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Teal
Feb 25, 2013

Man, future fucking sucks.


Well, I just binged all but last episode last night and then the final first thing in the morning.

Pretty excellent show I think, although I do feel like I missed out by not reading it in the book form instead.

The violence seemed a bit gratuitous at times (seriously, I can't get over the apple-coring weapon of choice), and all the flashbacks seemed to have a weirdly disproportionate B-ish production quality flavor to them compared to the primary arc which was generally pretty drat impressive for Netflix schlock. I also can't shake the feeling that the book had a whole chapter/arc about resolution 653 which was cut from the show yet a lot of the dialogue/story relied on it as being a thing so it felt weird with everyone referencing something super pivotal to the story while you only got to know what it was from by-the-ways. The arc with Lizzie had a similar flavor to it; it wasn't bad, it just felt like the climax in the final episode deserved a lot more preparation to support it.

Generally I have the feeling that they had to cram a story with a lot of poo poo going on and it's just kinda bursting out of the seams of the 10 episodes it's been allotted; maybe if they extended it to just 13 episodes, or split the whole first series in two of 8, with the first ending with Bancroft's murder getting "resolved" by the fakeout with his son being the murderer and the second one immediately starting with WAIT, NO, ACTUALLY and carrying on with the rest, that could have done it? Either way; a longer run could let you have more natural exposition of like, Dimi who was super pivotal but you never really learned much about him other than that he's insane, or Lizzie's reconstruction into a weird not-human, or a bit more actual exploration of Ryker, or heck, a whole episode dedicated to Poe...

Either way; I liked it, I'm glad they've done it, and it definitely stands out as legit good watch next to poo poo like all the MCU trash (which I'm guilty and regretful of consuming en masse as well). I still feel like I should eventually pick up the books (same with The Expanse; this show did feel a lot similar to it in a way).

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Teal
Feb 25, 2013

Man, future fucking sucks.


HardKase posted:

Just finished episode 10 I actually like Bancroft. Sure he killed that girl, but he was under the influence of drugs administered without his consent. I hope they let him off.

I think the point was that as he realized at the end while turning himself in, going "we ruined each other"; the whole problem with the Meths was that over time they all turned into soul-less monsters and that while he maybe was only okay with "fake-killing" strippers, a "get away with surprise sex-murder brothel in the sky" shouldn't exist to begin with even if the usual guarantee says the whores get a new body afterwards.

I'm generally really sick of "death is a natural way of things and shouldn't be interfered with" pseudo philosophy but this story gave some compelling practical arguments for how even if they don't go magically quasi-insane from it, weird evil bourgeoisie not getting automatically purged at frequency of normal lifespan is a problem simply because their already ridiculous power, influence, and corruption stemming from it will be able to infinitely escalate.

Teal
Feb 25, 2013

Man, future fucking sucks.


ZorajitZorajit posted:

Just finished the first episode. I'm... not enjoying this. I felt like the amount of exposition was several dump trucks too much. The aesthetic was like a parody of Blade Runner's neon streets when it wasn't the Jetsons. And the tone with Edgar Allen Poe the AI was twee AND edgelording at once.

I don't want to rain on anybody's parade. But this disappointed me.

I completely agree the amount of exposition the show has to do is completely ridiculous and unbalanced and I'd simply blame this on them trying to cram too much of the original material into too short of a run-time. Poe was rad, though, and while I agree he might have seemed excessively bizarre in contrast of all the other poo poo the show unloaded on you at once, I enjoyed him as a thing.

Teal
Feb 25, 2013

Man, future fucking sucks.


SalTheBard posted:

Most people can afford to be resleeved they just get low quality bodies. Only the Meths can afford satellite backups (to backup the stack in case it is destroyed) and clones (so that they can live forever). You can resleeve into a clone as many times as you want, non clones you are limited to roughly 10.

I think they explained that the reason why people who can't live forever by resleeving into other regular bodies is that if you do resleeve into bodies other than you've been used to, you eventually go insane from it (as shown by Dimi) and presumably the effect in most is such that you're eventually just too sick and tired to do it again. Meanwhile clones don't have that effect, so if you can afford actual clones, it's all good forever.

Teal
Feb 25, 2013

Man, future fucking sucks.


Josh Lyman posted:

If I'm not mistaken, Iridium level meant they real death'd, right?

