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Hammerstein
May 6, 2005

YOU DON'T KNOW A DAMN THING ABOUT RACING !

Strom Cuzewon posted:

Book Meths don't go crazy because they're so immortal, they're evil upper-classholes who have so much power and wealth that they're completely above the law and start growing bored with the mundane pursuits the rest of us can afford. Being resleeved a bunch doesn't cause you to go crazy because you've passed some mythical 10 sleeve limit, you're just gonna suffer the mental strain of being constantly torn away from everything you know and everyone you love. Sleeving sickness isn't a problem, the problem is being dropped into a foreign world with no cultural touchstones for you to understand, with no connections to your fellow man.

Finished the series today but never read the book. Loved the Bladerunner-esque settings and visuals, but ultimately I think that a lot of potential was squandered. Meths getting bored in a universe where interstellar travel is a possibility and instead getting their kick in a flying snuff-brothel seems dumb, as well as the almost cartoonishly evil sister.

Also didn't like the Columbo ending. If Meths had the kind of power that is always described, then the protagonist and his rag-tag band of filthy poors should never have stood a chance.

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Young Freud
Nov 25, 2006



Spatula City posted:

Everything is ludicrously on-the-nose in this series, it's kind of great. If there's any complaints I have about it, it's that it sort of loses the plot of the Bancroft mystery, and then belatedly remembers to wrap it up.

Also, jfc Kovacs' sister is just a complete irredeemable demon shitbird. Like, when we come back to Bancroft near the end, it really makes him, and even his wife seem likable and human by comparison. It was EXTREMELY on the nose to make Kovacs' sister the complete embodiment of everything Quell feared.
I think it's fascinating that possibly like, at max 3 of the main cast will appear in season 2. If Kinnaman returns, it'll be as Elias Ryker, and they'll either get a new guy for Kovacs, or have him played by the same guy who played OG Kovacs. Ortega could come back, I guess. but Rei, her crazy henchman, and Poe are dead, and Elliot's plot is wrapped up, as is the Bancrofts'.


I want James Purefoy and Kristin Lehman to show up next season and have it explained that Laurens and Miriam had all their clone sleeves confiscated and it was a boon for all the unlucky stiffs because no other Meth would touch them

ATP_Power
Jun 12, 2010

The mind of man may be a curse, but what would I be without it?


Hammerstein posted:

Finished the series today but never read the book. Loved the Bladerunner-esque settings and visuals, but ultimately I think that a lot of potential was squandered. Meths getting bored in a universe where interstellar travel is a possibility and instead getting their kick in a flying snuff-brothel seems dumb
Technically interstellar travel is possible, but you can only go anywhere quickly between already inhabited worlds (If I remember right it takes "several lifetimes" to travel physically to Earth from Harlan's world) so even a Meth can't hop on a ship and go exploring the galaxy Star Trek style, since star hopping takes an absurd amount of time. So if you want to explore the stars, you're talking years and years of solitude on a ship with nothing but what you bring with you. Given the types of Meth shown in the show, that doesn't sound like something they'd be interested in.

Young Freud
Nov 25, 2006



ATP_Power posted:

Technically interstellar travel is possible, but you can only go anywhere quickly between already inhabited worlds (If I remember right it takes "several lifetimes" to travel physically to Earth from Harlan's world) so even a Meth can't hop on a ship and go exploring the galaxy Star Trek style, since star hopping takes an absurd amount of time. So if you want to explore the stars, you're talking years and years of solitude on a ship with nothing but what you bring with you. Given the types of Meth shown in the show, that doesn't sound like something they'd be interested in.

More likely spaceships would be "virtual", crewed entirely by stacks and robots, with 3D printers to print out sleeves, food, equipment, etc. when they actually get there. And that's not if the range is short enough that it would be easier to needlecast to another planet or habitat.

Speaking of 3D printers, you know the whole reason that organic 3D printer is probably illegal is that it's an IP thing as well as Psychasec doesn't want the competition. This show is a Rentism dystopia, like In Time.

Moreau
Jul 26, 2009



I enjoyed the show and was really blown away by Joel and Martha as Kovacs and Ortega. The only major issue I had was the sound mix didn't seem very clear, I had to keep switching subtitles on.

Proteus Jones
Feb 28, 2013



Moreau posted:

I enjoyed the show and was really blown away by Joel and Martha as Kovacs and Ortega. The only major issue I had was the sound mix didn't seem very clear, I had to keep switching subtitles on.

