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Teal
Feb 25, 2013

Man, future fucking sucks.


Josh Lyman posted:

If I'm not mistaken, Iridium level meant they real death'd, right?

Honestly I'm not completely clear on this; maybe I'm just a confused idiot but that whole deal about why are the whores actually dying was a bit confusing to me. I thought the previous levels just were in VR, or with synths, and the point of Iridium was that it was a real person in a sleeve and if you RD'd in Iridium they'd cover your rear end but it wasn't an intended feature. If they were trying to market real death every time, they could just use whores with a backup, couldn't they? I thought that the reason why they didn't actually respin the whores even when they didn't get RD'd was that it was simply cheaper to do it that way than to actually buy the new sleeves all the time when you could instead hire a whore, let her get offed, and never pay any of them.

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Ugly In The Morning
Jul 1, 2010


ZorajitZorajit posted:

The noir detective stuff I donít mind, but there just was enough of it for me because of how much ~worldbuilding~ (ugh) they crammed in. I donít need to know that there are 1000-ft tall alien trees somewhere. Just show me the cool tree, have a character sayĒitís alive, you know?Ē And be done with it. Word building is a fun, immensely masturbatory exercise of genre writers that needs to stay in the background notes and obsessed wiki pages.

Anyway, Iím not in the mood to rag on something other folks are enjoying. Iíll watch another episode or two to give it a fair shake. Hardly be fair to judge TNG by its first episode, yíknow.
If it makes you feel any better about it, the second and third book (especially second) heavily use the alien stuff for the plot, so theyíre likely more setting it up now so it doesnít feel like theyíre pulling it out of their rear end later.

Teal posted:

. I also can't shake the feeling that the book had a whole chapter/arc about resolution 653 which was cut from the show yet a lot of the dialogue/story relied on it as being a thing so it felt weird with everyone referencing something super pivotal to the story while you only got to know what it was from by-the-ways.

Itís been a while since I read the book, but if I remember right, the resolution 653 stuff is handled exactly the same way. If anything, itís more prominent here. If they spend too much time focusing on something like that it ends up making the solution to the murder a bit too obvious.

Blackchamber
Jan 25, 2005

Don't call me, I'll call you.


I'm only through episode 4 but I'm liking it so far. Shows like this always make me want there to be a Shadowrun universe based show.

I don't mind the exposition here since I find it really interesting. I wonder though if everyone just gets re-sleeved what does that do to the job market? How do you get any kind of skilled job when theres a guy whos been doing it for 2 or 3 sleeve changes vs a natural born person with no experience? Are most people forced into going off world to one of the other habitable planets? Is that one of the reasons why cortical stacks came to being, so that they could reduce the number of 'deaths', creating a large population to inhabit the universe?

Bobbin Threadbare
Jan 2, 2009

I'm looking for a flock of urbanmechs.



Josh Lyman posted:

Just lol if you think the criminal justice system is about reforming criminals. Sure, some people pay lip service to it, but it hasn't been true in practice for the 3,000 years that prisons have been around.

I mean, they put that 7 y/o girl in an adult manís body. They clearly donít care.

Consider also how much money the US wastes holding prisoners. Itís much cheaper to just throw a bunch of stacks in a (presumably figurative) freezer.

That's why I said it doesn't work as a form of punishment either, at least compared to the conditions of any actual prison. Hell, you can't even use them as prison labor when they're frozen in time, and even if you lease out their bodies I'm sure you could have them doing menial desk jobs in VR or sleeve them into primitive bodies to do something dangerous and lousy like picking fruit or running an asbestos mine. So it's not even about this being the most cynical of all futures here.

SalTheBard
Jan 26, 2005

Somebody call Totoro

Bobbin Threadbare posted:

That's why I said it doesn't work as a form of punishment either, at least compared to the conditions of any actual prison. Hell, you can't even use them as prison labor when they're frozen in time, and even if you lease out their bodies I'm sure you could have them doing menial desk jobs in VR or sleeve them into primitive bodies to do something dangerous and lousy like picking fruit or running an asbestos mine. So it's not even about this being the most cynical of all futures here.

Think about how many people you could house in 1 prison though

Ugly In The Morning
Jul 1, 2010


And ďyouíll miss out on x number of years, and wake up in a body that is unlikely to be your ownĒ sounds pretty drat punishing to me.

DeadFatDuckFat
Oct 29, 2012


Ugly In The Morning posted:

And ďyouíll miss out on x number of years, and wake up in a body that is unlikely to be your ownĒ sounds pretty drat punishing to me.

