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Ugly In The Morning
Jul 1, 2010


Did they (book stuff, halfway in E2) combine the Quellists and Envoys? In the first episode it seemed like they were going with the book where the envoys were tools of the protectorate, but E2 has the museum talk about Envoy terrorists with a thing showing Quellcrist. . I read the books a long time ago so I may be misremembering.

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Ugly In The Morning
Jul 1, 2010


Moose-Alini posted:

Yeah I thought I remembered them being ISP agents, but eh doesn't really matter. If they do the other books it means even less, who knows. Does kinda change his character though.

He does mention in ep 2 that he did work for the ISP for a long time so they did keep that part of his character intact.

Man, I really hope they do Woken Furies next. I liked that book more than Altered Carbon.

Ugly In The Morning
Jul 1, 2010


Loezi posted:

Hadn't read the books, binged thought the whole show today. Very good, if a bit graphic. Got that Expanse S1 feeling of a well developed world, and I really enjoyed how thoroughly the scifi gimmick (stacks) was explored.

Check out the books for sure. They do a really good job of having stacks really affect the plot and characters instead of being worldbuilding fluff.

E: Ep 4 holy crap that ending where he gets up and wastes everyone with that PJ Harvey song was amazing

Ugly In The Morning fucked around with this message at Feb 3, 2018 around 00:01

Ugly In The Morning
Jul 1, 2010


Just got to E7. This show rules. The action scenes are way better than you’d expect for a Netflix show. They’re really dynamic and the hits and gunshots have a really nice sense of weight and power to them.

I also like how it leans into the veneer of trashiness the book has. It didn’t just put a layer of grime on Blade Runner’s aesthetic, the people here are scuzzy as hell and I love it.

Ugly In The Morning
Jul 1, 2010


Blackchamber posted:

There are people religiously opposed to being re-sleeved. It seems like people for the most part can't afford to be re-sleeved even if they wanted to. Do they explain why (or is it in the books) why having a cortical stack is mandatory to be put in at the age of one?

Wouldn't it be a waste of time and money and effort to put something in everyone that so few will even be able to make use of that aren't living in the clouds 1%'ers?

In addition to the stuff mentioned above, prison has been replaced by putting the stack on ice. People need stacks to get put in prison/have their bodies leased out while they’re in the cyber clink.

Also, the only FTL travel in the series uses “needlecasting”, which transmits the consciousness of someone to a body present on the colonized world. That colony had to be set up by cryo’d people taking the slow boat, though.

E: Plus, sometimes cost isn’t a factor. Look at the little girl in ep 1. Sure, odds are they’ll give you a crappy sleeve because it’s all the have on hand, but if you get got the government can give you a freebie.

Ugly In The Morning fucked around with this message at Feb 3, 2018 around 06:44

Ugly In The Morning
Jul 1, 2010


ZorajitZorajit posted:

The noir detective stuff I don’t mind, but there just was enough of it for me because of how much ~worldbuilding~ (ugh) they crammed in. I don’t need to know that there are 1000-ft tall alien trees somewhere. Just show me the cool tree, have a character say”it’s alive, you know?” And be done with it. Word building is a fun, immensely masturbatory exercise of genre writers that needs to stay in the background notes and obsessed wiki pages.

Anyway, I’m not in the mood to rag on something other folks are enjoying. I’ll watch another episode or two to give it a fair shake. Hardly be fair to judge TNG by its first episode, y’know.
If it makes you feel any better about it, the second and third book (especially second) heavily use the alien stuff for the plot, so they’re likely more setting it up now so it doesn’t feel like they’re pulling it out of their rear end later.

Teal posted:

. I also can't shake the feeling that the book had a whole chapter/arc about resolution 653 which was cut from the show yet a lot of the dialogue/story relied on it as being a thing so it felt weird with everyone referencing something super pivotal to the story while you only got to know what it was from by-the-ways.

