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Proteus Jones
Feb 28, 2013





Hair Elf

drunkill posted:


Should I read the book?
Sure, if you want to. The books aren't amazing but they're pretty decent cyberpunk/sci-fi reads.

LOL. The first book is amazing. The next two are goodish to good.

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Proteus Jones
Feb 28, 2013





Hair Elf

Josh Lyman posted:

Iím not optimistic about it being released Super Bowl weekend. Counter programming and later streaming and all that is fine but the first weekend hype seems to do a lot for viewership. Itís like any other TV series: youíre forcing it to start slow and hopefully build.

Friday and Saturday is plenty for binge watchers, and probably enough to hook any people who watch at more leisurely pace.

Proteus Jones
Feb 28, 2013





Hair Elf

McCoy Pauley posted:

I'd suggest that, depending on what one enjoyed about Altered Carbon, the next two books are even better. I liked the noir elements in Altered Carbon just fine, but most enjoyed the hints of world building concerning the Martians and Quell -- both of those elements were expanded on and developed in interesting ways in the next two books (particularly the Martian stuff in Broken Angels). If anyone read Altered Carbon and liked those two things, it's definitely worth reading the next two. The sex scenes remains dreadful, but that just seems to be Morgan's deal, I guess.

Cautiously looking forward to this series, but some of the basic changes they've made to some characters from Kovacs's past sound pretty dumb and unnecessary from the previews I've read.

I can respect that. Personally, I was disappointed the next two stepped away from the noir styling. While good and worth reading, the next two just didn't grab me like the first did. It's been *ages* since I read them, so maybe on re-read I'll have a different opinion.

Proteus Jones
Feb 28, 2013





Hair Elf

McCoy Pauley posted:

Yeah, one thing that anyone wanting to read the whole trilogy should know is that each book is effectively a different genre. The first is a noir detective story, the second is a mashup of war and archaeology adventure, and the third is a heist book. I enjoyed that each presented a different style, but I'd also welcome Morgan cranking out some more noir cyberpunk stuff. Or maybe just a book about the Martians and/or Quell (if he could leave out the sex stuff).

Yeah, I really feel if he could dial back (at the very least) on the sex, Altered Carbon could easily be a modern science fiction classic. Everything Not Awkward Sex Scene in the book just so good.

Proteus Jones
Feb 28, 2013





Hair Elf

1st episode did a good job at laying out the premise and dropping crumbs backstory.

I'm really enjoying the style of how the narrative is being presented, and the look is fantastic.

Proteus Jones fucked around with this message at Feb 2, 2018 around 09:19

Proteus Jones
Feb 28, 2013





Hair Elf

HardKase posted:

I really enjoyed that first episode. Why does it remind me of the expanse?

Probably because they actually spent time and money to create a real atmosphere and environment for the show to breathe and grow.


E: I'm also liking how it's showing as opposed to doing info dumps. There's a lot of important pieces to understanding this world that you pick up contextually rather than a 3rd party giving a bunch of "well you see..."

Proteus Jones fucked around with this message at Feb 2, 2018 around 09:31

Proteus Jones
Feb 28, 2013





Hair Elf

They have perfectly captured how much an rear end in a top hat Kovacs can be. This is exceeding my expectations so far.

Proteus Jones
Feb 28, 2013





Hair Elf

Re ep 4.

Pretty drat brutal, but I'm glad they didn't hew to certain scenes exactly as they are in the book. That might have been problematic.

Proteus Jones
Feb 28, 2013





Hair Elf

HardKase posted:

Just finished episode 10 I actually like Bancroft. Sure he killed that girl, but he was under the influence of drugs administered without his consent. I hope they let him off.

Finished it. I never thought they would ever be able to be as faithful to the book as this show was. Well, not and make a GOOD show.

Overall, I was very pleased with this. There were a few stumbles, but still one of the better shows I've seen.

