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Escobarbarian
Jun 18, 2004


Grimey Drawer
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3Bu2DOM66g

Counterpart is a sci-fi thriller on Starz that focuses on the concept of what if there were two J. K. Simmonses? ok go watch the 3 episodes available now i'll wait

...

welcome back! so by now you know Simmons plays Howard Silk, a low-level employee at a UN-ish agency based in Berlin, who's life is all thrown out of wack when he is introduced to an alternate version of himself and learns about a secret portal under their building, discovered during the Cold War, that takes people to an identical (up until the point they met) dimension. There is a spy plot involving some poo poo going down on the other side and potentially impending conflict between the two universes, but also a lot of time for conversation on what makes people different and alike and whatnot.

I like it a bunch so far, especially Simmons and the teacher from Rushmore as his wife. The creator-showrunner's main work before this was the screenplays for the 2016 Jungle Book and 2009 Street Fighter movies, so to see such a step up is a big surprise.

ok........TALK!

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Croatoan
Jun 24, 2005

I am inevitable.
ROBBLE GROBBLE
Counterpart is fantastic and good. It's like if Fringe and The Americans had a baby and that baby was played by J. K. Simmons.

DarkCrawler
Apr 6, 2009

by vyelkin
This show is Excellent, emphasis on the big E. I mean, J.K. Simmons, the gently caress else you need? Everything else is prime poo poo too though.

Really liked that the latest episode showed more of the differences between the two realities. And an espionage/diplomacy angle is better then the usual interdimensional invasion stuff. And Toby's right, two Earths working together on medicine, science, etc. is worth an insane amount of risk indeed.

DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 18:19 on Feb 6, 2018

HanabaL03
Nov 12, 2003

We're spread, we're spread, we're spreading our.... wings! :v:
What do you guys think Baldwin was implying to Howard when she asked him about their meetpoint?


Also I just realized the actor that plays Peter is Viserys Targaryen.

HanabaL03 fucked around with this message at 18:59 on Feb 6, 2018

Tortolia
Dec 29, 2005

Hindustan Electronics Employee of the Month, July 2008
Grimey Drawer
It's like a really well written and plotted "trust nobody" spy thriller only they added layers of paranoia and deception on top by creating a split within the cast's lifetime so anyone's Other could have been duplicitous all along - or maybe only recently.

I also really like how they frame the parallel universes; it isn't the standard trope where parallel universes still amazingly have roughly the same people at the same places despite massive amounts of changed history. There was one universe, suddenly there were two, and there isn't an "original" and an "alternate" universe. Our perspective is simply based on the meek Howard being our point of view character, no more. Reminds me of Farscape season 3, where there were suddenly two versions of Crichton; it was faulty question to ask which version was the original because there wasn't an actual correct answer to give.

Show's great, they're really moving the plot along, and there was already a second season ordered so there's plenty of time for an audience to build. Looking forward to seeing where they take things.

algebra testes
Mar 5, 2011


Lipstick Apathy
I was completely shook by the twist that the plot was initiated by Real Howards Wife giving intelligence to Other Howard. Or perhaps not it could be a twist.

Also Other Olivia Williams dying knowing that Other Her and Other Howard are still together because Other Her has been lying their entire life. Man there was some really interesting stuff.

edit: and the Plague stuff was introduced well as well. There is a lot I like about this show.

Tortolia
Dec 29, 2005

Hindustan Electronics Employee of the Month, July 2008
Grimey Drawer
Yeah, the way they're just teasing things is impressive.

Obviously both Emilies were involved with high level espionage / Interchange functions, so we can probably assume that she was doing that before the dimensions split. Was the trigger for Other Howard becoming a badass finding out that his Emily was lying to him about everything, or was there another series of events? How much of who we are is based on our actions compared to what is done to us by other people?

Also to make us paranoid about everything, was the pandemic a natural occurrence on the other side, like maybe they got a version of SARS that continued spreading unchecked, or was it a biological attack across the doorway?

Neat stuff.

Tiggum
Oct 24, 2007

Your life and your quest end here.


Tortolia posted:

I also really like how they frame the parallel universes; it isn't the standard trope where parallel universes still amazingly have roughly the same people at the same places despite massive amounts of changed history. There was one universe, suddenly there were two, and there isn't an "original" and an "alternate" universe. Our perspective is simply based on the meek Howard being our point of view character, no more.
Well, there was also a devastating global pandemic on the other side, bad enough that it seems to be a serious crime to not go to a doctor if you get sick.

Hey, I know! To avoid confusion, let's call meek Howard's world "Universe A" and pandemic world "Universe 1".