5.1? Your speakers may need calibration. It makes a HUGE difference with 5.1/7.1 setups. Most amplifiers these days have some sort of auto calibration built in where you can place a little condenser mic (my Dennon amp cam with the mic and it has camera mount threading on it) at various listening hotspots while it plays tones across the speakers. Check your manual.

I didn't have any issues with the sound quality when I watched.

Neddy Seagoon
Oct 12, 2012


We've got this thing licked!



Young Freud posted:

More likely spaceships would be "virtual", crewed entirely by stacks and robots, with 3D printers to print out sleeves, food, equipment, etc. when they actually get there. And that's not if the range is short enough that it would be easier to needlecast to another planet or habitat.

Speaking of 3D printers, you know the whole reason that organic 3D printer is probably illegal is that it's an IP thing as well as Psychasec doesn't want the competition. This show is a Rentism dystopia, like In Time.

Regular spaceships are crewed, but the big old colony barges worked exactly like that; They'd land on a planet, sit for YEARS while modelling the environment (seasons, wildlife, etc), before cloning Sleeves and decanting them.

Most Protectorate worlds don't even have spaceships though, because there's zero need to go off-world.

ZorajitZorajit
Sep 15, 2013

No static at all...

Iím still watching the show, even though I canít say Iím enjoying it. I just finished episode 6. Iím hoping the ending was a hallucination, because I donít think Iíve ever seen that actually really happen.

Moreau
Jul 26, 2009



Proteus Jones posted:

5.1? Your speakers may need calibration. It makes a HUGE difference with 5.1/7.1 setups. Most amplifiers these days have some sort of auto calibration built in where you can place a little condenser mic (my Dennon amp cam with the mic and it has camera mount threading on it) at various listening hotspots while it plays tones across the speakers. Check your manual.

I didn't have any issues with the sound quality when I watched.

At the moment Im just using the speakers in the tv itself, so that may have something to do with it. Ill look into upgrading, thanks!

navyjack
Jul 15, 2006

If I win, I get to be a king. If I lose, I get to be a legend!!


Neddy Seagoon posted:

That part never happens in the book. Also Rei is just her own person, Tak's sister is entirely original to the show.


It sort of does, sort of. Remember the UN Judgeís son being a lovely tennis player?

MrMojok
Jan 27, 2011

You really ARE a funny guy!


Has anyone heard how much they spent on this series? Sure does look like a lot of money onscreen.

Avasculous
Aug 30, 2008


Neddy Seagoon posted:

Speaking of that stupid tower, could they have gotten any less subtle about Meths "looking down on people"?


Yeah, somewhere between the meth turning a poor person into a pet snake for show-and-tell and the basement fight to death between poor people, I thought Netflix got a little carried away with that sequence.


Spatula City posted:

Everything is ludicrously on-the-nose in this series, it's kind of great. If there's any complaints I have about it, it's that it sort of loses the plot of the Bancroft mystery, and then belatedly remembers to wrap it up.

Also, jfc Kovacs' sister is just a complete irredeemable demon shitbird.

instead of Kovacs's sister, her backstory in the book was that she was a 'water carrier', a Yakuza enforcer that would go to the homes of debtors with a lead flask of recycled coolant water from reactors and force them to drink it in front of their families. She's proud of this.

Eau de MacGowan
May 12, 2009

Just a poor man's Park Ji Sung

Leapord


james purefoy's dick: it's pretty good

Josh Lyman
May 24, 2009




Eau de MacGowan posted:

james purefoy's dick: it's pretty good
Ron Jeremy would be jealous

LORD OF BOOTY
Feb 11, 2015

THEY MAKE SURE YOU AIN'T BOOTY!!!


joel kinnaman's upper body: it's loving huge good lord how much steroids did this man do

like holy gently caress #fitspo hands down

LORD OF BOOTY
Feb 11, 2015

THEY MAKE SURE YOU AIN'T BOOTY!!!


seriously what the gently caress I'm not used to the guy who played remake Robocop looking like he can bench a loving car

Josh Lyman
May 24, 2009




I didnít see the Robocop remake but I did watch The Killing s1 (did he and Miriamís actress hook up in that?) so the first scene after he gets decanted and we see him in the shower from the back, it came across like cartoon levels of jacked

LORD OF BOOTY
Feb 11, 2015

THEY MAKE SURE YOU AIN'T BOOTY!!!


