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My personal explanation for the stacks is that they grow with the wearer because they are made with ~magic alien biotech~. All the stacks we’ve seen are the same size, but I don’t think we saw any children’s stacks. There is still no excuse not to implant them at birth. Also, I want to say that immortality is cool & good and Quell’s plot to end everyone’s live at one hundred years of age is tantamount to murder on a scale greater than Hitler.
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Feb 8, 2018 03:37
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Neddy Seagoon posted:What you're saying is every sword in the movies should be unique works of art just because they're onscreen right down to that of a mere footsoldier's. you're missing the dude's point with the sword analogy. a random footsoldier's sword can totally look like the second example, because there's no real importance to it. but if an item has some kind of unique importance, such as being a main protagonist's sword with an elucidated history behind it, it deserves a memorable design.
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Feb 8, 2018 03:39
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LORD OF BOOTY posted:you're missing the dude's point with the sword analogy. a random footsoldier's sword can totally look like the second example, because there's no real importance to it. but if an item has some kind of unique importance, such as being a main protagonist's sword with an elucidated history behind it, it deserves a memorable design. No, I got the exact analogy and explained they had the wrong end of the stick; Stacks are meant to be on the footsoldier end of the scale; Everyone has one and they're all identical.
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Feb 8, 2018 03:42
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pile of brown posted:Literally nobody did this, they just said that complaining about "whitewashing" a character who is explicitly and repeatedly described as a white man is loving dumb. Actually a shitload of people around the internet have been up in arms about this to the point where you even have Kalogridis come out and acknowledge that it's a problem but point out that she tried to offset this by having Kovacs also portrayed by two Asian men. They've already changed so much about Kovacs from his personality to his history but you still have people believe that changing the colour of his skin would somehow ruin the show. Gyges posted:I had read a review or two about the show that complained that the show took it's technology and came to the conclusion that immortality was bad. Having watched it, to me it seems that the show was pretty clear that the issue was rich assholes becoming too powerful and that power leading to corruption. Even good people are corrupted, because the limitless power is just too much. The show even goes out of it's way to give a voice to several people who are in favor of death, and to varying degrees shows how that's not the answer to the problem. I was surprised by this because the book takes a completely different approach to some of these issues. In the book Quellcrist isn't anti technology but flat out anti Protectorate because she believes that they're the ones holding humanity back. The books point to capitalism and fundamentalism (like Islam) being the main issue. It's basically the system that is broken and in some way, even the rich assholes at the top are unable to break out of their gilded cages. Kovacs is all about smashing revolutions and deriding the leadership of a revolution but at the same time, there are certain places where he does want to smash the state and bring out the guillotine. Especially with how the trilogy ends, power by itself isn't seen to be a problem. You could give society infinite technological power and a capitalist society will stay right where they are building centralised power structures on the ruins of the old. The rich and powerful will continue to enrich themselves before they all just stagnate while a, I don't know you'd call it but a socialist/transhuman society will use those same powers and go out exploring into the stars, build wormholes, discover FTL travel etc. FuriousGeorge posted:And have orbital alien laser turrets occasionally lighting up the sky. Are they even going to bring this stuff in? The show seems to have made a deliberate choice in cutting a lot of the Protectorate and the alien stuff out in favour of just focusing on the technology. It's a pretty big jump to go from a noir story to the next two books about aliens or space wars.