Proteus Jones
Feb 28, 2013





Hair Elf

Bobbin Threadbare posted:

You know, I still don't get that about the Altered Carbon universe; how the hell is freezing your personality for hundreds of years the new best form of punishment? I mean, sure, "alien body, alien world" would be a real shock when you wake up a few decades or centuries later, but that pales compared to what can happen in a real prison and it doesn't give the prisoner the motive or opportunity to reform. Plus the setting includes virtual reality, so it's not like they couldn't combine punishment/reform with the whole leasing-out-the-body thing. Hell, body leasing aside, people do the exact same thing out of boredom in Fear and Loathing in the Magic Kingdom. It feels like the system was put in place so that the main body-swapping conceit could happen rather than because anyone in-universe thought this was a better system for punishing criminals.

Having your stack on ice isn't just downtime. It's been a while, but I'm pretty sure the time is spent alternating between suspension and being spun up into VR "rehab" depending on sentence. And from the context the "rehab" is less than pleasant at it's best and living hell at it's worst.

Proteus Jones
Feb 28, 2013





Hair Elf

Bobbin Threadbare posted:

I specifically remember that Kovacs was told to calm himself down before going into storage because the emotional state he was in when he went under would be the same as when he came back out. And that, to him, no time had passed between the moment he started his sentence and the moment he was revived on Earth. But then I only read the first book; is this maybe something that got retconned in later?

I'm probably mixing up criminal sentences and murder victim rehab or something. Or making it up whole cloth in my head due to bad memory.

It would probably be risky for an Envoy to be spun up anyhow, since they can subvert VR.

Proteus Jones
Feb 28, 2013





Hair Elf

Dahbadu posted:

Also, this. The Expanse is better, but The Expanse is really loving good. People should watch it.

Agreed. This may be my favorite Netflix show, but The Expanse and Legion are still way ahead of it.

It's good and I liked it overall, but it's not as good narratively as The Expanse, or as mind-blowingly incredible as Legion. It had all the ingredients to do both, but just fell short.

Proteus Jones
Feb 28, 2013





Hair Elf

Bobbin Threadbare posted:

What's kind of ironic is that AI eventually won, since the moment you leave your original meat brain you qualify as an artificial intelligence.

We prefer the term Synthetic Intelligence

THEY. I MEAN THEY PREFER SI.

Proteus Jones
Feb 28, 2013





Hair Elf

Development posted:

Just wrapped up the series. I am still sort of baffled by Rei's choices to make this empire, especially with having this paradise for Meths where they can fulfill their fantasies with even...children. She built it simply so that she and her brother could live a better life...the Meth life? Bitch, everyone knows mo' money, mo' problems.

She's been broke brain since she was a little girl and Yakuza snatched her up. She was probably a bit mad before from witness her father dump her mother's body and all the beatings, but I'm guessing the Yakuza is what pushed her over the edge and made her psychotic. Add that to hundreds of years using not only a clone, but other sleeves have well and truly hosed her head.

When they joined the Quellists in the forest on Hanlon's World she was fully fixated on Her and Tak and gently caress everyone else. I mean she basically slaughtered kids when she unleashed the virus in the camp. Running a brothel that caters to the most base clientele is not really out of character. Nor is gaining leverage over the Meths to amass power.

Proteus Jones fucked around with this message at Feb 4, 2018 around 01:16

Proteus Jones
Feb 28, 2013





Hair Elf

Leathal posted:

[...]when they revealed his sister was alive and also the Big Bad responsible for literally everything, which was a really unsatisfying resolution to the mysteries they set up in the earlier episodes.

The book does it in a much more satisfying way. They really swerved hard on some of the backstory and later plot points.

I still liked it overall, but the back half had some really frustrating choices made in terms of plot and delivery.

Proteus Jones
Feb 28, 2013





Hair Elf

navyjack posted:

I think I might do a ďLetís ReadĒ of Altered Carbon with some extra highlighting of where the books and show diverge.

Iíd be down to follow along. Just link it here when you get it set up.