I think it's not really that the body isn't "your own", but that it's almost guaranteed to be a lovely sleeve since the nice ones are expensive(capitalism!). The only people hung up on having their own bodies are the religious.

Josh Lyman
May 24, 2009




People seem to be overly discounting the idea of being on ice for 100 years. "Oh, you get re-sleeved, no biggie" when you'll probably lose all your family and certainly your livelihood.

Bobbin Threadbare
Jan 2, 2009

I'm looking for a flock of urbanmechs.



Josh Lyman posted:

People seem to be overly discounting the idea of being on ice for 100 years. "Oh, you get re-sleeved, no biggie" when you'll probably lose all your family and certainly your livelihood.

I'm not discounting that, I'm saying you can already get that, plus more, when you spend several decades in prison. Today.

Josh Lyman
May 24, 2009




Bobbin Threadbare posted:

I'm not discounting that, I'm saying you can already get that, plus more, when you spend several decades in prison. Today.
Let's assume that the criminal justice system in Altered Carbon doesn't care about prisoner rehabilitation, which seems reasonable. The question then becomes, why don't they extract more value out of prisoners?

It's not clear to me that there's a huge need for that. I mean, prisoners these days do things like clean up trash and fabricate road signs, but the pseudo-dystopia in the show seems mainly to be that rich people are just bigger pieces of poo poo. Regular people seem to be doing okay, not starving or being culled like in The Hunger Games.

3peat
May 6, 2010



I just finished this and I thought it was pretty good, certainly better than other recent scifi shows like Orville which was so horrible I couldn't get past the pilot, or the new Star Trek which was pretty mediocre and boring.
I did read the books a long time ago and the one thing I remember most were the hilariously bad sex scenes which seemed copy pasted from the worst poo poo you could find on literotica. The show didn't have that so it was by default better, but I also did enjoy it more in general and I like the changes they made, like the rebellion stuff.
That said the other books were way better than the first, one reason being that they ditch the noir cyberpunk crap in favor of more interesting scifi, so I'm looking forward to the next season(s).

am0kgonzo
Jun 18, 2010


3peat posted:

ditch the noir cyberpunk crap

Ugly In The Morning
Jul 1, 2010



I liked the noir cyberpunk stuff, but Broken Angels going from that to a War-movie western before going totally nuts with (book spoiler) alien stuff was amazing.

Milo and POTUS
Sep 3, 2017

I will not shut up about the Mighty Morphin Power Rangers. I talk about them all the time and work them into every conversation I have. I built a shrine in my room for the yellow one who died because sadly no one noticed because she died around 9/11. Wanna see it?


3peat posted:

I just finished this and I thought it was pretty good, certainly better than other recent scifi shows like Orville which was so horrible I couldn't get past the pilot, or the new Star Trek which was pretty mediocre and boring.
I did read the books a long time ago and the one thing I remember most were the hilariously bad sex scenes which seemed copy pasted from the worst poo poo you could find on literotica. The show didn't have that so it was by default better, but I also did enjoy it more in general and I like the changes they made, like the rebellion stuff.
That said the other books were way better than the first, one reason being that they ditch the noir cyberpunk crap in favor of more interesting scifi, so I'm looking forward to the next season(s).

Orville was pretty great and probably better than this so...

etalian
Mar 20, 2006


It's pretty decent, at least will hold me over until the next season of The Expanse.

Bobbin Threadbare
Jan 2, 2009

I'm looking for a flock of urbanmechs.



Josh Lyman posted:

Let's assume that the criminal justice system in Altered Carbon doesn't care about prisoner rehabilitation, which seems reasonable. The question then becomes, why don't they extract more value out of prisoners?

It's not clear to me that there's a huge need for that. I mean, prisoners these days do things like clean up trash and fabricate road signs, but the pseudo-dystopia in the show seems mainly to be that rich people are just bigger pieces of poo poo. Regular people seem to be doing okay, not starving or being culled like in The Hunger Games.

Are you saying the heads of corporations in a dystopian setting wouldn't want to exploit what's effectively a form of indentured servitude?

Teal
Feb 25, 2013

Man, future fucking sucks.


Bobbin Threadbare posted:

That's why I said it doesn't work as a form of punishment either, at least compared to the conditions of any actual prison. Hell, you can't even use them as prison labor when they're frozen in time, and even if you lease out their bodies I'm sure you could have them doing menial desk jobs in VR or sleeve them into primitive bodies to do something dangerous and lousy like picking fruit or running an asbestos mine. So it's not even about this being the most cynical of all futures here.