Tortolia posted:

Also to make us paranoid about everything, was the pandemic a natural occurrence on the other side, like maybe they got a version of SARS that continued spreading unchecked, or was it a biological attack across the doorway?
It seemed (to me) to be implied that it was natural and "our" side got advance warning and medical data because it hit "their" side first, so "we" were able to basically avoid the consequences. Like, it might even have been SARS or bird flu or swine flu or something that, as far as most people on "our" side know, we managed to deal with in time, but secretly the only reason it wasn't worse was because of all the information from the other side.

Trabant
Nov 26, 2011

All systems nominal.
Chiming in to say that this is indeed An Excellent Show and that I'm also disappointed it's not getting more attention.


Tiggum posted:

Hey, I know! To avoid confusion, let's call meek Howard's world "Universe A" and pandemic world "Universe 1".

Or "The Mongooses!"

My wife calls them Barney ("He just looks like a Barney") and Whiplash, respectively. Not sure how we'll differentiate the Emilies just yet.

Blind Rasputin
Nov 25, 2002

Farewell, good Hunter. May you find your worth in the waking world.

I know they are introducing things quite slowly here but do we have a clear idea as to when the gate was created in relation to the lives of all these characters? Were they all in their 20’s at the time I’m guessing?

The director in the post-credits interview of ep 3 also said there are a ton of Easter eggs in the background when Emily is crossing over. I wonder if anyone spotted any or could translate some of the German signs into things. He said there’s a ton of clues there about the origins and who controls what.

Excellent show and I’m super glad there is a thread. I also like it when shows air one episode a week, makes threads better!

Tortolia
Dec 29, 2005

Hindustan Electronics Employee of the Month, July 2008
Grimey Drawer

Blind Rasputin posted:

I know they are introducing things quite slowly here but do we have a clear idea as to when the gate was created in relation to the lives of all these characters? Were they all in their 20’s at the time I’m guessing?

The timeline's already a bit clunky in this regard. Assuming the show also takes place in 2018:

Howard's been at Interchange nearly 30 years.
The split happened during the Cold War.
Baldwin was probably around 10 or 11 when the split happened since she claimed that she was around 9 or 10 when her father died; that was before the split as both versions of her explicitly remember it happening.

So as far as I can peg it we're looking at somewhere between 1987 and 1989. This assumes that they're just fudging the Baldwin timeline (or she looks incredibly young for someone in their late 30s/early 40s). Presumably Interchange either didn't exist prior to the split or was hastily repurposed into its current mission when the split happened; Howard's job for his entire tenure as best we can tell was doing the coded message translation work.

So, yeah, I'm guessing the main cast was all around 10-30 when the divergence occurred.

Lack of Gravitas
Oct 11, 2012

Grimey Drawer
I think Nadia/Baldwin is as young as she looks, even though that'd mean her father died quite some time after the universe split in the 80's. The divergence between the two worlds was slow to begin with so there are going to be some events that occurred more-or-less identically in both timelines.

Chubby Henparty
Aug 13, 2007


Loved loved loved the horsetrading and the paranoid protection of resources and secrets... man imagine finding out that at least twice as many people know about your criminal conspiracy and oh great your counterpart might get to you first

I worry that the drier tinker-taylor parts of the show will doom it :(

Ora Tzo
Feb 26, 2016

HEEEERES TONYYYY

Lack of Gravitas posted:

The divergence between the two worlds was slow to begin with so there are going to be some events that occurred more-or-less identically in both timelines.

That probably depends when the pandemic hit.

algebra testes
Mar 5, 2011


Lipstick Apathy

Chop Sunni posted:

Loved loved loved the horsetrading and the paranoid protection of resources and secrets... man imagine finding out that at least twice as many people know about your criminal conspiracy and oh great your counterpart might get to you first

I worry that the drier tinker-taylor parts of the show will doom it :(

Yeah they creators have read a bunch of Le Carre and Deighton novels that's for sure.

Sekenr
Dec 12, 2013




Tiggum posted:

Well, there was also a devastating global pandemic on the other side, bad enough that it seems to be a serious crime to not go to a doctor if you get sick.

Hey, I know! To avoid confusion, let's call meek Howard's world "Universe A" and pandemic world "Universe 1".

It seemed (to me) to be implied that it was natural and "our" side got advance warning and medical data because it hit "their" side first, so "we" were able to basically avoid the consequences. Like, it might even have been SARS or bird flu or swine flu or something that, as far as most people on "our" side know, we managed to deal with in time, but secretly the only reason it wasn't worse was because of all the information from the other side.

They blame us for the plague with pretty seething hatred at times. I think it was either natural and slipped to their side accidentally or we thrown infected specimens their way as a means to quickly develop the vaccine. Either way the other side is convinced it came from us. Also, it must have been pretty long ago as even decyphering the DNA is apparently their doing.

E: The show is excellent.