Proteus Jones
Feb 28, 2013





Hair Elf

Spatula City posted:

Everything is ludicrously on-the-nose in this series, it's kind of great. If there's any complaints I have about it, it's that it sort of loses the plot of the Bancroft mystery, and then belatedly remembers to wrap it up.

Also, jfc Kovacs' sister is just a complete irredeemable demon shitbird. Like, when we come back to Bancroft near the end, it really makes him, and even his wife seem likable and human by comparison. It was EXTREMELY on the nose to make Kovacs' sister the complete embodiment of everything Quell feared.
I think it's fascinating that possibly like, at max 3 of the main cast will appear in season 2. If Kinnaman returns, it'll be as Elias Ryker, and they'll either get a new guy for Kovacs, or have him played by the same guy who played OG Kovacs. Ortega could come back, I guess. but Rei, her crazy henchman, and Poe are dead, and Elliot's plot is wrapped up, as is the Bancrofts'.


in re: Rei. NO BODY STACK FOUND, NO DEATH. She also strikes me as someone who would absolutely double-sleeve. The rules are completely out the window with how far the show diverged from the book by that point.

I'm not saying (and I'm definitely hoping not) this is likely. But it's an easy/convenient mis-step the show could make.

Proteus Jones
Feb 28, 2013





Hair Elf

Mooktastical posted:

In the book do they explain how Rei got a hold of a little girl's sleeve? I'm assuming their society has similar rules w/r/t juvenile criminal law, and therefore she's not a long term prisoner. Following from that, I'm guessing it was some hosed up kidnapping/body purge operation just so she could mind gently caress Tak for a 5 minute conversation.

Well in the 1st episode the little girl sleeved into an old woman was on ice because of some accident. Since Rei can alter the database to make the hooker fake Neo-Catholic, I imagine it's not hard misroute a sleeve of a child, or at least get the DNA to make clones

Proteus Jones
Feb 28, 2013





Hair Elf

Moreau posted:

I enjoyed the show and was really blown away by Joel and Martha as Kovacs and Ortega. The only major issue I had was the sound mix didn't seem very clear, I had to keep switching subtitles on.

5.1? Your speakers may need calibration. It makes a HUGE difference with 5.1/7.1 setups. Most amplifiers these days have some sort of auto calibration built in where you can place a little condenser mic (my Dennon amp cam with the mic and it has camera mount threading on it) at various listening hotspots while it plays tones across the speakers. Check your manual.

I didn't have any issues with the sound quality when I watched.

Proteus Jones
Feb 28, 2013





Hair Elf

Kegslayer posted:

Being in another body is a well established science fiction trope and a whole bunch of movies and television series have been able to portray the same idea in different ways.

But yes the whole point of the story is that ethnicity fundamentally means nothing anymore which is why he cannot be played by an Asian guy and must be played by a white guy.

lol

Proteus Jones
Feb 28, 2013





Hair Elf

Kulkasha posted:

I really liked this show, flaws and all. I just have a few nagging problems:
1.Why aren't all the meths/soldiers/etc in synth bodies? Superstrong, can change appearance on the fly, crazy Ghost in the Shell poo poo, so why stick with meticulously assembled clones?
2.Why don't the Meths have backups for their backups, like a yearly recode on multiple satellites in orbit around Jupiter or something? That seems short-sighted for dudes who live potentially forever.
3.When the Rawlings Virus begins affecting the cortical stack, why is it also affecting the sleeve? Wouldn't it be non-symptomatic? I thought the stacks were just data backups, not CPUs for otherwise biologically normal humans.
4.Cult Assassin Dude seemed kinda bland. I'd figure there would be more flavor mileage for the show to have something like mini cults popping up around worshipping the Meths, not just one slimy dude.