Well, losing your sleeve is the "labor" - you can go in healthy and young and end when coming out end up with some addicted (the story mentions these carry over) crack whore that will keel over and die in a month (in which case as far as I understand you don't get squat all and if you can't afford a new sleeve, just end up kinda limbo-dead).

Another issue is that if you keep resleeving into new, mismatched bodies, you will go insane, so it's not like you can keep doing that forever.

Generally though even the "gutter" areas in the story don't really seem bad in this I am just going to presume it's a post-scarcity world where the real concerns of people are no longer "am I going to be able to afford food".

Also, Kovacs, being an envoy probably meant that his "hasn't woken up in 250 years" treatment might have been a special case. Who knows if all the common criminals aren't on forced labor sentences providing tech support or making advertising phonecalls.

Ugly In The Morning
Jul 1, 2010


Why would you need indentured servants when you have AI and robots are a thing?

Teal
Feb 25, 2013

Man, future fucking sucks.


Ugly In The Morning posted:

Why would you need indentured servants when you have AI and robots are a thing?

...filling in captcha?

Blackchamber
Jan 25, 2005

Don't call me, I'll call you.


Ugly In The Morning posted:

Why would you need indentured servants when you have AI and robots are a thing?

Didn't everyone give Kovacs crap about going to an AI hotel? I thought AI were disliked for some reason, and the people Poe meets to play cards were influential but stayed in the shadows

Besides being rich enough to own a person and all they require to live day to day might seem decadent for those who can afford to do it.

CAPTAIN CAPSLOCK
Sep 11, 2001



ep8: "Do you realize how much money you just cost me?" Maybe you should have had a better plan than to through your expensive clones at Ortega until she ran out of ammo hahaha.

False
Oct 6, 2003
i have friends who will pull magazine models wearing headphones off of trains without even speaking the same language as them. Friends who will show up in a town after hitchhiking cross country for 3 days without showering and pull two girls working

Surprised at just how bad this is. It has the exact same "every scene was filmed at oblique angles to obscure the fact that we're shooting in a warehouse" feel as any generic Sci-Fi channel show yet somehow manages to one-down those shows in acting. Kovacs has no range or affect and Ortega has to be one of the worst actors to get on a major show in awhile. The dialogue, along with most plotting and exposition, feels like a first draft for a fanfic noir writing contest, the voice overs are dumb... just blah. Even the much ballyhoo'd sex and violence are surprisingly tame, badly edited, and poorly choreographed (the fighting anyway - the sexual content is really minor compared to HBO/Startz).

The book is pretty good though - people should check it out.

False fucked around with this message at Feb 3, 2018 around 18:47

Dahbadu
Aug 22, 2004

That's right.


I'm three episodes in, and so far this series is excellent. Given the source material, I haven't seen a better adaption of a cyberpunk novel.

Dahbadu
Aug 22, 2004

That's right.


etalian posted:

It's pretty decent, at least will hold me over until the next season of The Expanse.

Also, this. The Expanse is better, but The Expanse is really loving good. People should watch it.

a foolish pianist
May 6, 2007
deadlift minimalist

False posted:

Kovacs has no range or affect and Ortega has to be one of the worst actors to get on a major show in awhile.

I think you might have missed the point of both the book and the show. The flat affect is a pretty crucial part of the character.

Proteus Jones
Feb 28, 2013



Dahbadu posted:

Also, this. The Expanse is better, but The Expanse is really loving good. People should watch it.

Agreed. This may be my favorite Netflix show, but The Expanse and Legion are still way ahead of it.

It's good and I liked it overall, but it's not as good narratively as The Expanse, or as mind-blowingly incredible as Legion. It had all the ingredients to do both, but just fell short.

Teal
Feb 25, 2013

Man, future fucking sucks.


Dahbadu posted:

The Expanse is better, but The Expanse is really loving good. People should watch it.

Bobbin Threadbare
Jan 2, 2009

I'm looking for a flock of urbanmechs.



Blackchamber posted:

Didn't everyone give Kovacs crap about going to an AI hotel? I thought AI were disliked for some reason, and the people Poe meets to play cards were influential but stayed in the shadows

As I recall, the book explains when it introduces the hotel that there was a human-robot war a few hundred years ago and the humans won. The Hendrix/Poe survived by buying itself out and keeping to itself.