It’s been a while since I read the book, but if I remember right, the resolution 653 stuff is handled exactly the same way. If anything, it’s more prominent here. If they spend too much time focusing on something like that it ends up making the solution to the murder a bit too obvious.

Ugly In The Morning
Jul 1, 2010


And “you’ll miss out on x number of years, and wake up in a body that is unlikely to be your own” sounds pretty drat punishing to me.

Ugly In The Morning
Jul 1, 2010



I liked the noir cyberpunk stuff, but Broken Angels going from that to a War-movie western before going totally nuts with (book spoiler) alien stuff was amazing.

Ugly In The Morning
Jul 1, 2010


Why would you need indentured servants when you have AI and robots are a thing?

Ugly In The Morning
Jul 1, 2010


Bobbin Threadbare posted:

As I recall, the book explains when it introduces the hotel that there was a human-robot war a few hundred years ago and the humans won. The Hendrix/Poe survived by buying itself out and keeping to itself.

What's kind of ironic is that AI eventually won, since the moment you leave your original meat brain you qualify as an artificial intelligence.

Nope, no human-robot War.

quote:

“Archive précis I ran on the way over here says it got done a couple of centuries back, when the corporate wars turned nasty. Makes sense. With all that poo poo breaking loose, a lot of buildings were retooling to cope. Course, most of the companies went under shortly afterwards with the trading crash, so no one ever got around to passing a decommissioning bill. The Hendrix upgraded to artificial-intelligence status instead and bought itself out.”

Three cheers for kindle search!

Ugly In The Morning
Jul 1, 2010


Bobbin Threadbare posted:

Looks like you're right, but the key passage--such as it is--is in the next paragraph.


Skimming the book, it looks like the only reason AI are unpopular is because they're essentially inhuman and it makes people uncomfortable to work with them. Thus they'll only use an AI when absolutely necessary.

Yeah, but I don’t see how that would discount robots for stuff you would use convicts for, especially if it’s not true AI. It’s not like they have to have a conversation with a mining drone. Do the managers at a Toyota plant talk to the assembly line robots?

Ugly In The Morning
Jul 1, 2010


Stokes posted:

I love this show. It's like if a Syfy original series got to be what it wanted to be instead of what it had to be. Anyone got a youtube link to the More Human than Human cover that played at the end of episode 6?

It’s not on YouTube, but it’s the version by Sune Rose Wagner. I think it may be on Spotify though.


E:nope, it is available exactly nowhere.

Ugly In The Morning fucked around with this message at Feb 3, 2018 around 22:58

Ugly In The Morning
Jul 1, 2010


Strom Cuzewon posted:

The change that most irritates me is a really minor one in ep 2: he buys all his guns from a blackmarket dealer

In the book he goes to a swanky walnut walled establishment, where a very dapper synth sells him perfectly legal hyper-cyanide tipped knives, and a mag-flechette with a spare battery and "a charger compatible with all standard household outlets"

It gave a really nice civilised veneer to the dystopia, and made it a lot more than a generic gritty cyberpunk.

If they had gotten Peter Serafinowicz to basically reprise his role from John Wick 2 they could have put that scene on screen perfectly.

Ugly In The Morning
Jul 1, 2010


PST posted:

I'm really split on this and it kind of feel like a half-season of excellence and then a lot of 'err, wait, what'. Will also caveat as being a fan of the book(s) which is almost certainly colouring my viewing. While I don't love Rei being his sister and was certainly a big switch, it didn't distract from the overall plot but made it far more personal for him The virtual erasure of Envoys was just weird. On the one hand you had Kovacs voiceover doing a lot of talking about Envoys, and some snippets of the new version in training, on the other it took away the mythology of them. No need for them to be barred from public service when they're just failed resistance fighters. and on that note, the dramatic reduction of Quelcrist and Quellism was weird. On the one hand she featured far more, especially in his head, on the other her philosophy was pretty much erased. Other than 'living too long is bad' and this switch to her having invented stacks

Music was great, imagery was great. Annoyed they changed the whole 'get guns' scene as I was looking forward to that, and really not sure why they went with the almost generic backroom dealer rather than the upscale merchant from the books.