1 - Itís only through using an actual bona-fide clone that you can be effectively immortal. As far as soldiers, I imagine thereís a drawback of some kind. I canít remember if itís explained in the book or not (itís next up in re-read queue for me).
2 - No loving idea. Obviously RK Morgan isnít a paranoid IT type.
3 - In the case of the Rebel Forest Base, I think RV was delivered by a biological vector that caused a violent psychosis. But apparently RV alone is a cognitive(?) virus since they were able to corrupt Reiís backup by piggy backing it onto her stack backupís needlecast. This is probably another thing that will be more clear on a re-read.
4 - Agreed.

Proteus Jones
Feb 28, 2013





Hair Elf

Fututor Magnus posted:

does "religious programming" mean that the DHF would never pass on to another sleeve? so is a person whose done some of that religous programming to their stack, do they real death when they die?

Well itís not religious programming, itís like a flag set in the meta-data of the stack. It identifies that person as basically opting in to Real Death, and that they are not to be spun up into VR or another sleeve under any circumstances. Prop 653 is what all the riots are about and the impetus behind Rei doping Bancroft with the Stallion drug so she can get blackmail material form him to influence the Prop not passing. It basically carves out an exemption for cases of fatal organic damage, allowing the cops to spin up victims. The Neo Catholics are freaking out about it since they believe their souls are damned if that happens.

Proteus Jones
Feb 28, 2013





Hair Elf

vseslav.botkin posted:

Does the book get into the implications of the backups at all? There's a clear logical transfer between the consciousness of the sleeve and the stack or something like needlecasting, but I would think a lot of people would have trouble buying the argument that even a perfect copy of you from twelve hours ago still counts as you.

Your post is basically the non-sectarian version of the Neo-Catholic view on re-sleeving or being spun up into a VR post-mortem.

So yeah, there are likely people with this view. But they are probably even more in the minority than the Neo-Catholics.

Proteus Jones
Feb 28, 2013





Hair Elf

Neddy Seagoon posted:

The problem is being on top of a building isn't actually isolated. It's just being on top of a huge-rear end building staffed by thousands of people working every day. Being on a private island out in the bay tells you much more about the Bancrofts being in their own isolated world, observing the city (and mankind at large) from the outside.

But they arenít looking to remove themselves from the world. They are above the world, but still of it. All that they survey is theirs to do with as they see fit.

Itís not about isolation from the plebs, itís about raising themselves to heights unobtainable for the regular person. They are future gods ruling over the Earth from future Olympus.

Proteus Jones
Feb 28, 2013





Hair Elf

Gyges posted:

Yeah, I get that. I was thinking more his non-Envoy CV of working with some rebels, a little terrorism, and general assholery. Surely there's some dudes available who are actual detectives or otherwise top notch investigators that one of the richest guys in the galaxy could turn to before an elite soldier.

Envoys are far more than elite soldiers.

As far as why Kovacs, he was in ice and could be needlecast to Earth for immediate decanting. Plus, Bancroft being able to hold a pardon over his head moved him to the top of the list.

Proteus Jones
Feb 28, 2013





Hair Elf

Avasculous posted:

Although skinhead grandma was amazing.


I donít know who that actor was, but I hope he has a successful career because he was absolutely fantastic.

Proteus Jones
Feb 28, 2013





Hair Elf

Platystemon posted:

No, they donít sexually assault a young girl on screen. Joel Kinnaman is the only actor who plays Kovacs in the Wei Clinic virtual torture scenes.

tbf in the book it's not child. It's small statured woman of around 20, if I recall correctly. I haven't done a full re-read, but I had to recently look up the passage for someone else.

Proteus Jones
Feb 28, 2013





Hair Elf

Ugly In The Morning posted:

All three books do their own thing. Itís not like he was out of ideas and cranking them out for contract purposes, though, they all explore different aspects of the setting with the genre shift and theyíre all really good.

Agreed. I love all three, but I freely admit to being disappointed they didn't all go for the noir detective vibe. It's kind of a "I love all my kids, but in my heart of hearts I love Altered Carbon the most"

Proteus Jones
Feb 28, 2013





Hair Elf

Lt. Danger posted:

A lot of complaints boil down to "it was different in the book". It's not really a criticism and it is not important to know what stacks are supposed to look like or how Reaper really works. Similarly, if the show has changed who the Envoys were or what Bancroft is like as a person then it might be worth thinking about what that might mean.