Josh Lyman posted:

I didnít see the Robocop remake but I did watch The Killing s1 (did he and Miriamís actress hook up in that?) so the first scene after he gets decanted and we see him in the shower from the back, it came across like cartoon levels of jacked

he's like a loving real-life Rob Liefeld character in that scene jesus christ on a bike

LesterGroans
Jun 9, 2009

It's funny...

You were so scary at night.


It's hilarious because his whole vibe is a kinda skeazy burnout, which really works for The Killing and RoboCop, and then in this he has the upper body of an Olympic swimmer.

Teal
Feb 25, 2013

Man, future fucking sucks.


Mooktastical posted:

In the book do they explain how Rei got a hold of a little girl's sleeve? I'm assuming their society has similar rules w/r/t juvenile criminal law, and therefore she's not a long term prisoner. Following from that, I'm guessing it was some hosed up kidnapping/body purge operation just so she could mind gently caress Tak for a 5 minute conversation.

I just presumed she had it lab grown like all the "regular" clones of herself? Did the show ever imply any rules against that? I thought it was just prohibitively expensive, and I don't even see a reason why would it need to be explicitly illegal if you didn't use it specifically to impersonate somebody else.

Teal
Feb 25, 2013

Man, future fucking sucks.


Hammerstein posted:

Meths getting bored in a universe where interstellar travel is a possibility

Keep in mind even needlecast ie the "teleporting just the soul" option is still limited to speed of light so a there-and-back trip to Proxima Centuari from Earth; the closest star to our solar system, still means you miss out 9 years of what's happening on Earth. Sure, it will seem like an instant to you, but I imagine that Meths will be in constant fear that somebody will pull the carpet from beneath them at home and topple their empire or whatever, so I doubt many of them will be willing to actually make the trip.

Lets face it; how many of the super-rich on Earth are any form of adventureous with their time and money? And that's people who have a reason to hurry.

And finally, we're only shown a small slice of the world; there might be thousands of Meths pioneering galaxy in robots or bzip bzapping around worlds; they aren't that relevant to the story because they aren't the ones causing trouble.

Syzygy Stardust
Mar 1, 2017



Pretty sure needlecasting in the books is a Martian derived FTL tech. Otherwise the envoys as counterinsurgents beamed in would never work. Plus Kovacs stack was on Harlanís world before being beamed to earth in response to Bancroftís death. Years did not pass between these events.

Neddy Seagoon
Oct 12, 2012


We've got this thing licked!



Syzygy Stardust posted:

Pretty sure needlecasting in the books is a Martian derived FTL tech. Otherwise the envoys as counterinsurgents beamed in would never work. Plus Kovacs stack was on Harlanís world before being beamed to earth in response to Bancroftís death. Years did not pass between these events.

Yup. A needlecast is called that because it is an insanely tiny window through hyperspace that they can "only" manage to push a high-bandwidth signal through. And even that takes some obscenely expensive power requirements.

Woden
May 6, 2006


Also Kovacs woke up after 250 years and seemed to fit in fine, society seems to be stagnating. Like they haven't even upgraded stacks in all that time, I'm sure even a few decades on a ship wouldn't be that big of a deal.

Neddy Seagoon
Oct 12, 2012


We've got this thing licked!



Woden posted:

Also Kovacs woke up after 250 years and seemed to fit in fine, society seems to be stagnating. Like they haven't even upgraded stacks in all that time, I'm sure even a few decades on a ship wouldn't be that big of a deal.

Earth isn't a gleaming uber-futuristic metropolis in the books; It was, once, but now it's a backwards backwater in all but name. A whole lot of people got the hell out of Dodge on the Colony Barges centuries ago, and the only people who've stayed are the ones that wanted to or had no choice like the Catholics. The only real thing of note is the UN Protectorate is headquartered there, and a big general tone of Bay City is a metropolis whose time has well and truly passed.

Kovacs fitting in fine is because he's an Envoy. They are psychologically broken and rebuilt to be Zen Masters of Death. They expect nothing, assume nothing, just sit quietly and pay attention while things just sift into place of their own accord. Give them a few weeks and you'd never know they weren't born on whatever world they're currently infiltrating.

