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I had read a review or two about the show that complained that the show took it's technology and came to the conclusion that immortality was bad. Having watched it, to me it seems that the show was pretty clear that the issue was rich assholes becoming too powerful and that power leading to corruption. Even good people are corrupted, because the limitless power is just too much. The show even goes out of it's way to give a voice to several people who are in favor of death, and to varying degrees shows how that's not the answer to the problem. As to the problem some people are having with the ending, do the books explain why Rei spins up Takeshi as the solution to Mark Antony's Adventure of the Sealed Room? Making Rei Kovacs' sister at least explains why a Meth would seek out the last remaining super terrorist veteran of a notorious resistance movement with Maoist shading. From what you guys are saying about the character in the books, I'm not sure why she chooses Kovacs to be the patsy investigator to seal up the loose ends of her plan.
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Feb 7, 2018 23:34
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Strom Cuzewon posted:Book spoilers: Not sure she's the one who specifies Tak. I think Bancroft finds him of his own accord. I might be wrong. Yeah, I get that. I was thinking more his non-Envoy CV of working with some rebels, a little terrorism, and general assholery. Surely there's some dudes available who are actual detectives or otherwise top notch investigators that one of the richest guys in the galaxy could turn to before an elite soldier.
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Feb 8, 2018 00:21
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That makes more sense as to why Takeshi.
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Feb 8, 2018 02:03
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Kegslayer posted:Actually a shitload of people around the internet have been up in arms about this to the point where you even have Kalogridis come out and acknowledge that it's a problem but point out that she tried to offset this by having Kovacs also portrayed by two Asian men. I think the problem is that while there is an actual issue here that should be talked about, i.e. there is no reason that the Reiger sleeve needs to be white, a lot of the complaints on the front went a little too overboard. Comparing this to Johanson Major is willfully ignoring any nuance in the issue and dishonestly hand waving huge differences. Altered Carbon had 3 Asian guys an a White dude act the part of Kovacs while also explicitly stating and showing other versions. It also clearly grounds the character as originally being Asian. Meanwhile Ghost In The Shell did just enough legwork to "justify" the Asian lead being a blond White lady to barely count as fig leaf.
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Feb 8, 2018 04:27
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Avasculous posted:It was disappointing if unsurprising that they made Kovacs ultimately go (slightly) antivaxxer just like all the others. How so? His entire plan is to save his sister by using the available tech to give her a couple centuries time out, forcing her to once again be "normal". The overriding push of the show is that the tech isn't actually a problem, it's money and power that corrupt. The Meths are bad not because they're immortal, it's because they're immoral.
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Feb 8, 2018 16:25
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LORD OF BOOTY posted:except they're nazi skinheads that might very well be inhabited by sweet old abuelas. Is it worse to be a member of the master race forced to inhabit a lesser body, or for a nice Mexican lady to take over the drug addled and ruined monument to supremacy you call a sleeve? Fututor Magnus posted:that i honestly never understood, what's the point of even being a racialist in that future where the most masculine aryan physique can contain the mind and personality of, say, a black muslim woman. If Catholics are jumping through hoops to insist that stacks are the work of Satan, there's definitely going to be other groups doubling down on their own philosophy. Gyges fucked around with this message at 22:20 on Feb 8, 2018 |
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Feb 8, 2018 22:17
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Kids seem like an interesting issue when mom or dad get resleeved. Do they just use some of their original sleeve's DNA to make kids or do they just roll with the DNA of the new sleeve. Like the couple that make a living of fighting each other to the death, are their kids just completely genetically unrelated?Fututor Magnus posted:thw catholic stuff makes a lot more sense than nazism, now that you have immortality and "souls" there's a clear vector where catholics can apply their ideology. what can nazis do? what part of one's DHF defines the race, anyway? racial supremacy makes little sense. i can accept that nazis exist even in 2600s because there will always be angry and stupid people, but the ideology itself must have changed a fair bit to accommodate the fact that race is, in a sense, no longer with the same meaning. The Catholic stuff makes surface sense, but falls apart faster than the continued existence of nazis. Catholics are one of the more science embracing factions of Christianity, and while you