I do get what youíre saying, but a lot of the ďit was different in the bookĒ are divergences that fundamentally change the narrative. I understand that some things need to change when transitioning to visual medium. Backstory is compressed, plot elements combined, certain subplots removed or changed altogether, I get that. But some of the changes made are baffling and inept.

The most bizarre to me is Is changing the Envoys to some militant, hippy Jedis. To top it off, they were a rebellion localized to a single planet. All of them were apparently wiped out except Kovacs. 2 centuries later, other than *maybe* a Meth with a penchant for another planets history, who on a completely different planet going to even know enough to be as scared of an Envoy as some seem to be? Itís done for no reason other than to shoehorn Quellcrist directly into the story (and donít get me started on her portrayal).

It would have been far better to leave Envoyís as they were. The ultimate Big Stick of the UN Protectorate. Individuals who are so dangerous and effective theyíre used to quickly and completely overthrow local governments. A group that is still in use and known, so that when an Envoy actually shows up itís time for some pants-wetting terror based on their reputation through all of Protectorate Space. lovely forest Jedis of the past from a distant planet just donít have the same cachet.


The least consequential is Kovacs with the backpack full of chems. Not in the book, but it was amusing. Same with abuela.

Thereís a whole spectrum in between those two that vary in terms amusing/clever to annoyance.

Donít get me wrong. In general, despite ep 7 and other glaring flaws, I *liked* the show. Itís just thereís a lot of mis-steps and inexplicable changes that keep it from being truly great. Also, thereís frustration that because of this theyíve completely hosed themselves in making any kind of decent adaptation of the other two books.

Proteus Jones fucked around with this message at Feb 11, 2018 around 12:03

Proteus Jones
Feb 28, 2013





Hair Elf

General Battuta posted:

No, he knows he IS the original. He made the plan. He has all those memories (and all the memories of being an Envoy, and everything before and after.) He's the Real Kovacs and so is the other fork. Neither one is 'just a copy', any more than you're 'just a copy' of yourself from yesterday.
Exactly. If I lose a copy of my tax information and I restore it from a backup, itís not faux version of my tax documents. It *IS* my tax documents in every way that matters. If I copy it to another location, that copy is *equally* my tax information that coexists with the other.

The hill to get over is the one of ďHow can *I* be ME and the other also be ME simultaneously?Ē Our entire existence is one of a singular ME, we simply have no framework to understand existing as non-integrated plurality.

Proteus Jones
Feb 28, 2013





Hair Elf

Ravenfood posted:

Yeah, absolutely I think I'd take the deal if I believed it was genuine and risk-free. As far as I can tell, it'd be like going to sleep and waking up somewhere slightly differently. You're adding bio-functions to this: what aspects of the body continuing to function is required for you? Its Theseus' ship again, but with people. I'm attributing the "self" to be consciousness, which is why there can be multiple "me's", though we cease to be the same person as soon as experiences, even those not remembered, diverge (this is why Dimi and his double-sleeved self are, in my opinion, different people). You're tying it into more than consciousness, but not really defining it. Do you need a pulse? To be breathing? Do those organs need to be "yours"? What meat-parts are sufficient to meet the criteria for being "you"? How does that differ from sleeping, or from having a pulseless cardiac arrest and being resuscitated, or from having bypass surgery, or an organ transplant? How is having your consciousness transferred to an identical clone different from, for instance, having every possible organ and tissue transplanted separately? Remember, we're assuming that whatever function the brain does or has as far as consciousness goes can be completely taken over by DHF stacks since that's what's we're presented with in-universe, so we could, in theory, transplant brains. Would that person be "you" since everything was done one at a time?

This is a good distinction.