As for the 250 years thing in general, the books make note of how hard it is to adapt to life after a long stint in Storage, let alone being in the body of a stranger, and the BIG punishment to drop on major crimes is 200 years in Storage (the "you're going down FOREVER!" in the series is just childishly weak writing). And you gotta really gently caress up royal to get that. The only higher punishment is Erasure, and you need to do something spectacularly illegal like duplicating yourself to earn that one.

Teal
Feb 25, 2013

Man, future fucking sucks.


Okay thanks for clarifying the needlecast being FTL; nevermind that then.

On the note of erasure for double sleeving; how exactly did the show justify Kovacs got away with it with zero trouble whatsoever, only having to concede one of the copies had to die? I could imagine some leeway about it if they could prove all the insane Rei poo poo but specifically in case of "iced forever" terrorist that only got pardoned by corrupt meddling of a Meth that just got jailed as well? I mean, how did Kovacs get away with everything? Just in the finale;

- double sleeving (apparently grounds for real execution even in regular people, not even space terrorists?)
- creating a fast-bake clone of himself on an illegal 3D printer stolen from police evidence storage
- killing (even if only soft-killing) like, million people with the authority of ??? (I guess that one can be written off as a bright AnCap future of very broad definition of "self defense" considering how easily could Poe turn the lobby into a killing ground)
- illegal gun ownership
- messed with active investigation in like, million ways

I'm sure I'm missing quite a few

Philthy
Jan 28, 2003



Finished the series. Overall a big thumbs up, but the ending disappointed me quite a bit, almost to the point of ruining the show entirely. Almost every Netflix series I've seen has an absolutely solid first 7 or so episodes, then it just goes to poo poo. Every. loving. Series. Do they run out of funding? Do the directors just get bored and give up? Do the writers just suck buttholes? This show would have been a perfect 10 if it was just the murder mystery, and instead, it veered off to this dudes sister who is just insufferable to watch, and the big sex island showdown was facepalm bad.

Did they learn nothing from the first season of Stranger Things? That was the last perfect series they showed that ended when it should have. Luke Cage, Iron Fist, ST2, Defenders, this, everything, way too many episodes for the amount of story that needs to be told.

Philthy fucked around with this message at Feb 6, 2018 around 15:29

Phi230
Feb 2, 2016

There all is aching


The show gets super cheesy toward the end

Hexel
Nov 18, 2011



I just started watching this last night and really enjoy the atmosphere and imagery. The plotline so far is kinda meh but Kovacs is an interesting enough character to keep me engrossed.

DarkCrawler
Apr 6, 2009


Show was pretty good. Kinda confusing at times but so was the book. Expanse did set the bar pretty high in sci-fi book to TV adaptations by actually being superior to the source material in many ways.

nessin
Feb 7, 2010


Teal posted:

Okay thanks for clarifying the needlecast being FTL; nevermind that then.

On the note of erasure for double sleeving; how exactly did the show justify Kovacs got away with it with zero trouble whatsoever, only having to concede one of the copies had to die? I could imagine some leeway about it if they could prove all the insane Rei poo poo but specifically in case of "iced forever" terrorist that only got pardoned by corrupt meddling of a Meth that just got jailed as well? I mean, how did Kovacs get away with everything? Just in the finale;

- double sleeving (apparently grounds for real execution even in regular people, not even space terrorists?)
- creating a fast-bake clone of himself on an illegal 3D printer stolen from police evidence storage
- killing (even if only soft-killing) like, million people with the authority of ??? (I guess that one can be written off as a bright AnCap future of very broad definition of "self defense" considering how easily could Poe turn the lobby into a killing ground)
- illegal gun ownership
- messed with active investigation in like, million ways

I'm sure I'm missing quite a few


Well if we take the modern equivalent one of two things would have happened:

1) The government prosecutor would have cut a deal to forgo prosecution and announced to the public that he'd been arrested, made his plea, and was receiving a slap on the wrist thanks to the contributions he made in the other cases. Also it's hard to say how serious some of his crimes are, for example is double sleeving actually that illegal or just so taboo it's talked about like it. The only real major crime, explicit in the show, I can think of is the stuff in the clinic but if we assume he was good at his job then there probably isn't any connection between him and clinic. Only Ortega and her partner knew that.

2) He'd be arrested, get out on bail, spending the next several months/years living in luxury while an expensive lawyer and the cops (at least presumably they'd be on his side in the end because he'd taken out someone who gave real death to a cop and saved another one) throw every roadblock at the legal battle until eventually the case is thrown out for one reason or another or ruled not guilty.