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Feb 8, 2018 04:07
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Kegslayer posted:Actually a shitload of people around the internet have been up in arms about this to the point where you even have Kalogridis come out and acknowledge that it's a problem but point out that she tried to offset this by having Kovacs also portrayed by two Asian men. Because the whole point underlined, writ large in neon letters, is he is no longer the man he was. He was an Asian person and now he's white, and on an entirely different planet. About as far removed from the man he was as he can get. And that is how it is for everyone. People are only jumping on this because A; it's the internet, and B; Ghost in the Shell raised a big stink for it's rampant stupidity and now people think they have a fun opportunity to get angry again because, again, it's the internet. Neddy Seagoon fucked around with this message at 04:18 on Feb 8, 2018 |
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Feb 8, 2018 04:14
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Kegslayer posted:Actually a shitload of people around the internet have been up in arms about this to the point where you even have Kalogridis come out and acknowledge that it's a problem but point out that she tried to offset this by having Kovacs also portrayed by two Asian men. I think the problem is that while there is an actual issue here that should be talked about, i.e. there is no reason that the Reiger sleeve needs to be white, a lot of the complaints on the front went a little too overboard. Comparing this to Johanson Major is willfully ignoring any nuance in the issue and dishonestly hand waving huge differences. Altered Carbon had 3 Asian guys an a White dude act the part of Kovacs while also explicitly stating and showing other versions. It also clearly grounds the character as originally being Asian. Meanwhile Ghost In The Shell did just enough legwork to "justify" the Asian lead being a blond White lady to barely count as fig leaf.
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Feb 8, 2018 04:27
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Kegslayer posted:
Quellcrist is explicitly pro-stack technology, IIRC. Considers it a vital tool of the revolution. An annoying pattern I've noticed with TV/Hollywood sci-fi is a knee-jerk tendency to brand any technology that makes someone superhuman, especially immortal, as coming at a terrible cost. Immortals always wish they could get cancer and die miserably after 70 years, so that "their life would have meaning". It's almost like writers feel the need to reassure viewers that superhuman characters are actually worse off. I liked BSG a lot at first because it seemed to eschew this- the Cylons reveled in the fact that they were effectively immortal and all of the advantages that came with it. And then they hit season 4 and bam, Cylons nobly sacrifice their immortality so that their lives could be short and meaningful. So one of the things that I liked about Altered Carbon was that the protagonist not only embraces the technology the way most of us would any medical advance, but views people who reject it for themselves as naive and people who reject it for others as despicable. It was disappointing if unsurprising that they made Kovacs ultimately go (slightly) antivaxxer just like all the others. quote:[spoiler] I'm disappointed that they cut a lot of the world building stuff but found room for side plots I didn't care about, like Elliot's and Ortega's families. Although skinhead grandma was amazing. In fairness though, as much as I liked the sequels, that genre jump was pretty jarring for the books too. I wouldn't mind if they just stuck with the cyberpunk noir instead, provided Morgan was involved.
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Feb 8, 2018 04:41
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Wasn't the Unsettlement (which happened 400+ years before Tak was born) the specific reason for the Protectorate setting up the Envoy Corps?
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Feb 8, 2018 04:45
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Avasculous posted:Quellcrist is explicitly pro-stack technology, IIRC. Considers it a vital tool of the revolution. Multi-century subjective lifespans aren't even common in the books, and have a far more interesting take on why most people aren't Mething their way through the centuries in a constant parade of Sleeves; Mental exhaustion. Most people will live out their life in their birthsleeve, maybe pay out on a second, and after that happily go into Storage because they don't want to go around a third time. Spun up for holidays and birthdays in VR or a brief rental sleeve to spend time with the family, and that's it. It also tells you a lot about what you're dealing with when facing people like the Bancrofts; They have to have an insane degree of mental fortitude to want to just keep going on and on.
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Feb 8, 2018 05:05
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Avasculous posted:Although skinhead grandma was amazing. I don’t know who that actor was, but I hope he has a successful career because he was absolutely fantastic.
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Feb 8, 2018 05:06
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Proteus Jones posted:I don’t know who that actor was, but I hope he has a successful career because he was absolutely fantastic.  Matt Biedel. Certainly sold that new look
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Feb 8, 2018 05:11
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How come none of the whitewashing complainers note that it’s problematic to have Korean actors portray the (half-ish) Japanese Kovacs?
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Feb 8, 2018 05:12
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navyjack posted:How come none of the whitewashing complainers note that it’s problematic to have Korean actors portray the (half-ish) Japanese Kovacs? Because Asians all look the same right?