Overall decent just some odd choices. Will be interesting to see if they renew and if so how they go with it, suspect the open-hanging ending will be the choice rather than furies/angels.

They did get renewed for S2 already.

I would really rather have Broken Angels next, personally, but if they do something new I would be receptive as long as Richard K Morgan is involved.


Anyone who likes this should go pick up Crysis 2, by the way. It was written by Morgan, and has a lot of the stuff that makes Altered Carbon and the sequels really cool. It’s a solid FPS, too.

Ugly In The Morning
Jul 1, 2010


Englishman alone posted:

Just wondering where the info is on renewal as IGN, Digital spy ect are doing if it gets renewed these are our questions for season 2 type articles?

Looks like the places I read about the renewal at were jumping the gun, my bad.

Ugly In The Morning
Jul 1, 2010


As far as number 1 goes, double sleeving is mentioned a few times as something punishable by erasure, not just being put on ice.

I figure the whole thing was such a giant clusterfuck that involved so many super powerful people, erasing one copy is like a cop tossing somebody’s weed and looking the other way. Except somebody gets RD’d as a result.

He also didn’t disrupt an active investigation, the Bancroft case was closed, that’s why he brought Kovacs in at all.

Ugly In The Morning
Jul 1, 2010


Young Freud posted:

TBF, the skinhead doesn't make a whole lot of sense mostly because, 500 years out, who knows if any of the symbology he's tattooed with even has an impact or importance.

The only reason I could think of is largely because he's easily identifiable as an antisocial scumbag for modern day audiences instead of inventing some new 26th century equivalent of racial supremacy.

Yeah, it’s a little bit of after-the-fact “huh, that’s odd” in exchange for some great visual shorthand that also makes for a hilarious scene.

Ugly In The Morning
Jul 1, 2010


There’s an embedded SoundCloud thing with the More Human than Human cover here, for that guy that was looking for it:

http://www.brooklynvegan.com/raveon...-carbon-listen/

(I hate Brooklyn vegan, but this is the only place that has it. )

The soundtrack is released tomorrow, so hopefully it goes up on Spotify.

Ugly In The Morning
Jul 1, 2010


AbstractNapper posted:

To people who've read the books: Are all three books interesting or is there a steady decline in quality?

I'm interested in picking up the first one, but as I understand it there is a dramatic tonal and genre shift in the subsequent titles and I'm thinking that I wouldn't be a fan of that.

All three books do their own thing. It’s not like he was out of ideas and cranking them out for contract purposes, though, they all explore different aspects of the setting with the genre shift and they’re all really good.

Ugly In The Morning
Jul 1, 2010


Proteus Jones posted:

Agreed. I love all three, but I freely admit to being disappointed they didn't all go for the noir detective vibe. It's kind of a "I love all my kids, but in my heart of hearts I love Altered Carbon the most"

I’m the opposite. I loved the noir detective thing in Altered Carbon, but I felt like I had enough of it in the first book and the series would have lost me if it stuck on the same path.

Ugly In The Morning
Jul 1, 2010


Neddy Seagoon posted:

VR time is expensive. Why spin up someone when you can just store them on the cheap for a century.

One other thing with episode 6, on second thought; Good loving lord did the squander the death of Amun. Oh noooo, a dramatic death of the secondary character who was Ortega's surrogate father figure... Which shouldn't actually mean anything in Altered Carbon. The writers really do not grasp the whole point of Stacks, because I don't think we've had one death so far that wasn't Real Death. Bring him back in a new sleeve, and gasp, we'd have something interesting for the audience to discuss about resleeving someone they've known for half the series.

Yeah, I will say the series has a major hardon for people getting RD’d. In the books it mostly comes up as something that’s not done lightly but in this it feels like they blast out stacks more often than not.

Ugly In The Morning
Jul 1, 2010


FuriousGeorge posted:

No, nor was she anti-resleeving at all.

super pro-resleeving, actually, since it was a way to keep the revolution going forever if it had to.