can certainly argue that stacks contain the soul, all the crazy poo poo you can do like teleporting your consciousness and double stacking simultaneously hinder it. If any strand of Christianity was going to go all in on stacks being the devil's work, it would be one of the Evangelical movements. I also find it highly unlikely it would be just one religious group that ends up with anti stack splinters. Meanwhile American style nazism seems fairly adaptable to the dystopian future where Meths run the world while good ol poo poo kicker boys get the short end of the stick. Hell, there's no way people don't get real pissy about accidentally/being forced by the state ending up in some "lesser" body. But yes, huge swaths of this particular issue are due to visual short hands and the like. Dude should definitely get some sort of recognition for how well he played Abuela in a Nazi's body hanging out with the family. Avasculous posted:"Slightly", because I meant his backstory, where they made the Quellists anti-immortality. They made the Quellists anti-immortality as their final attempt to prevent the rise/continuance of untouchable corporate titans. They were merrily insurging away for quite a while before Quell called them together to talk about the only way to stop super capitalists. Quell publicly and latter privately to Kovacs talks about how money will inevitably corrupt the beautiful gift of the stacks/immortality by returning humanity to a cyber Gilded Age. Kovacs himself isn't sure that the mortality virus is the right answer to the problem. Gyges fucked around with this message at 01:37 on Feb 9, 2018 |
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Feb 9, 2018 01:33
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MrMojok posted:I don’t think Morgan had anything at all to do with the poo poo-stupidity of what they did to the Envoy Corps/Quellists/Rei They most likely changed the Quellists to Envoys because Quellist sounds way, way, way more ridiculous when said out loud than Envoy. They then changed UN Envoys to CTAC, though there seem to be changes around the edges to delineate the the philosophies of the show rebels vs CTAC. Envoys use intense training while CTAC uses drugs. Rei I would have to read the books to care about, but honestly it doesn't seem to make that much of a difference from what you guys have said. Other than what seems to be streamlining the lead in to the overall plot of what they've decided to do with their adaptation. Fututor Magnus posted:i could be a far better future pimp than rey, if you want your workers to be 100% loyal and disposable, why the gently caress would you recruit people who actually have poo poo like family and friends in the outside world. that's no way to run a highly illegal prostitution, rape, and murder business. It did seem needlessly convoluted. Since she apparently has a galaxy spanning enterprise, why not just transfer her snuff actors around the galaxy? No need to create an elaborate cover up, spend time recruiting fresh meat, or explain to your depraved clientele that they didn't actual really kill someone. Needlecast your dead hookers on to the next world, rinse and repeat.
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Feb 11, 2018 04:31
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Some of you guys seem to miss that in the show the Quell rebellion isn't a Harlan's World issue that happened centuries ago. The show changed it to being an actual uprising against the Protectorate with fights on various planets and it's secret base on Harlan's World. In the show Envoys aren't just some backwater Shays' Rebellion, they're a bunch of crazy super guerillas who took on the Protectorate, won a lot, and almost ended immortality. Whether or not that works with the other two books I don't know. However a lot of complaints about the changes are that the changes don't make sense because they're in conflict with the thing they changed. Reaper doesn't work like that in the books, ok but it does work like that in the show and there has yet to be an inconstancy due to the change. Changing the Quell rebels to Envoys similarly seems to only really be a big issue in that the show and book Quell rebellions are vastly different in scale and philosophy. The books probably are better, books usually are. However a lot of the complaints are less about how things don't work in the universe of the show, rather how the adaptation changes conflict with the books.
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Feb 11, 2018 22:20
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Neddy Seagoon posted:Edit: Actually, that raises another big gaping plot hole; Why is Kovacs in storage at all when he's supposed to be part of a terrorist movement against the Protectorate in the series? They RD'd Sarah on general principle to look big and dangerous, yet the actual last Envoy gets Storage because...? They had orders to not real death Kovacs so as to prevent him becoming a martyr. Which was admittedly a fairly weak explanation, making an example by showing CTAC could even take out an Envoy would have made more propaganda sense. Or something, the reasoning was kind of weak, especially since Siro was running point and wants nothing more than to kill Kovacs. Sarah was killed not on principle, but to hurt Kovacs because Siro is an rear end in a top hat and he wasn't allowed to kill Kovacs.
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Feb 12, 2018 10:36
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