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Feb 8, 2018 05:26
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One thing the show hasn't done much with that I really liked in the books was that the sleeves could also vary wildly in ability. They mention it but never really dwell on it, but Ryker's sleeve has some neurochem poo poo that improves reflexes quite a bit, as well as possibly some strength enhancement. At one point, Kovacs gets sleeved in some super-elite custom-made techninja and just loving tears everyone up. He adapts really quickly to it thanks to being an Envoy and knowing how to fight in a myriad of bodies, but its also a sleeve that's preternaturally strong, fit, and comes with a whole suite of massive combat drugs and poo poo. A lot of the sleeves Kovacs ends up in have some degree of combat enhancement effects, but I'm pretty sure at one point he ends up in a sleeve that doesn't and he gets pretty badly hosed up because of it. Also, the sleeve he's in when he gets tortured has a massively increased sensory suite, iirc. Neddy Seagoon posted:Multi-century subjective lifespans aren't even common in the books, and have a far more interesting take on why most people aren't Mething their way through the centuries in a constant parade of Sleeves; Mental exhaustion. Most people will live out their life in their birthsleeve, maybe pay out on a second, and after that happily go into Storage because they don't want to go around a third time. Spun up for holidays and birthdays in VR or a brief rental sleeve to spend time with the family, and that's it. Ravenfood fucked around with this message at 05:48 on Feb 8, 2018 |
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Feb 8, 2018 05:35
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Ravenfood posted:One thing the show hasn't done much with that I really liked in the books was that the sleeves could also vary wildly in ability. They mention it but never really dwell on it, but Ryker's sleeve has some neurochem poo poo that improves reflexes quite a bit, as well as possibly some strength enhancement. At one point, Kovacs gets sleeved in some super-elite custom-made techninja and just loving tears everyone up. He adapts really quickly to it thanks to being an Envoy and knowing how to fight in a myriad of bodies, but its also a sleeve that's preternaturally strong, fit, and comes with a whole suite of massive combat drugs and poo poo. A lot of the sleeves Kovacs ends up in have some degree of combat enhancement effects, but I'm pretty sure at one point he ends up in a sleeve that doesn't and he gets pretty badly hosed up because of it. Also, the sleeve he's in when he gets tortured has a massively increased sensory suite, iirc. He finds a combat sleeve abandoned in a forgotten bunker that has "gecko grip" so he can climb bare walls.
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Feb 8, 2018 05:55
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So something with the third episode is they've completely gotten Betathanatine wrong. Especially considering they got the street name right; It's not a sedative or a lethal poison to be stuck in a blade, it's a horrifying mood stabilizer that just makes you feel absolutely amoral. While you're Riding the Reaper you can happily walk through a town kicking puppies and shooting civilians without feeling so much as a pang of guilt. This is also more of a general nitpick, but the Tebbit's also wrong too; The blade's designed so you gotta stab DEEP to get blood in the biocoding runnel and trigger what should be near-instant lethal poison. Keeps the owner from killing themselves with an accidental scratch. Also just the general tone towards death itself is way off; Killing people's still a MAJOR hosed-up thing rather than "ha-ha how QUAINT to see normies die  ", and there's much better entertainment to be had than two normal people killing eachother; Freak Fights. Why have two average people beat eachother to death when you can have custom-grown/enhanced sleeves into literal Hulks and have them brawl in an arena on Pay-Per-View? The big thug with the exoskeleton arms is supposed to be one, incidentally.
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Feb 8, 2018 06:16
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Neddy Seagoon posted:The big thug with the exoskeleton arms is supposed to be one, incidentally. That spindly thing was an entirely unconvincing prop.