Sekenr fucked around with this message at 10:33 on Feb 8, 2018

claw game handjob
Mar 27, 2007

pinch pinch scrape pinch
ow ow fuck it's caught
i'm bleeding
JESUS TURN IT OFF
WHY ARE YOU STILL SMILING
The thing that has me most curious is the fact that census data is such a huge bargaining chip that it was immediately off the table. Like, is that a case of "We don't want you to have intel on our populace", or is something crazier at play with that?

Norwegian Rudo
May 9, 2013

Tiggum posted:

Hey, I know! To avoid confusion, let's call meek Howard's world "Universe A" and pandemic world "Universe 1".

Producers seem to consistently call meek Howard "Howard Prime" in interviews and such, so calling his universe Prime would make sense to me.

Sekenr
Dec 12, 2013




END ME SCOOB posted:

The thing that has me most curious is the fact that census data is such a huge bargaining chip that it was immediately off the table. Like, is that a case of "We don't want you to have intel on our populace", or is something crazier at play with that?

No idea :) But my take was - yes, basically "Show us how hosed you really are".

algebra testes
Mar 5, 2011


Lipstick Apathy
I thought the census data was a case of the two sides are antagonistic and they want to know how many people live in the US because it's practically a form of military intelligence.

edit: Like if they know the population is small enough they can't invade or whatever.

double edit: I also love how they've created a contemporary analogue for the Cold War complete with Rich/Poor dynamics. And the irony of creating an eternal other cold war as a result of the cold war arms race is pretty sweet and delicious.

algebra testes fucked around with this message at 11:00 on Feb 8, 2018

Sekenr
Dec 12, 2013




What do you mean "they invade". It seems more likely the other way around. Both sides know they had a pandemic but apparently we don't know exactly how bad and how fast they are recovering. Thus census data is critically guarded secret so we don't know how weak they really are.

Chef Boyardeez Nuts
Sep 9, 2011

The more you kick against the pricks, the more you suffer.
If there's one cross-over point then there can't really be an invasion because both sides are going to have a nuke buried 30 feet from the door. That said, I'm struggling to find a reason that U.S. Census data would be more valuable than a cure for Hep C.

Party Plane Jones
Jul 1, 2007

by Reene
Fun Shoe

Chef Boyardeez Nuts posted:

If there's one cross-over point then there can't really be an invasion because both sides are going to have a nuke buried 30 feet from the door. That said, I'm struggling to find a reason that U.S. Census data would be more valuable than a cure for Hep C.

If there's only one cross-over point then how did Baldwin get over without being captured? Unless I'm mistaken the first scene with her is in Prime's universe.

Tiggum
Oct 24, 2007

Your life and your quest end here.


Party Plane Jones posted:

If there's only one cross-over point then how did Baldwin get over without being captured? Unless I'm mistaken the first scene with her is in Prime's universe.
Yeah, it definitely seems like there must be more than one way across, although I'm not sure how that would work in terms of who knows about it and how they keep it secret and secure.

Blind Rasputin
Nov 25, 2002

Farewell, good Hunter. May you find your worth in the waking world.

That’s been my question too. How do people cross to spy if it is so tightly regulated. I thought at first that someone like Baldwin would get a visa and then skip out on it but seeing how hard it is to get one that just doesn’t make sense.

But then, if both sides see someone like Baldwin crossed over.. wouldn’t they be apoplectic wondering where the hell the other cross over points are? Unless they just already know there are bunches of them.

Lack of Gravitas
Oct 11, 2012

Grimey Drawer
Food for thought, but I don't think we've seen anyone from the Alpha universe cross over to the Prime universe.

Rocksicles
Oct 19, 2012

by Nyc_Tattoo

Party Plane Jones posted:

If there's only one cross-over point then how did Baldwin get over without being captured? Unless I'm mistaken the first scene with her is in Prime's universe.

She's a black ops merker. She got through on a merking visa and went way off the reservation.

Chef Boyardeez Nuts
Sep 9, 2011

The more you kick against the pricks, the more you suffer.
The existence or ability to create other crossing points would have to be worth all the census data in both worlds.

Open Source Idiom
Jan 4, 2013
I'm super intrigued by the way the passage operates, and the between space.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but when Emily travels through the portal in this episode, she goes first, but when she exits the other side, she's actually the last in line.

Runaway Legs
Oct 11, 2012

Not a hat
Fun Shoe
I'm pretty sure there's someone ahead of her as she steps into the waiting room. Her partner is still behind her when they reach the other side. And yeah, the passage is exciting. If it's so heavily guarded, I wonder why no one in either world seems to discuss how the assassin crossed over? The cops at the beginning of episode one knew her name but not her gender. It seems to me that the only people on (in?) prime who know of her existence is her own team... I think I'm going to have to watch episode one again.

