time to complain about not being able to adapt books 2 and 3 properly, they're gonna keep all the same characters and actors and invent another murder mystery for Kovacs to solve

It's less "oh no, they can't adapt books 2 and 3 properly" and more "oh dear, they won't have a book to rely on for season 2 and it's going to be largely their own poorly-written work ."



Proteus Jones posted:

Hell, I'd love to see them seriously change up sleeves mid-season, but that might be a bridge too far for some viewers (in the producer's mind).

It's something they should have been doing in this season. But, no, the best they can manage is "Stacks prevent real death so LET'S SHOOT EVERYONE THROUGH THE STACK FOR DRAMA! ". It's not even a hard thing to take advantage of in several parts of the series;

Ortega's life-long uncle-like figure, who was a devout Muslim, just got killed and is now resleeved in a body that is contemporary with her own age (if not younger) and is now asian/caucasian/black.

Ortega's entire family got butchered by Leung and their stacks are perfectly intact, but because of her mother's loving outdated religious beliefs she legally cannot even spin them up in VR or resleeve them. Not even her little brothers.

Young Freud
Nov 25, 2006



Neddy Seagoon posted:

It's something they should have been doing in this season. But, no, the best they can manage is "Stacks prevent real death so LET'S SHOOT EVERYONE THROUGH THE STACK FOR DRAMA! ". It's not even a hard thing to take advantage of in several parts of the series;

Ortega's life-long uncle-like figure, who was a devout Muslim, just got killed and is now resleeved in a body that is contemporary with her own age (if not younger) and is now asian/caucasian/black.

I was actually thinking about that Samir gets put into a woman's body and struggles with his Muslim upbringing trying to figure if he needs to wear a hijab or not.

Neddy Seagoon posted:

Ortega's entire family got butchered by Leung and their stacks are perfectly intact, but because of her mother's loving outdated religious beliefs she legally cannot even spin them up in VR or resleeve them. Not even her little brothers.

I'll be honest, I thought that actually happened. I mean, I figured early on that the Ghostwalker's weapon is a stack extractor.

Motherfucker
Jul 16, 2011



one of my dumb theories was that the ghostwalker was actually a religious figure who could do legal religious conversions and was doing them before he topped people.

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Neddy Seagoon
Oct 12, 2012


We've got this thing licked!



Young Freud posted:

I'll be honest, I thought that actually happened. I mean, I figured early on that the Ghostwalker's weapon is a stack extractor.

Oh no it's a stack destroyer that he slams through their throat, because he's the villain and he's inflicting ~REAL DEATH~ on people because he's badass and .

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