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Feb 8, 2018 06:34
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Neddy Seagoon posted:Also just the general tone towards death itself is way off; Killing people's still a MAJOR hosed-up thing rather than "ha-ha how QUAINT to see normies die Episode 4 and it's consequences seems to match the idea that killing people was a big deal. First time we saw Tak specifically headshot the poo poo out of everyone and leave no survivors, although the AI hotel lobby scene was kind of the same thing - I don't think any of the russian gang survived, an entire torture hospital with indirect assailants and outright civilians was way more hosed up
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Feb 8, 2018 06:59
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Lady Galaga posted:Episode 4 and it's consequences seems to match the idea that killing people was a big deal. First time we saw Tak specifically headshot the poo poo out of everyone and leave no survivors, although the AI hotel lobby scene was kind of the same thing - I don't think any of the russian gang survived, an entire torture hospital with indirect assailants and outright civilians was way more hosed up That because he RD'ed over a dozen people and walked off with a head. I meant more the attitude of "woah, hey, a Meth kills someone but gets them a new sleeve, it's all good!"  Speaking of episode 4; The whole "YOU MUST BECOME NEO" thing in VR was stupid as hell. The whole point of VR torture is it's inescapable; You are separated from your sleeve, and they can do whatever the gently caress they want to your psyche in a sim. You die, they reset and start over. Repeatedly. Even if you go nuts, they'll just run psycho-surgery to fix your mind and start again until you break. It's not even a hard thing to bring in line with the book's version and what the whole lesson was about dealing with being tortured in VR; Work out what they want and lie your way the hell out if you can. The only difference is Kovacs starts his "I AM A PROTECTORATE OFFICER" tirade while inside VR, scaring the interrogators enough to pull him out. I kinda like the book's version better of him going back later to deliberately murder everyone in the Wei Clinic as a personal errand, but for timing in a tv series it's still a pretty good shootout. Also to what others were saying; Skinhead Grandma was indeed amazing  .
Neddy Seagoon fucked around with this message at 10:50 on Feb 8, 2018 |
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Feb 8, 2018 10:48
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navyjack posted:How come none of the whitewashing complainers note that it’s problematic to have Korean actors portray the (half-ish) Japanese Kovacs? Because he only thing they care about is the actor not being white.
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Feb 8, 2018 11:24
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Clearly the only good solution would have been to make Kovacs resleeve as a black man and make a whole lot of extremely inappropriate penis size jokes.
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Feb 8, 2018 11:57
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Quick question. Does the scene from the book where Kovacs is transferred to a woman’s body, and then tortured for days, happen in the series? I don’t mind fighting violence but torture repels me. I don’t want to watch that (or start my wife watching it and then that pops up) unless it is far milder than the book version. Feel free to provide spoilers if required.
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Feb 8, 2018 12:02
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isoprenaline posted:Quick question. No, they don’t sexually assault a young girl on screen. Joel Kinnaman is the only actor who plays Kovacs in the Wei Clinic virtual torture scenes.
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Feb 8, 2018 12:10
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Teal posted:Clearly the only good solution would have been to make Kovacs resleeve as a black man. Supposedly in the second book he has a black sleeve at one point.
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Feb 8, 2018 12:23
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Ora Tzo posted:Supposedly in the second book he has a black sleeve at one point. Actually he's black for the entire book.
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Feb 8, 2018 13:00
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Platystemon posted:No, they don’t sexually assault a young girl on screen. Joel Kinnaman is the only actor who plays Kovacs in the Wei Clinic virtual torture scenes. Thanks
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Feb 8, 2018 13:04
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Avasculous posted:It was disappointing if unsurprising that they made Kovacs ultimately go (slightly) antivaxxer just like all the others. How so? His entire plan is to save his sister by using the available tech to give her a couple centuries time out, forcing her to once again be "normal". The overriding push of the show is that the tech isn't actually a problem, it's money and power that corrupt. The Meths are bad not because they're immortal, it's because they're immoral.
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Feb 8, 2018 16:25
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Platystemon posted:No, they don’t sexually assault a young girl on screen. Joel Kinnaman is the only actor who plays Kovacs in the Wei Clinic virtual torture scenes. tbf in the book it's not child. It's small statured woman of around 20, if I recall correctly. I haven't done a full re-read, but I had to recently look up the passage for someone else.