What's kind of ironic is that AI eventually won, since the moment you leave your original meat brain you qualify as an artificial intelligence.

Proteus Jones
Feb 28, 2013



Bobbin Threadbare posted:

What's kind of ironic is that AI eventually won, since the moment you leave your original meat brain you qualify as an artificial intelligence.

We prefer the term Synthetic Intelligence

THEY. I MEAN THEY PREFER SI.

Ugly In The Morning
Jul 1, 2010


Bobbin Threadbare posted:

As I recall, the book explains when it introduces the hotel that there was a human-robot war a few hundred years ago and the humans won. The Hendrix/Poe survived by buying itself out and keeping to itself.

What's kind of ironic is that AI eventually won, since the moment you leave your original meat brain you qualify as an artificial intelligence.

Nope, no human-robot War.

quote:

ďArchive prťcis I ran on the way over here says it got done a couple of centuries back, when the corporate wars turned nasty. Makes sense. With all that poo poo breaking loose, a lot of buildings were retooling to cope. Course, most of the companies went under shortly afterwards with the trading crash, so no one ever got around to passing a decommissioning bill. The Hendrix upgraded to artificial-intelligence status instead and bought itself out.Ē

Three cheers for kindle search!

Blackchamber
Jan 25, 2005

Don't call me, I'll call you.


"when the corporate wars turned nasty"

Dark Matter universe tie-in opportunity!

Mercrom
Jul 17, 2009


I watched 2 episodes and the writing is retarded. At least it looks good.

Bobbin Threadbare
Jan 2, 2009

I'm looking for a flock of urbanmechs.



Ugly In The Morning posted:

Nope, no human-robot War.


Three cheers for kindle search!

Looks like you're right, but the key passage--such as it is--is in the next paragraph.

quote:

Lot of the hotels on this strip are A.I.Ē She grinned at me through the smoke. ďThatís why no one stays in them. Shame, really.

Skimming the book, it looks like the only reason AI are unpopular is because they're essentially inhuman and it makes people uncomfortable to work with them. Thus they'll only use an AI when absolutely necessary.

etalian
Mar 20, 2006


Joi was a dream waifu

Ugly In The Morning
Jul 1, 2010


Bobbin Threadbare posted:

Looks like you're right, but the key passage--such as it is--is in the next paragraph.


Skimming the book, it looks like the only reason AI are unpopular is because they're essentially inhuman and it makes people uncomfortable to work with them. Thus they'll only use an AI when absolutely necessary.

Yeah, but I donít see how that would discount robots for stuff you would use convicts for, especially if itís not true AI. Itís not like they have to have a conversation with a mining drone. Do the managers at a Toyota plant talk to the assembly line robots?

Bobbin Threadbare
Jan 2, 2009

I'm looking for a flock of urbanmechs.



Ugly In The Morning posted:

Yeah, but I donít see how that would discount robots for stuff you would use convicts for, especially if itís not true AI. Itís not like they have to have a conversation with a mining drone. Do the managers at a Toyota plant talk to the assembly line robots?

Because you'll always have a ready supply of convicts and developing software is expensive.

Anyway, we're getting deep enough to the point where it's impossible to really predict what and how much things would have to change to result in Altered Carbon's future. I remain unsatisfied with the deep-freeze penal system the book describes, but if we keep going at this point we'll just wander further and further away from the text of the novel.

Party Plane Jones
Jul 1, 2007

Flying the friendly skies in relative safet-oh god the engine fell off


Last couple episodes get a bit verbose. Show, don't tell, writers.

Dichen Lachman is great though.

etalian
Mar 20, 2006


The pilot episode had big helpings of tits, rear end and James Purefoy dick

Stokes
Jun 13, 2003

Maybe Kris can come in, and we can throw M-80s at his asshole.

I love this show. It's like if a Syfy original series got to be what it wanted to be instead of what it had to be. Anyone got a youtube link to the More Human than Human cover that played at the end of episode 6?

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Ugly In The Morning
Jul 1, 2010


Stokes posted:

I love this show. It's like if a Syfy original series got to be what it wanted to be instead of what it had to be. Anyone got a youtube link to the More Human than Human cover that played at the end of episode 6?

Itís not on YouTube, but itís the version by Sune Rose Wagner. I think it may be on Spotify though.


E:nope, it is available exactly nowhere.

Ugly In The Morning fucked around with this message at Feb 3, 2018 around 22:58

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