Honestly I'm not completely clear on this; maybe I'm just a confused idiot but that whole deal about why are the whores actually dying was a bit confusing to me. I thought the previous levels just were in VR, or with synths, and the point of Iridium was that it was a real person in a sleeve and if you RD'd in Iridium they'd cover your rear end but it wasn't an intended feature. If they were trying to market real death every time, they could just use whores with a backup, couldn't they? I thought that the reason why they didn't actually respin the whores even when they didn't get RD'd was that it was simply cheaper to do it that way than to actually buy the new sleeves all the time when you could instead hire a whore, let her get offed, and never pay any of them.

Teal
Feb 25, 2013

Man, future fucking sucks.


Bobbin Threadbare posted:

That's why I said it doesn't work as a form of punishment either, at least compared to the conditions of any actual prison. Hell, you can't even use them as prison labor when they're frozen in time, and even if you lease out their bodies I'm sure you could have them doing menial desk jobs in VR or sleeve them into primitive bodies to do something dangerous and lousy like picking fruit or running an asbestos mine. So it's not even about this being the most cynical of all futures here.

Well, losing your sleeve is the "labor" - you can go in healthy and young and end when coming out end up with some addicted (the story mentions these carry over) crack whore that will keel over and die in a month (in which case as far as I understand you don't get squat all and if you can't afford a new sleeve, just end up kinda limbo-dead).

Another issue is that if you keep resleeving into new, mismatched bodies, you will go insane, so it's not like you can keep doing that forever.

Generally though even the "gutter" areas in the story don't really seem bad in this I am just going to presume it's a post-scarcity world where the real concerns of people are no longer "am I going to be able to afford food".

Also, Kovacs, being an envoy probably meant that his "hasn't woken up in 250 years" treatment might have been a special case. Who knows if all the common criminals aren't on forced labor sentences providing tech support or making advertising phonecalls.

Teal
Feb 25, 2013

Man, future fucking sucks.


Ugly In The Morning posted:

Why would you need indentured servants when you have AI and robots are a thing?

...filling in captcha?

Teal
Feb 25, 2013

Man, future fucking sucks.


Dahbadu posted:

The Expanse is better, but The Expanse is really loving good. People should watch it.

Teal
Feb 25, 2013

Man, future fucking sucks.


Lobster God posted:

Not sure the melding of the Envoys and Quellists really worked.

They didn't quite merge them though, did they? He was doing the "Envoy" thing with the empire; the whole "needlecast interstellar deathsquad" deal. It's just, they just kinda degraded the imperial deathsquad to kinda lame and also stole the name because I guess "Envoys" sounds hella cool and they didn't want the less thoughtful viewers end up with the impression of "wait, the deathsquad jig was actually cooler tho?".

I did hate the quellist bits and definitely wish there was less of it and done better, but I still feel like it's relevant they weren't quite blend of the two distinct concepts in the previous one, they just shifted some of the "cool bits" from the teleporting nazis to the treehugger hippies.

Teal
Feb 25, 2013

Man, future fucking sucks.


Boris Galerkin posted:

During the scenes where they were training for interrogation, I thought it was either stated or implied that Kovacs was one of the "good guys" before he joined whatever terrorist organization he joined. The woman in charge of the training was telling the story about her friend who was being interrogated by the "good guys" and how she tricked them into getting all the VIP military officers into one room and then she blew herself up and killed all of them. Kovacs said something about how he was sent out of the room, because he wasn't important enough to stay.

Yeah but I thought (I haven't read it, I'm piecing this together from posts here and summaries of the book elsewhere) that's what the
Envoys were in the book; the "good guy" death squad for crushing resistance and suppressing planetary dissent. He still started like that in the movie and they still had the whole "trained to quickly adjust to resleeving" stuff, just the kung fu, torture resistance and the name got offloaded onto the rebels.

Teal
Feb 25, 2013

Man, future fucking sucks.


Does the book ever touch on the dichotomy of "Artificial copy of consciousness vs. Canned soul" at all? Because the show seems a little bit confusing in that regard. The Meths can keep backups somewhere in sky servers but for example when Lizzie beams up to the sky brothel, her old stack "empties" itself; goes "dead" why would it have to when Meths can apparently just upload a copy to the cloud?

Also, I presume the primary stack has to be on that specific vertebra to be close to the brain to be able to maintain an always up-to-date copy of the consciousness in real time, but could somebody who can't afford a back up satellite just keep another "non-real-time" copies in a chip lets say; embedded in their buttcheek which nobody would expect and fail to properly kill them, going only for the primary one? Are buttcheeks an adequate storage for one's soul? Also, it's illegal to double-sleeve and grounds for RD, but is it illegal for your in the cloud copy to do something in VR? What if I'm a meth and wanted it the other way and instead of syncing the cloud, kept the "persistent" consciousness in the cloud and synced the body once once upon a time?