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Feb 8, 2018 16:36
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when a person double-sleeves do they just copy the stack?
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Feb 8, 2018 20:35
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Constant posted:when a person double-sleeves do they just copy the stack? That's what it looks like. I'd like to see that explored down the line. Like what if you're copied without knowing and run into yourself at some point? How do you prove who's data is the original?
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Feb 8, 2018 20:37
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And what if you met a younger, idealistic version of yourself sent to kill you.
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Feb 8, 2018 20:43
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Syzygy Stardust posted:And what if you met a younger, idealistic version of yourself sent to kill you. Book 2 or 3 deals with that according to what I read
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Feb 8, 2018 20:45
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Rhyno posted:That's what it looks like. I'd like to see that explored down the line. Like what if you're copied without knowing and run into yourself at some point? How do you prove who's data is the original? Syzygy Stardust posted:And what if you met a younger, idealistic version of yourself sent to kill you. 
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Feb 8, 2018 20:46
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Rhyno posted:Book 2 or 3 deals with that according to what I read I think 
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Feb 8, 2018 20:53
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Kegslayer posted:Being in another body is a well established science fiction trope and a whole bunch of movies and television series have been able to portray the same idea in different ways. ethnicity hardly means anything anything anymore, meths keep on inhabiting the same white bodies, if anything it's amongst underclass where ethnicity doesn't matter so much anymore.
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Feb 8, 2018 21:15
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Fututor Magnus posted:ethnicity hardly means anything anything anymore, meths keep on inhabiting the same white bodies, if anything it's amongst underclass where ethnicity doesn't matter so much anymore. Except apparently there's still nazi skinheads sooooo
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Feb 8, 2018 21:29
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Yeah if anything you'd think that it being possible to be placed in a ...black body... would make racists double down on that poo poo. Forget religious coding, there would absolutely DEFINIETLY be "to be placed in WHITE BODY ONLY" coding.
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Feb 8, 2018 21:33
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Neddy Seagoon posted:Stack technology is entirely a human creation in the books, and the mundanity of the design is on purpose; Sleeving isn't some scary new technology, it's treated like it's as old and commonplace as the telephone. The strangeness/wonder comes from that; "Here in your hand is a tiny little mundane cylinder, containing an entire human life." i never read the book, so i can't judge too much on that conception of the technology, thematically it makes sense, a mundane tecnology conceived by human minds capable of so much. but, in fact, it's origin as a elder civilization technology makes sense to me too, that's because i'm interested in neuroscience and the fact that we know essentially jack poo poo about consciousness, and what exactly makes us "us" in our brains. it's humbling to consider that perhaps even in the far future we wouldn't understand that, and that makes the themes of loving around with the very fundamentals of human identity, in that we're one mind rooted in one body, without understanding how it all works. and it thus made sense to me that humans have to reverse engineer a technology from an ancient alien civilization that understood consciousness better than we do. also, if I'm not misremembering, didn't the exposition at the beginning say that the stacks are made of an alien substance called "living metal" or something they got from the elders? if so, it is probably implanted in a smaller form and "grows" somehow into its later form. idk, maybe if i read the books i'd prefer its version of the technology, but goons seem to call it boring, which seems a shame.
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Feb 8, 2018 22:09
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Slime posted:Except apparently there's still nazi skinheads sooooo except they're nazi skinheads that might very well be inhabited by sweet old abuelas.
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Feb 8, 2018 22:10
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Slime posted:Except apparently there's still nazi skinheads sooooo that i honestly never understood, what's the point of even being a racialist in that future where the most masculine aryan physique can contain the mind and personality of, say, a black muslim woman. but there are people who think that racism should have died out by 2018, so there's that. being a racist in this future still seems very weird and would require a whole bunch of cognitive dissonance to swallow.
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Feb 8, 2018 22:13
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