This is is a really good show so far. Extra kudos for letting the germans speak german. Subtitles are probably distracting when you're not used to them. but imo not as distracting as english with german accent.

Blind Rasputin
Nov 25, 2002

Farewell, good Hunter. May you find your worth in the waking world.

I think I figured it out. I rewatched the first scene of episode one. It’s when those cops storm in and find Baldwin dressed as a woman crying in a bathroom surrounded by dead people. If you pay attention to the scenes people wearing masks and the German characters, this takes place over in the alternate (badass JK) world. The investigators believe over there that Baldwin is male and were hoping to arrest her with her visas to prevent her from moving over to our (nice Jk) world. She killed the investigators and leaves that scene with her bag full of visas. She probably used those to get over and continue the plan.

At least I think I follow that scene. When I first saw it it didn’t make any sense but in retrospect it makes a ton of sense now. It almost has to take place over there because of the masks. The writers just wouldn’t use that mechanic without a reason.

I think the plot may very well be, both Emily wives were spies before the branch 30 years ago. Maybe they both got into spying on the other side since then and they got into some intel regarding highest up parts of the Crossing leaders or something. I think the nice JK’s wife was supposed to die in that hit and run and whomever wanted her dead for some spy poo poo is sending Baldwin over to finish the job.

Blind Rasputin fucked around with this message at 14:39 on Feb 11, 2018

Runaway Legs
Oct 11, 2012

Not a hat
Fun Shoe
Something went wrong, forcing The Emilies to trade places 30 years ago. Maybe that's why bad poo poo started to happen, plagues and whatnot. Them switching was such a kick in the continuum that the world began to fork in an accelerated and maybe unpredictable manner. Baldwin's crew is working to correct that mistake. Because the car that hit Emily Prime was not a coincidence.

Howard Prime would probably have been promoted and "evolved" like his counterpart. But the Emelies decided to hold him back, so to speak. Maybe to protect him. Or to preserve him. A safe haven where life was normal.

Your Gay Uncle
Feb 16, 2012

by Fluffdaddy
I hope the universe splits again and we end up with and Orphan Black number of JK Simmons clones.

Blind Rasputin
Nov 25, 2002

Farewell, good Hunter. May you find your worth in the waking world.

I mean this is basically the Fringe without hot blonde and mad scientist. Just so we are clear.

Tiggum
Oct 24, 2007

Your life and your quest end here.


HatJudge posted:

Something went wrong, forcing The Emilies to trade places 30 years ago. Maybe that's why bad poo poo started to happen, plagues and whatnot. Them switching was such a kick in the continuum that the world began to fork in an accelerated and maybe unpredictable manner. Baldwin's crew is working to correct that mistake. Because the car that hit Emily Prime was not a coincidence.

Howard Prime would probably have been promoted and "evolved" like his counterpart. But the Emelies decided to hold him back, so to speak. Maybe to protect him. Or to preserve him. A safe haven where life was normal.
This all seems very unlikely to me. Lots of people seem to have crossed over, and pandemic-Emily didn't seem to be aware of what her counterpart was doing or that Howard-prime had stayed at such a low level. I see no reason to believe that she's not in her own original universe. Also, how would killing either Emily correct anything at this point?

Tortolia
Dec 29, 2005

Hindustan Electronics Employee of the Month, July 2008
Grimey Drawer
How is this show so good? The cast is killing it.

Howard is both :smith: and :unsmith: at the same time.

Blind Rasputin
Nov 25, 2002

Farewell, good Hunter. May you find your worth in the waking world.

JK Simmons is doing an amazing job. He even slouches when he’s playing nice Howard.

The show is really pushing this idea that we are who we are despite circumstances that may shift which direction we’ve gone. Like when nice Baldwin saw herself and said “you’re my true self.” And when Howard punched that dude it was coming out. I love this idea. I can’t wait to see how nice Howard starts to get OP.

Blind Rasputin
Nov 25, 2002

Farewell, good Hunter. May you find your worth in the waking world.

This was a fantastic episode. Learned so much about their world, and Howard’s poor family. So endearing between him and Emily too. What a show.

Accretionist
Nov 7, 2012
I BELIEVE IN STUPID CONSPIRACY THEORIES
This show is really good.

When Second Howard found the box and First Howard was just sitting there, I may have gotten something in both my eyes at the same time.

Accretionist fucked around with this message at 06:50 on Feb 12, 2018

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CeeJee
Dec 4, 2001
Oven Wrangler
Anna had a glass cellphone just like the cop in the show opening, it seems like Prime universe is pretending to be more backward then they are with the 'ooohhh, a smartphone' reaction from the ambassador.

From Howard's reaction to other Emily having malignant hyperthermia it seemed he did not know his Emily had this and this is why she's in a coma after the accident.

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