Teal
Feb 25, 2013

Man, future fucking sucks.


Neddy Seagoon posted:

She read the book, and she still didn't get the point of it.

I love she also missed that Takeshi Kovacs wasn't fully Asian either; his Dad was Polish (at least the show mentioned it explicitly I think, in the book it might have been only implicit); Kovacs is the Polish equivalent of Smith.

Teal fucked around with this message at Feb 5, 2018 around 21:21

Teal
Feb 25, 2013

Man, future fucking sucks.


Mooktastical posted:

In the book do they explain how Rei got a hold of a little girl's sleeve? I'm assuming their society has similar rules w/r/t juvenile criminal law, and therefore she's not a long term prisoner. Following from that, I'm guessing it was some hosed up kidnapping/body purge operation just so she could mind gently caress Tak for a 5 minute conversation.

I just presumed she had it lab grown like all the "regular" clones of herself? Did the show ever imply any rules against that? I thought it was just prohibitively expensive, and I don't even see a reason why would it need to be explicitly illegal if you didn't use it specifically to impersonate somebody else.

Teal
Feb 25, 2013

Man, future fucking sucks.


Hammerstein posted:

Meths getting bored in a universe where interstellar travel is a possibility

Keep in mind even needlecast ie the "teleporting just the soul" option is still limited to speed of light so a there-and-back trip to Proxima Centuari from Earth; the closest star to our solar system, still means you miss out 9 years of what's happening on Earth. Sure, it will seem like an instant to you, but I imagine that Meths will be in constant fear that somebody will pull the carpet from beneath them at home and topple their empire or whatever, so I doubt many of them will be willing to actually make the trip.

Lets face it; how many of the super-rich on Earth are any form of adventureous with their time and money? And that's people who have a reason to hurry.

And finally, we're only shown a small slice of the world; there might be thousands of Meths pioneering galaxy in robots or bzip bzapping around worlds; they aren't that relevant to the story because they aren't the ones causing trouble.

Teal
Feb 25, 2013

Man, future fucking sucks.


Okay thanks for clarifying the needlecast being FTL; nevermind that then.

On the note of erasure for double sleeving; how exactly did the show justify Kovacs got away with it with zero trouble whatsoever, only having to concede one of the copies had to die? I could imagine some leeway about it if they could prove all the insane Rei poo poo but specifically in case of "iced forever" terrorist that only got pardoned by corrupt meddling of a Meth that just got jailed as well? I mean, how did Kovacs get away with everything? Just in the finale;

- double sleeving (apparently grounds for real execution even in regular people, not even space terrorists?)
- creating a fast-bake clone of himself on an illegal 3D printer stolen from police evidence storage
- killing (even if only soft-killing) like, million people with the authority of ??? (I guess that one can be written off as a bright AnCap future of very broad definition of "self defense" considering how easily could Poe turn the lobby into a killing ground)
- illegal gun ownership
- messed with active investigation in like, million ways

I'm sure I'm missing quite a few

Teal
Feb 25, 2013

Man, future fucking sucks.


Neddy Seagoon posted:

The problem is being on top of a building isn't actually isolated. It's just being on top of a huge-rear end building staffed by thousands of people working every day. Being on a private island out in the bay tells you much more about the Bancrofts being in their own isolated world, observing the city (and mankind at large) from the outside.

Who says the middle 100 floors aren't inaccessible void/storage/factories crewed only by machines. The skyscraper gains a bit different meaning if you always fly to the tip in a flying car and/or teleport your soul.

Teal
Feb 25, 2013

Man, future fucking sucks.


Clearly the only good solution would have been to make Kovacs resleeve as a black man and make a whole lot of extremely inappropriate penis size jokes.

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Teal
Feb 25, 2013

Man, future fucking sucks.


NowonSA posted:

I was kind of sad that after we see Kovac's do feats like manage the lobby fight and predict his future partner was gonna rush him, he got caught by surprise pretty frequently, with the stripper ambush being the most glaring one. Given the murder spree we see at the clinic and how much he tells us he's programmed to see people as tools, be ruthless when necessary, etc., as soon as she had the words "They made me" out of her mouth he should've been throwing haymakers, drawing guns, etc.

I'm willing to attribute that one to him getting a bit lost in the I'm Lizzie's Mum roleplay but they did pull the carpet from beneath him a bit too often, that's true.

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