This is actually addressed in the book. Kovacs-PRIME actually says that in dual sleeving they were technically different people. Kovacs-SECONDARY says thatís all kinds of bullshit and that their sense of self is shared across the the weight of 40 years of subjective life. Most vitally the crucial, foundational years of their development are the same for each of them. SECONDARY says that even a few days will make no demonstrable differences between the two of them.

This immediately leads into the ďwho gets to keep goingĒ when their scheme is done. Since they canít lie to each other, PRIME says they decide which set of memories they think are more important. At some point in the conversation Rock-Paper-Scissors comes up. They finally end up punting until after everything is done, because if things go certain ways it would render the entire question moot.

Proteus Jones
Feb 28, 2013





Hair Elf

We are the sum of our state changes in Planck time.

Proteus Jones
Feb 28, 2013





Hair Elf

bring back old gbs posted:

In the book does the daughter get caught in her mothers sleeve by Kovaks? Because that made resleeving seem pretty pedestrian, even if they are rich. More like a high end designer dress or sports car.

No.

There is something sort of similar, but Bancroft's children are only mentioned and not part of the story.


EDIT: The existential dread in this thread is hilarious.

Let me lob a couple grenades.

Our consciousness is emergent behavior as a result of the running state of a pile of meat and electrochemical processes. We are deterministic machines who's actions are channeled through a lifetime of operant conditioning by external factors. "Free will" is post-hoc rationalization of actions already taken. Getting tied up in "identity of consciousness" is a trap since there's no such thing.

A copy of pure fidelity of our run-state is indistinguishable from the "original". There is no faux copy. There is no copy. There is, instead, multiple "you's" that exist in a non-integrated fashion. Both are as valid as the other.

Oh, we are also certainly living in a simulation.

Proteus Jones fucked around with this message at Feb 14, 2018 around 14:12

Proteus Jones
Feb 28, 2013





Hair Elf

There Bias Two posted:

Is it ever explained how planetary colonies were established in the first place? I get that needlecasting allows ftl travel of a sort, but how'd they put the infrastructure there in the first place?

They don't in the show.

But in the book:

Automated colony ships. They'd fly out to the location indicated on the charts found on Mars. It would set up a needlecaster in orbit and then hunker down and observe the planet for several years. Once all the data was analyzed they'd start needlecasting people to the ship which would decant them into sleeves that had been in cryo.

The process could take decades. Maybe even centuries.

Proteus Jones
Feb 28, 2013





Hair Elf

Honestly isn't there a "You Can't Philosophy" thread to have this navel gazing conversation?

Proteus Jones
Feb 28, 2013





Hair Elf

Well, Altered Carbon thread, it appears you have run your course.

Having exhausted speculation on how season 2 will be impacted based on the divergence the show has taken, the conversation has taken a turn on a slap fight of who can have the last word in babby's first philosophy.

See you next season.

Proteus Jones
Feb 28, 2013





Hair Elf

Neddy Seagoon posted:

More like about 60-70%, due to some laughably terrible alterations to Kovacs' origins amd various characters.

70% on the high side is probably too generous. 60% true to the book is probably about right.

Proteus Jones
Feb 28, 2013





Hair Elf

There Bias Two posted:

Is this why episode 7 was such poo poo?

YEP

Proteus Jones
Feb 28, 2013





Hair Elf

Zaphod42 posted:

Hate to keep harping on the same subject since I've kinda said all I can about it

No you donít. Just when we think youíve cleared the thread and we can start talking about the show and book and the potential impact on adapting the other books, you come charging back with multiple back to back posts youíve been spending your away time on.

And you will keep coming back until you get the last the word, which I guess means you win?

Stop it. Or better yet start a thread the existential dread you seem to be suffering from. Or not. I donít care.

Just go away and stop making GBS threads up this thread.

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Proteus Jones
Feb 28, 2013





Hair Elf

Caganer posted:

Thatís super cool. So the martians had stargates and spaceships and poo poo but no stacks? Weird.

That very thing is brought up in the second book. Briefly in a conversation, not a major plot point.

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