Ugly In The Morning
Jul 1, 2010


FuriousGeorge posted:

True, poor choice of words on my part. But book Quell is neither anti-resleeving nor anti-immortality, on the contrary it means the Revolution Can Never Die, as Ugly In The Morning said. She's more concerned about systems of power than transhumanism. Also, IIRC her revolution was largely constrained to the context of Harlan's World, which has it's oligarchs but is perhaps young enough where the concept of "Meth" hadn't really taken root yet. Kovacs first learns of the term on Earth.

Yeah, Meths are more an earth thing. Harlan’s world ended up with a ruling dynasty instead of 300+ year old douchebags.

Ugly In The Morning
Jul 1, 2010


withak posted:

I think in the books it says that most people are fine with not being resleeved after living 120 years or whatever and just being spun up for the occasional reunion or birthday party. Meths are basically a tiny minority of sociopaths who think the world can't go on without their presence and are rich enough to make that happen for multiple lifetimes.

Yeah, it’s like that bit in Tom Segura’s standup where he talks about wanting to skip ahead to being old sometimes and shouts “gently caress! How many days are there!?”

Ugly In The Morning
Jul 1, 2010


Quell in the books was a revolutionary on Harlan’s World rebelling against the First Families, who founded the colony and ran it. She was very pro-resleeving indefinitely, since she thought it was a way for revolutionaries to fight forever.

Ugly In The Morning
Jul 1, 2010


FuriousGeorge posted:

Possibly, there's a passage in the book where Kovacs is suddenly struck by how ancient everything feels in the Bancroft residence and it sort of unnerves him. There's a lot of remarks about how old and rundown Earth feels.

The other thing is that in the books, Kovacs wasn’t in storage for 250 years. That’s about how long the entire trilogy takes place over. He’d been on ice for like eight days between that first shootout and being resleeved in Altered Carbon. I think they made it longer so viewers would get the fish out of water aspect better.

Ugly In The Morning
Jul 1, 2010


Harlan’s is more ruling dynasty than meths. The orbitals only blast advanced craft, you can use helicopters there, but jets are out. (That reminds me, were the (ep7) red lasers on the ship with rei and quell supposed to be angelfire lining up?

Woken Furies also takes place like 250 years after Altered Carbon, so setting details there arent really one to one when it comes to advances.

Ugly In The Morning
Jul 1, 2010


McCoy Pauley posted:


Not that I'm sure I'd really trust Morgan's judgment, given his hilarious defense of the sex scenes he writes

Occupational hazard of being a sci fi author.

Ugly In The Morning
Jul 1, 2010


Rhyno posted:

Okay so how did they reach the Protectorate worlds to begin with?

They didn’t, that’s why they’re explained to him on his arrival on earth.

Ugly In The Morning
Jul 1, 2010


Xealot posted:



Apologies if this has been asked: do the books explain how interstellar needlecasting works? Because the show seems to suggest that this is an instantaneous process...you are instantly loaded into a local sleeve worlds away. But if DHF is data, you’re kind of still limited by the speed of light. Shouldn’t needlecasting between worlds still take years?

Needlecasting in the books is some Martian hyperspace stuff. Stacks were a human invention, but a significant amount of their interstellar technology was from Martian stuff they dug up.

Ugly In The Morning
Jul 1, 2010


Neddy Seagoon posted:

More specifically, they can only manage the power requirements to open tiny windows through hyperspace to other worlds. That's why it's called 'needlecasting'.

Also most tech is actually human. Archaeologists can interact with Martian technologies, but it's about the level of mid-series Stargate SG-1 when they were starting to play with their own ships and prototyping tech. They can make Martian tech do stuff, but they can't replicate it or understand the underlying principles.

The majority, if not all of the settled worlds had the legwork done by martians, at least. Which led to some issues, like the Orbitals on Harlan’s world.