Boris Galerkin
Dec 17, 2011


Proteus Jones posted:

5.1? Your speakers may need calibration. It makes a HUGE difference with 5.1/7.1 setups. Most amplifiers these days have some sort of auto calibration built in where you can place a little condenser mic (my Dennon amp cam with the mic and it has camera mount threading on it) at various listening hotspots while it plays tones across the speakers. Check your manual.

I didn't have any issues with the sound quality when I watched.

I thought the same about the sound. Iím using the lovely speakers in my TV, Iíll give you that, but every other show Iíve watched is fine and understandably clear. This was the first show Iíve watched with this TV where I had to turn on subtitles just to hear some of the speech.

Ugly In The Morning
Jul 1, 2010


As far as number 1 goes, double sleeving is mentioned a few times as something punishable by erasure, not just being put on ice.

I figure the whole thing was such a giant clusterfuck that involved so many super powerful people, erasing one copy is like a cop tossing somebodyís weed and looking the other way. Except somebody gets RDíd as a result.

He also didnít disrupt an active investigation, the Bancroft case was closed, thatís why he brought Kovacs in at all.

Elendil004
Mar 22, 2003

The prognosis
is not good.



Ending question Isn't the OG Takeshi sleeve from the fight still around? I mean, enough DNA for a clone to be grown?

Rad Russian
Aug 15, 2007

Capitalist pigdogs! Surrender your moneys to the glorious revolution!


Elendil004 posted:

Ending question Isn't the OG Takeshi sleeve from the fight still around? I mean, enough DNA for a clone to be grown?

Yeah and as speculated before that's how they can re-use the actor for Season 2.

Elendil004
Mar 22, 2003

The prognosis
is not good.



Rad Russian posted:

Yeah and as speculated before that's how they can re-use the actor for Season 2.

I wouldn't want to lose Kinnamon though, he did a fantastic job.

Avasculous
Aug 30, 2008


nessin posted:


1) The government prosecutor would have cut a deal to forgo prosecution and announced to the public that he'd been arrested, made his plea, and was receiving a slap on the wrist thanks to the contributions he made in the other cases. Also it's hard to say how serious some of his crimes are, for example is double sleeving actually that illegal or just so taboo it's talked about like it. The only real major crime, explicit in the show, I can think of is the stuff in the clinic but if we assume he was good at his job then there probably isn't any connection between him and clinic. Only Ortega and her partner knew that.


I think its less that he was good about cleaning up his fingerprints and more that the clinic was doing so much illegal poo poo that they wouldn't want detectives anywhere near the crime scene. The book is also more explicit about the fact that Kovacs has not one but two meths (Bancroft and Rei) spending a small fortune in cash and influence to keep him out of jail during his investigation.

And double sleeving is super illegal, punished by mandatory erasure. I think the only other crime they mention that gets that is unauthorized possession of a viral WMD.

navyjack
Jul 15, 2006

If I win, I get to be a king. If I lose, I get to be a legend!!


Avasculous posted:


And double sleeving is super illegal, punished by mandatory erasure. I think the only other crime they mention that gets that is unauthorized possession of a viral WMD.

Which crime he also commits. Book Tak gives no fucks. Iím 3 eps from the end so I donít know if itís the same in the show yet.

Kegslayer
Jul 23, 2007


Neddy Seagoon posted:

Hang on, wait, flag on the play;


She read the book, and she still didn't get the point of it.

No I'm pretty sure she gets it.

Kinnaman did a really good job but you could just as easily had Will Yun Lee play Kovacs for the entire show without losing anything. Same applies for Ghost in the Shell.

Just lol at the people getting offended by this type of criticism though especially for a show like this.

DarkCrawler posted:

Show was pretty good. Kinda confusing at times but so was the book. Expanse did set the bar pretty high in sci-fi book to TV adaptations by actually being superior to the source material in many ways.

The Expanse has the benefit of actually having the authors writing and producing the show.

I have no idea where they're going to take season two though. The second book in the trilogy is more Aliens than another cyberpunk noir story and I think a flat out adaption would lose a lot of the things that makes this series so good.

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Young Freud
Nov 25, 2006



So, in honor of Altered Carbon premiere on Netflix, Posthuman Studios is having a sale on DriveThru RPG for Eclipse Phase (first edition) for $1.10

http://drivethrurpg.com/product/641...iliate_id=77000

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