Ugly In The Morning
Jul 1, 2010


maskenfreiheit posted:

This has been addressed in other media. Rick and Morty took this to the logical extreme with a society of Ricks. They do all care about themselves, act independently, and some even subjugate the others.

Yeah, but those were all alternate realities, so they weren’t really perfect copies, given that there are a lot of variances between timelines.

E:Fringe was great with the a and b universes. There’s even an episode where two versions of the same person spend a lot of time talking to each other trying to find the point of divergence that made them so different

Ugly In The Morning
Jul 1, 2010


Neddy Seagoon posted:

Nope, human stack in a Synth body. It's generally not something you want to have, because they're considered cheap and nasty. Not to mention needing regular tune-ups.

Yeah, the show did a bad job of making synth sleeves as undesirable as they are in the books, which kind of sucks since lovely synth sleeves answer the question of “what are poor people sleeving into/where do the bodies all come from”? In the books they’re unpleasant to look at in an uncanny valley type way (like the one Lizzy sleeves into, but without being able to shift out of it), and awful to live in (everything tastes kind of like curried sawdust).

Ugly In The Morning
Jul 1, 2010


Didn’t the martians have some kind of remote upload thing going on and didn’t need stacks? It’s been ages since I read the books so I’m probably misremembering.

Ugly In The Morning
Jul 1, 2010


I love how much stuff regarding the Martians is “gently caress if we know” and some guesswork. That ship at the end of book 2 was crazy.

Ugly In The Morning
Jul 1, 2010


Neddy Seagoon posted:

Clones are in the "obscene luxury car" range of expensive. It's actually probably cheaper to get something corporate-made than a clone, just for being mass-produced.


It's not quite that far in the books, that's kinda more of the series going "LOOK HOW NON-METH PEOPLE SUFFER DUE TO STACKS!!! " The books just have insurance on sleeves like for anything else. Generally enough to cover something other than "lol, here's something random from what's on-hand in a prison, have fun being an old woman, little girl!"

Yeah, I really think the book did it better than the show as far as the consequences of stacks for everyday people. To me, it’s more interesting that the reason most people only live twice isn’t because it’s only available to the super rich, but because that’s exhausting. And financing your body, with all the consequences you would expect if you don’t keep current on payments. It makes more sense, too- there’s way more money to be made with high, high volume over only selling to the richest of the rich.

Instead the show went with RDs for everyone with no one blinking an eye, synths being weird shapeshifting superbodies instead of cheap crap for the poor and parole hearings... they really skipped out on a lot of storytelling potential.

Ugly In The Morning
Jul 1, 2010


Torquemada posted:

Re: why Kovacs likes Ortega. In the book he makes some reference to the Ryker sleeve ‘reacting’ on some level to her presence, like a pheromonal thing or something.

It happens a few times in the books. People go from having the hots for each other to nothin’ when they resleeve, and in the last one Kovacs and some other people sleeve into some bioengineered combat sleeves and feel like siblings.

Ugly In The Morning
Jul 1, 2010


Beefeater1980 posted:

IIRC, in the books, nobody showed how tough and serious they were by destroying stacks. Instead they’d kill you, grab the stack, and put you in virtual torture until you go crazy. Much nastier.

It’s also why when Kovacs snaps and starts RDijg people a bunch of characters step back and go “that dude may be a little very unstable.”

Ugly In The Morning
Jul 1, 2010


I enjoyed this show when I watched it, but holy hell the more I think about it the more I get annoyed about changes from the book. I usually roll with adaptations but they pretty much went to make the worst changes at every step.

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Ugly In The Morning
Jul 1, 2010


AlternateAccount posted:

Fair enough on the expense, but you'd think you'd see SOME of it, and the demand for it would probably lead to commoditization pretty quickly. If I were hundreds of years old with unlimited resources, I think I'd probably explore it quite a bit more than we see.

Maybe I need to read the books.

In the books, the biotechnology is just so much better that if you’re shelling out that kind of money, it makes sense to go with the reflexes that make the world go all slow-mo, or can climb walls like a gecko, over some dumb robot leg.

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